Team-BHP - EVs: What is the minimum acceptable real-world range for you?

My magic number is 500 km. Mentally, that gives me a lot of peace. But main reason for picking 500 km is that I can do Bombay - Goa. Goa might be a little over 500 km to reach, but I never ever go non-stop. In fact, we take a get out & stretch break every 2 hours. Fast chargers will be commonplace one day and I can top up my EV at the 1-hour long breakfast stop we usually take to eat misal pav + vada pav + black coffee. Or at the 5 stretching stops we take in the entire journey.

500 km range will also mean I charge my car merely once a month :D. Because I have 4 cars and have to TD new launches every other weekend, none of my cars sees over 500 km in any month.

I think that for any EV, last 35-50kms should always be kept as buffer(within city) as its not easy to get a charging point.
On highway drives, this would be 100kms as charging points would be further off.

I've read that manufacturers advise charging up to 80% for maximum battery life. This would further decrease the actual range.

Considering the above points, an EV giving a range of 400kms real time is good for me.
300 km of real drive and additional 100kms reserve.

In our country, average speed of 50kmph can be maintained on long drives and this would equate to 7-8 hours of continuous driving. For me this is good enough for a day.
Anything less than 300 will be difficult as it would start giving me range anxiety soon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddy (Post 5026184)

If I were to buy it today, I'd like the range to be upwards of 500 km.

And it is not because I need that kind of range right now. It is because I am not sure till what time will the battery hold its range. How soon will it deteriorate and start giving me only 50%-60% range, compared to when it was new.

I don't want to be left with 200 Kms range in a two year / 40,000 km old car.

Battery companies like samsung, Lg, Panasonic etc make the Li-on type 18650 cell and anyone can buy them off the shelf and they have a capacity of 250 to 300 cycles (depending on temperature, discharge current) at which point they will still have a capacity of 70%.
So lets say a car with 500km range with the above type cells, will still have a range of 350km even after driving 125k to 150k kms on the odometer.

But car manufacturers like Tesla have even higher charge cycles,( by atleast 100% more) then the off the shelf stuff which for example companies like Ather use.

If car companies start using the cheaper LFP batteries (like model 3 in china), they have lower capacity since each cell has a fully charged voltage of just 3.6v vs 4.2v for the Li-on.
So for the same amount of the battery space, the LFP pack will be of lower capacity. But LFP packs have a 2000 cycle life for a no name chinese brand to about 8000 cycle life for a Sony made ones, the Sony still had 80% capacity even after 8000 cycles. Well known chinese LFP manufacturers are also not far behind Sony.

How to squeeze LFP packs, well any vehicle which has a high ground clearance like SUV, 4x4, buses, trucks can have 2 or even 3 layers of cells, at the cost of ground clearance or in some cases just use up the dead space under the chassis, which is normally filled by the drive shaft.

This is why in china buses use LFP pack. Best part of the LFP is that they don't catch fire, can be charged faster and is also cheaper.

For long trips, we need to have 700+ KM range in current scenario where charging stations are not available and taking 10% factor of safety. I don't know why we can't setup charging stations at existing fuel bunks and highway dhabas? It can be a second income for these people and will equally benefit electric car owners. If adequate charging stations are there then 400 KM range shall be good enough. We can charge our car's batteries while having lunch break.

I believe that after 5 years we will have more efficient batteries with better range, less costly electric cars and more charging facilities in our country. By 2030, I expect 50% sales will be of electric vehicles.

I will be satisfied with an actual range of ~250km(in real world - not the claimed or certified range)

What I am worried about is the life-cycle of the battery. Even though manufacturers claim 80% retention even after 8 years/1 lakh of driving, I highly doubt it, considering Indian(especially Chennai's moist hot climate - where I live) weather and conditions

For example, When I bought the galaxy s9(which uses a 3000mah lithium polymer battery which is supposedly better than lithium ion used in cars), Samsung claimed 95% charge retention even after 1 year of recharging the device everyday once. I took care of it like a baby, still the battery life of the mobile reduced considerably after a year that I had to charge it atleast twice a day.

Now adding it to exposure to 37-44 degree celsius heat, exposure to direct sunlight, bumper to bumper traffic, shocks from the greatest Indian roads and other harsh conditions, I doubt with the current technology, the actual range of the car will be similar even after 2 years or 25k kilometers of driving.

I would prefer atleast 400kms of real world driving range (considering a single car garage).

That means that I can assume a minimum of 250-300 kms range after a couple of years.

I am pretty sure that there would be charging infrastructure in most common routes such as BLR-MAA or HYD-VIJ which would help to topup just incase. Also, for that one off long trip into wilderness I don't mind renting a car (although it would be super cool if there was an addon battery pack which I could rent out and double the range of my EV).

For me, 400-500kms would be a decent range. Though it won't be needed at all times, I don't want to search for a Diesel/Petrol option for once in a while long trip.
For my back, definitely, I would need a break after a long drive.

