Team-BHP > Electric Cars


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 8th October 2021, 11:06   #1
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Ghaziabad
Posts: 61
Thanked: 129 Times
Default EV charging infrastructure - How should a developing country like India establish it?

Good public charging infrastructure is a necessity if the government wants to actually increase EV adoption and, change the perception of people that an EV may leave them stranded. Some car companies are introducing new EVs but many major companies have avoided launching their EVs in India citing low demand but low demand is due to the range anxiety among people. I do not feel that this is a chicken and egg situation where the car companies can cite non-availability of infrastructure as a reason to not launch an EV while the government can say that until demand is there charging infrastructure cannot be established. Easily accessible public charging on highways, malls, transit stations etc. is required if the government really wants to change the perception of public towards EVs and reduce range anxiety. I felt this as my father is currently looking to buy a new car but I cannot suggest him an EV as there are not many options yet (budget is around 10L) and availability of public charging is not good enough. Private companies and some government departments have started working in this direction but due to lack of clear direction from the ministry itself (bio-fuel, no set time limit to phase out fossil fuel vehicles etc.), they are not able to do enough. I know I am not alone in this scenario as many of my friends are excited by EVs but lack of options and charging infrastructure lets them down.

If the government actually wants to build proper charging infrastructure in India, then decisions need to be taken regarding what kind of chargers need to be installed. With newer cars that are being launched internationally, the DC fast charging rate has gone up significantly. As the time and technology progress, more and more of these cars will be launched even in the cheaper price segment and a 50 KW charger will not be enough. Our charging infrastructure needs to be ready and will require innovative solutions for our highways and densely populated cities. There are many options which many experts and companies have thought of but as we are building a new infrastructure which one would be best for us?
  1. Go all in and invest a lot of money to build a good charging network like Tesla has done. Remove old chargers and install new high capacity ones (150 KW or higher) and few very high capacity ones (350 KW or higher) (like GAC Aion or ABB). This requires a lot of investment as higher capacity will require civil work, installation of sub-stations etc. But as the technology is evolving, who knows what will be enough in future, so there may be resistance as amount of money involved in a project like this would be quite high.
  2. Install modular chargers like the company Osprey is doing in UK using Kempower technology. They have modular chargers with scalability and have a variable output depending upon the types of vehicle being charged. For example, if there is a 300 KW charger and two cars come, one of which can take 50 KW and other can take 250 KW. A fixed output charger will give the 2nd car only 150 KW (if evenly split) but a variable output charger can adjust the output from itself to allow increased output where required. Currently the scalability is up to 480 KW for their car chargers so it makes this a good option.
  3. Add new infrastructure but instead of removing old ones, convert them to high capacity ones using storage capacity system (E.ON + VW fast charger with storage capacity). This system has a storage battery and can convert existing 50 KW chargers to dual 150 KW chargers using a storage battery. The storage battery will charge using the 50 KW supply and when a car plugs in, it will be able to provide an actual fast charging experience for the cars that have the ability to use this. This does not require civil work and is a plug and play solution.
  4. For densely populated areas, chargers can be installed in lamp posts/street lights (London) or can go the battery swapping way as has been done by Neo.
I know EVs are all about charging at home/office/destination but until we have sufficient and reliable charging network, there will always be the issue of range anxiety and an excuse for the manufactures to not launch EVs making the demand artificially low.

Links
GAC Aion - https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/elect...ml#post5155005 (0-80% in 8 min - GAC Aion with 6c high rate fast charging)

Osprey - https://ospreycharging.co.uk

Kempower - https://kempower.com/charging-soluti...rging-station/

E.ON + VW - https://www.volkswagenag.com/en/news...e-battery.html
NG_EV is offline   (7) Thanks
Old 8th October 2021, 20:32   #2
BHPian
 
Shresth_EV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: Lucknow
Posts: 123
Thanked: 305 Times
Default Re: EV charging infrastructure - How should a developing country like India establish it?

Chargers on tune of >50kW are only required on highways.

