[Electromotive]

Originally Posted by Shresth_EV

Just because new players with fat pockets are doing it, it doesn’t mean everyone or anyone is going to succeed.

No offense, but you seem to have misconstrued my entire post.

I didn't say anything about financial success. EVs are a new frontier and there are going to be many players. The same thing happened with smartphones. When the smartphone revolution started there were a lot of companies making smartphones but as time went on the technology matured and the market consolidated, since not every one could be profitable. Same will happen with EVs. This doesn't nullify the argument that EV tech is simpler and entry barriers are much lower. It is a lot simpler to design and manufacture a BMS and motor than it is to make an ICE with hundreds of moving parts. Also, Sony's car was a technology demonstrator for their EV and PS tech, they are not going to build cars.

Originally Posted by Shresth_EV

Buying off shelf for conversions is, for all intents and purposes, hobby work, not something you’d sell on the market.

How is it any different than what traditional auto makers are already doing? Bosch supplies the ECU, some other company supplies the infotainment system, brembo supplies the brakes etc. Auto makers are system integrators who source parts from specialized firms. Why should sourcing the BMS and motor be any different? Yes, having in-house expertise helps refine the product and carve out a niche but MSIL doesn't have to be as good as Tesla to sell EVs in India; being good enough will do since Maruti already has the brand equity and market reach. Just like MSIL doesn't need to have a semi-fab or designers to build the ECU for their cars, they don't necessarily need to have a team to design a BMS or a motor but it will be a good idea if they did.

I only mentioned the EV diyers to illustrate the simplicity of transitioning to electric.

Originally Posted by starke

It is true that it is much simpler than ICE, but it's not as easy as it seems. And of course, a prototype can be made within a month, but making a mass-produced EV without niggles takes lots of experience.

But developing the technology from the lab to industrial mass production takes lots of skills and experience which neither Maruti nor their technology advisor Toyota doesn't have on EV.

Ford, Porsche, BMW, VAG all now have somewhat competitive offerings in the EV category. In less than 5 years they developed the capability and expertise necessary to produce EVs. Why do you think the engineers at Toyota and Suzuki won't be able to do the same? They already have experience building hybrid vehicles (which have the BEV components).

Originally Posted by shortbread

For us couch warriors it might seem so but any kind of business that involves mass manufacturing has it's own complications, let alone EVs. Mobile phone companies specialise in manufacturing hi tech goods in scale. So when you say 'even' mobile phone companies, it seems like you think they run a very rudimentary business. That is not correct.

Yes, mass producing at scale is a complicated business but I singled out phone manufacturers because they are entering a completely new-to-them industry. The fact that they are attempting to enter the auto industry is proof that they have found enough synergies (battery, chips and electricals) to proceed with their venture. Which supports my previous argument that EV tech is a lot more simpler and accessible.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by Electromotive

No offense, but you seem to have misconstrued my entire post.


Yes, mass producing at scale is a complicated business but I singled out phone manufacturers because they are entering a completely new-to-them industry. The fact that they are attempting to enter the auto industry is proof that they have found enough synergies (battery, chips and electricals) to proceed with their venture. Which supports my previous argument that EV tech is a lot more simpler and accessible.

There is a lot of investments and new businesses looking into EVs right now, that you are right Electromotive. But it is not simply because EVs are easy to make, that is wrong.

There is a lot of focus and understanding regarding the potential of EVs, it is massive. There is a lot of capital in the world right now, governments all over have been printing money. So big potential + surplus capital = new investment opportunities.

Remember with EV's the manufacturers are only replacing IC powertrains with electric ones.

They still need to engineer and create chassis, suspension, pass crash tests, aerodynamics, interiors, in car tech......on top of getting to grips with novel EV powertrains. Then all this learnings need to be adapted in order to make thousands of these cars regularly ie. mass manufacture them.

It can be done and there is a lot of incentive in doing it, but it definitely is not easy.

[Electromotive]

Originally Posted by shortbread

But it is not simply because EVs are easy to make, that is wrong.

Remember with EV's the manufacturers are only replacing IC powertrains with electric ones.

They still need to engineer and create chassis, suspension, pass crash tests, aerodynamics, interiors, in car tech......on top of getting to grips with novel EV powertrains.

Totally agree with you. The power-train is possibly one of the easier components of an electric vehicle. Building the coach and other common (with ICE) components is still more challenging, which is why I am somewhat surprised that even Xiaomi thinks they can get into EVs.

Ultimately I think these phone companies will limit themselves to just the electronics, display, cameras and possibly software. Things they already know how to build. Funny thing is EVs strengthen the dominance of the Chinese in car technology even further. Soon they will be the ones dictating the direction of the automotive industry.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by Electromotive

Funny thing is EVs strengthen the dominance of the Chinese in car technology even further. Soon they will be the ones dictating the direction of the automotive industry.

I agree and have a funny feeling this is likely to happen in India as well.