The car which I currently use has a range of 550km on average with full tank petrol and happy with it.
I remember once driving to Stuttgart along with my colleague in an Audi A4 station wagon. On full tank Diesel, it was showing an enormous range of 1000kms. Even on that trip, we took a few breaks, not for refueling.

For me, That would depend on the price and usage.
If my budget is 10 lakhs or below and used for city commute, I would choose 200km or so.

And if the car is for highway cruising and long distance trips I would need at least 500 km range.
But that is not exactly the case.
Factors which affect the range:
1) Road conditions : from ghat sections, bad roads, traffic density reduces the range significantly
2) Luggage and number of passengers: affects the range again
3) Using AC, and other electrical components too affects the range
4) Driving style : No explanation needed.

This is a video of Mat Watson from Carwow just for an idea
https://youtu.be/ZH7V2tU3iFc

But we cannot compare the video in case of Indian roads.
They can set the cruise control and not turn off for miles together.
In India:
-We have trucks moving along the fast lane
Scooters , bikers ,rickshaws and what not.
-Small towns passing by
-Most importantly “Stop and Proceed” barricade

Considering all these scenarios I do not expect the EVs in India to give me the claimed range.

I voted 300 km range as per my usage. I frequent Delhi -Dehradun once a month otherwise my daily need is rarely close to 120 km.

Practically as I look around in my neighborhood I noticed that a range of 150 km is more that adequate for 90% of them since most of them don't drive out of town. At the max a few might do once a year drive to a neighboring state which would call for 500 km range.
But there is range anxiety in all despite 150 km range comfortably satisfying their 97 to 100% requirements.

The biggest challenge is Price and charging infrastructure.

I think masses in India with a mindset of 'Kitna deti hai' wouldn't mind spending some time at a Fast charging once in a while on an outstation drive if Fast charging infrastructure is in place. At the end of the day they will be happy with the numbers achieved with EV.

The only major obstruction I see for EV cars is the high price point.
More than 80% cars sold are below 9 lacs, it would be difficult to add more than 5 lacs over ICE to switch to EV. This isn't viable for the masses.
I think TATA should offer two different battery packs 150 km and 300 km range, and they should rope in Tigor or Tiago models to bring the Entry price down and reachable to the masses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eddy (Post 5026184)

Well Said Eddy, it is one of the main concerns for me with respect to EV.

If some manufacturer for additional cost during buying itself gives me a assurance says they will replace as the battery technology advances, i am ready to buy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shravansp24 (Post 5026580)

What I am worried about is the life-cycle of the battery.

For example, When I bought the galaxy s9(which uses a 3000mah lithium polymer battery which is supposedly better than lithium ion used in cars)

Now adding it to exposure to 37-44 degree celsius heat, exposure to direct sunlight, bumper to bumper traffic, shocks from the greatest Indian roads and other harsh conditions, I doubt with the current technology, the actual range of the car will be similar even after 2 years or 25k kilometers of driving.

Li-po only advantage is higher capacity and faster charge rate but they have poorer cycle life compared to Li-on. A good reason why tesla doesn't use them.

Cold temperature have a significant effect on batteries not the hotter temperature. Electronics on the other hand such as the motor controller, is the one we should worry about but since many are liquid cooled it shouldnt be a problem.

The primary usage of the car for me is within the city. For intra-city commutes, a car with a range of even 150km is sufficient. With my (pre covid) daily running of about 15 kms a day, that would mean about 2 weeks between charges. The second car in the household can be a low cost city-car with a range of about 150-200km which would be more than enough.

I have fortnightly runs to my hometown which is about 150-200km one-way. Since I will have charging infra in my hometown as well, the EV only needs to have enough range for a one-way run. This would mean that an EV usable on the highway would need a range of atleast 300km in real world terms. The question is whether it is worth it to pay extra for a long range EV just for usage 1-2 times a month.

One way would be to retain an ICE car in the garage which can be the second car and be used for highway runs. I suspect that's what my garage will look like in the next 2 years or so.

The gamechanger (atleast for me) would be if manufacturers enabled "battery-renting" where I can borrow / rent a larger battery for for a fee. Basically purchase the low-end version of the car, and pay to get extra batteries fitted on a rental basis whenever needed. Maybe some manufacturers may even unlock additional battery capacity through software for a fee. This way, we get the best of both worlds - a low enough entry price into the EV world, and an option to get longer range for those odd occassions when needed.

The other concept that has really really intrigued me is a hybrid system similar to Nissan's "e-power" - essentially have an EV whose small batteries are constantly charged by an onboard ICE. I think this kind of a hybrid would really be the best halfway house till EV tech matures and charging infrastructure comes up. Unfortunately, I have only seen Nissan implementing this kind of a hybrid tech. And they dont seem to be keen on launching their "epower" tech in India anytime soon.