Inside city, the focus should be on providing a ubiquitous experience :

1. Parking at a mall to shop at Big Bazaar? Charge.

2. Going to a vaccination centre? Charge.

3. Parking outside a relative’s house? Charge from lamppost.

In all these cases, even a meagre 3kW charger is enough because you’d shop for at least an hour or so, which is enough for getting 10% charge on Nexon EV for example.

The highway ones, though, need to be more future proof. Just because today’s EVs support 50kW, doesn’t mean that should be the upper limit. It won’t take even 5y to have 100kW charging support on EVs costing same as today’s ZS and Kona and 50kW for Nexon pricing.

The ubiquity is important because it makes the point of “faster chargers” moot. (Inside city) because where the person is parking for longer periods where a “top up” is alone enough.
Shresth_EV is offline   (3) Thanks
Old 8th October 2021, 20:44   #3
ike
BHPian
 
ike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Chennai/KL-08
Posts: 448
Thanked: 577 Times
Default Re: EV charging infrastructure - How should a developing country like India establish it?

Of course charging infrastructure needs to be setup but we also have to switch to cleaner sources of energy. Dependency on coal to generate electricity should be scaled down and move to Gas/LNG in the medium term and proper renewable energy for the long term. Burning coal for energy instead of gasoline needs to be addressed urgently for the energy transition to be successful.
ike is offline   (2) Thanks
Old 8th October 2021, 20:50   #4
Senior - BHPian
 
aargee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: KATSTN
Posts: 5,420
Thanked: 5,485 Times
Default Re: EV charging infrastructure - How should a developing country like India establish it?

Stopping the cars everywhere to recharge should be thing of past; road charging should be on the go!!
aargee is offline   (5) Thanks
Old 8th October 2021, 22:52   #5
BHPian
 
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Ghaziabad
Posts: 61
Thanked: 129 Times
Default Re: EV charging infrastructure - How should a developing country like India establish it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shresth_EV View Post
Chargers on tune of >50kW are only required on highways.

The ubiquity is important because it makes the point of “faster chargers” moot. (Inside city) because where the person is parking for longer periods where a “top up” is alone enough.
Completely agree with you on all the points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ike View Post
Of course charging infrastructure needs to be setup but we also have to switch to cleaner sources of energy.
This will need proper foresight. Many sources can be used e.g. solar power in design of buildings. The hospital where I work has a huge terrace but it has been used to set up solar water heater. Instead, it should have been used for solar power. There is enough space for almost 80 KW of solar power generation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aargee View Post
Stopping the cars everywhere to recharge should be thing of past; road charging should be on the go!!
https://www.Youtube.com/watch?v=oVEuOtRLNzc
Have heard about this but efficiency needs to be tested for such roads at highway speeds.
NG_EV is offline   (3) Thanks
Old 8th October 2021, 23:52   #6
Newbie
 
gvarma9989's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Sunnyvale
Posts: 10
Thanked: 22 Times
Default Re: EV charging infrastructure - How should a developing country like India establish it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shresth_EV View Post
Chargers on tune of >50kW are only required on highways.
Disagree.

We need 50KW+ inside city limits as well.
There should be a fallback mechanism in place.

I have a charger at home, Inside city limits I rarely use a Super Charger.

Unplanned drives? I had rely on a Super Charger, even inside city limits.

A quick 5 minutes Super Charging session to juice upto 75 Miles, gives me peace of mind.

One of the major selling point for a Tesla is Super Charging network.
I wouldn't touch another EV, unless they build a reliable charging network.

Future proof?
We need 350KW chargers both in city/highway limits.
gvarma9989 is online now   (2) Thanks
Old 12th October 2021, 20:41   #7
BHPian
 
Porcupine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Mumbai
Posts: 438
Thanked: 967 Times
Default Re: EV charging infrastructure - How should a developing country like India establish it?

On one side they want to create new infrastructure for EVs and charging points. On the other hand they've announced the possibility of load shedding in numerous states due to the coal shortage. Our infrastructure really isn't ready to support EVs anytime soon.
Porcupine is offline   (2) Thanks
Old 13th October 2021, 08:20   #8
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2021
Location: Jaipur
Posts: 4
Thanked: 3 Times
Default Re: EV charging infrastructure - How should a developing country like India establish it?

In the past 5 years or so, mobile charging has rapidly improved itself. With fast and super fast chargers (wireless also) available for almost all new android phone in the market, this similar technology will be available for EVs as well in the near future. I think the only concern is depletion of battery.
Government really doesn't need to do much for charging infrastructure other than simplifying approvals for related companies, the onus is on vendors to provide supporting infrastructure for their products.
Super/ Fast chargers should be the norm for any chargers other than the one's at home, it will definitely increase the confidence in EV vehicles.
Sudeep Lakhotia is offline  
Old 13th October 2021, 20:41   #9
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Hyderabad
Posts: 1
Thanked: 4 Times
Default Re: EV charging infrastructure - How should a developing country like India establish it?

There are quite a few challenges that requires innovative solutions. For example, on a highway, it takes about 3 to 5 minutes for the petrol station to fill the tank of an ICE vehicle and they get a revenue of almost Rs. 2k-3k. Compare that with an EV which would occupy the parking slot for 30 to 60 min and the corresponding revenue would be around Rs. 300 - Rs. 500. The balance is unevenly tilted in favour of ICE vehicles as far as revenue generation potential is concerned.

The next issue is the existing petrol stations on highways cannot install high powered chargers due to safety regulations. So, even though we have many petrol stations dotting the highways, they cannot easily install high power chargers.

The commercial viability of a standalone EV charging station on highways is questionable at this point in time for a for profit organisation, given the low numbers of EV and then there are issues like land price (along the highways it is always higher), need for installing HV substation, power backup capability in case of power failure etc.

Even if we combine a highway restaurant or an entertainment spot and mandate them to install EV charging infra, they would possibly give least importance to this activity - because of lower revenue/ROI potential.

My intention is not paint a gloomy scenario. I am an EV owner and I would love to see everything I said above is proven wrong soon enough

Cheers
Early_Adopter is offline   (4) Thanks
Old 14th October 2021, 12:16   #10
BHPian
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Pune
Posts: 92
Thanked: 717 Times
Default Re: EV charging infrastructure - How should a developing country like India establish it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Early_Adopter View Post
There are quite a few challenges that requires innovative solutions. For example, on a highway, it takes about 3 to 5 minutes for the petrol station to fill the tank of an ICE vehicle and they get a revenue of almost Rs. 2k-3k. Compare that with an EV which would occupy the parking slot for 30 to 60 min and the corresponding revenue would be around Rs. 300 - Rs. 500. The balance is unevenly tilted in favour of ICE vehicles as far as revenue generation potential is concerned.

My intention is not paint a gloomy scenario. I am an EV owner and I would love to see everything I said above is proven wrong soon enough

Cheers
Cheer up man, I have some counter arguments .

How much out of the 2k that the petrol pump dispenses does the petrol pump operator get? I think it is 1.2/litre of petrol and 1.8/litre of diesel, that means when you pump in 40 litre of petrol in 4 minutes, the pump gets Rs.45, so that comes to Rs 10/minute. Now let us take a case of 50kW charger dispensing at what Tata power is charging (18/kWh). I believe the DISCOM gives the electricity at 6-8/kWh, so the margin is about Rs.10/kWh.
So that 50kW charger will dispense 20kWh in 30 minutes, and the person gets Rs 200 in 30 minutes. So about Rs 6 / minute.

What I am getting at is that, for the operator the amount of money is not that much lesser, plus you get loiter time from the customer, and may be able to upsell other services(food, drinks and entertainment). The economics are not so horrible for the provider of this service.
mohanphadnis is offline   (5) Thanks
Old 14th October 2021, 16:23   #11
BHPian
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chennai
Posts: 308
Thanked: 421 Times
Default Re: EV charging infrastructure - How should a developing country like India establish it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Early_Adopter View Post
There are quite a few challenges that requires innovative solutions. For example, on a highway, it takes about 3 to 5 minutes for the petrol station to fill the tank of an ICE vehicle and they get a revenue of almost Rs. 2k-3k. Compare that with an EV which would occupy the parking slot for 30 to 60 min and the corresponding revenue would be around Rs. 300 - Rs. 500. The balance is unevenly tilted in favour of ICE vehicles as far as revenue generation potential is concerned.

The next issue is the existing petrol stations on highways cannot install high powered chargers due to safety regulations. So, even though we have many petrol stations dotting the highways, they cannot easily install high power chargers.

The commercial viability of a standalone EV charging station on highways is questionable at this point in time for a for profit organisation, given the low numbers of EV and then there are issues like land price (along the highways it is always higher), need for installing HV substation, power backup capability in case of power failure etc.
Excellent points! The only thing that will happen is as the EV adoption increases, the EV charging infrastructure will lag. This in turn will make charging outside one's home to be a costly affair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mohanphadnis View Post
Cheer up man, I have some counter arguments .

How much out of the 2k that the petrol pump dispenses does the petrol pump operator get? I think it is 1.2/litre of petrol and 1.8/litre of diesel, that means when you pump in 40 litre of petrol in 4 minutes, the pump gets Rs.45, so that comes to Rs 10/minute. Now let us take a case of 50kW charger dispensing at what Tata power is charging (18/kWh). I believe the DISCOM gives the electricity at 6-8/kWh, so the margin is about Rs.10/kWh.
So that 50kW charger will dispense 20kWh in 30 minutes, and the person gets Rs 200 in 30 minutes. So about Rs 6 / minute.
Excellent points again. Thanks for sharing. However, I think the costs you've projected does not include the following:

1. There is GST to be paid to the government, AFAIK (5% I think)
2. The DISCOM rate on domestic/residential tariff may be 6-8 rupees per KWh, but commercial rates are 10+ rupees per KWh. While some states give discounts, many don't.
3. The mobile apps required for charging and payment also take a cut. This is above the payment processing cut.

And more importantly, until these EV chargers being setup attain about 70-80% utilization, the operators may not be able to get profits after covering for all the initial costs of setup, rentals, maintenance and staff salaries.

Regards,
lsjey
lsjey is online now   (3) Thanks
Old 22nd October 2021, 18:19   #12
BHPian
 
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Hyderbad
Posts: 419
Thanked: 1,244 Times
Default Re: EV charging infrastructure - How should a developing country like India establish it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Early_Adopter View Post
There are quite a few challenges that requires innovative solutions. For example, on a highway, it takes about 3 to 5 minutes for the petrol station to fill the tank of an ICE vehicle and they get a revenue of almost Rs. 2k-3k. Compare that with an EV which would occupy the parking slot for 30 to 60 min and the corresponding revenue would be around Rs. 300 - Rs. 500. The balance is unevenly tilted in favour of ICE vehicles as far as revenue generation potential is concerned.

The next issue is the existing petrol stations on highways cannot install high powered chargers due to safety regulations. So, even though we have many petrol stations dotting the highways, they cannot easily install high power chargers.

The commercial viability of a standalone EV charging station on highways is questionable at this point in time for a for profit organisation, given the low numbers of EV and then there are issues like land price (along the highways it is always higher), need for installing HV substation, power backup capability in case of power failure etc.

Even if we combine a highway restaurant or an entertainment spot and mandate them to install EV charging infra, they would possibly give least importance to this activity - because of lower revenue/ROI potential.

My intention is not paint a gloomy scenario. I am an EV owner and I would love to see everything I said above is proven wrong soon enough

Cheers
Wow, awesome points. Can't agree more. I have not been a great fan of EVs. The range and charging time are huge deterrents for me to buy an EV maybe even after a decade.
Raghu M is offline  
Reply

Most Viewed
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Team-BHP.com
Proudly powered by E2E Networks