[fast_n_curious]

IMHO, Maruti management should take notice and learn from Tesla.
Every big car company in US and Europe are getting into EV big time. If Maruti falters now there demise will happen sooner than later.
Maruti should make an EV even if its expensive and the learning from it will help in long run.
If ford is doing to Mustang Mach E why can’t Maruti do a Swift E.
And it is high time for companies to celebrate and learn from failures

[Durango Dude]

Not only Maruti even Toyota is so 'averse' to EV's. EV's especially in cold climates don't hold charge well. Norway, I believe will sell it's last gasoline powered car as early as 2022 April: news. Many Norwegians are against it, 'cause in winter the priority is heating and with EV's sucking up a lot of power they are seeing a surge in electricity bills and also short supply of power when they need it most: winter for heating coupled with it the batteries don't hold charge efficiently in winter. Plus I'm not the one ready to wait for an hour or two just to recharge car batteries when on a trip, just imagine how this skews trip times. EV's have a lot of shortcomings that have been conveniently overlooked and are being pushed as the next big thing when the world and battery tech is least prepared for it.

[Durango Dude]

Originally Posted by shortbread

I agree and have a funny feeling this is likely to happen in India as well.

Don't worry we will running on 'ghobar gas' meaning 'bullock cart' desi Fred Flintsone's feel to the whole thing...

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

Not only Maruti even Toyota is so 'averse' to EV's.

Toyota WAS averse to EVs, now they are heavily investing in electric and have model line-up and production plans for an EV onslaught. They have lined up more than $13 billion to invest in electric over the next decade.

[starke]

Originally Posted by Electromotive

Ford, Porsche, BMW, VAG all now have somewhat competitive offerings in the EV category. In less than 5 years they developed the capability and expertise necessary to produce EVs. Why do you think the engineers at Toyota and Suzuki won't be able to do the same? They already have experience building hybrid vehicles (which have the BEV components).

You are misinformed on the timelines from the internet. Porsche started their electrification development team around 2013 and even took lots of suppliers who were already researching on the same since long back. That goes the same with VAG and BMW and the dedicated platform for EV is a crucial checkpoint. But comparing VAG/BMW/Porsche with MSIL is a joke, no offense but you can talk to any RnD people who left the company to know MSIL top management prioritize research and development.

Look at what Toyota said and blabbered all these years about their Anti-EV policy and now stepping out of the shame with new intention to invest in BEV. Ofcourse they have PHEV, but that does'nt means that they can excel in BEV due to complete architectural differences.

Like I said before, electrified powertrains are easy, but its not as easy to buy BMS from one supplier. battery from another, motor from another etc.. The integration, the endurance and safety of the traction bat pack, ride ability on existing or development of an all new platform, most importantly supplier development is so crucial that we can not switch different supplier intemitently due to vendor tooling expenses which again we will know once the respective product offering passes OEMs vehicle platform.

EV is easy, but not easy for MSIL due to their weak engineering team

[mayd85]

Originally Posted by Electromotive

EV tech is so simple that anybody with the necessary capital can jump into the game. How else do you explain so many new players entering into EV production? Even mobile phone companies are getting into EV.

You don't even have to have the expertise in-house, you can buy all the necessary components and expertise from specialized suppliers. There are engineering firms who will design the BMS and charging system for you, companies who will sell you the motor etc. Even on this forum we have members building electric cars (Swift Dzire EV - Systematic conversion to an electric car!) and bikes (My Electric Discover | I converted my Bajaj Discover 125 to electric with a lithium-ion battery) from imported Chinese parts. EV tech is that simple.

Then big companies like VW, Audi, BMW are big idiots that they are designing entirely new vehicle platforms to accommodate the EV technology and components. There is something called as Vehicle Integration which is a big domain within automobile engineering itself.

Making an EV, particularly 4 wheeler, is not as easy as making a 2 wheeler EV. There are n number of things like safety, crash worthiness (the less said about Maruti in this area, the better), vehicle level integration and validation of all the electronic parts (the software in it, especially) etc. Unless we know for sure that Maruti has started working on a new vehicle platform, or is modifying existing vehicle platform, to suit EV requirements and working on the aforementioned things, yes, we can say they are lagging. This is not called a strategic approach. Anybody who thinks Maruti has been hiding Wagon R EV as a surprise and can launch it any time as a surprise, is grossly mistaken.

Moreover, Tatas and Mahindras have approached this whole EV deal with an ecosystem based mindset which includes charging infra, fleet services and all. This means they are in it for the long haul. What steps has Maruti taken in this direction? First mover always gets the advantage of setting the tone of the market and maybe even influencing government policies. Even if we accept that Suzuki has big clout in all the governments so far, that's not a guarantee that all the policies and regulations will be decided in their favour, because by then other OEMs can show that we have numbers (of customers and market share) behind them, which the policy makers cannot completely ignore.

[Rocketscience]

Originally Posted by GTO

Maruti doesn't know how to make a proper AT gearbox, so designing an EV is a long shot - here is my related thread (Maruti sleeping at the wheel | Where are the new car launches? | Why is Maruti missing new trends?) on how the company is slacking. Maruti simply doesn't have the R&D capability to build an EV.

Toyota will bail them out though. The "Big T" is now putting big money on EVs (after a failed bet on hydrogen) and will supply that tech to Maruti.

Agreed and i wonder how they managed to produce gems such as the K series and so many other engines in the past (not being sarcastic).

They might have been inspired/copied from other engines or would have been an effort of extra long time of trial and error maybe.

[GeeTee TSI]

It could be that Maruti is spending a considerable time (and budget) on lobbying the government on regulations around fossil fuel powered vehicles as well as incentives to electric vehicles; than on product development. While showcasing technology is not a source of pride for Maruti, ensuring that the current fleet bring churned out stay relevant as long as possible could be their priority

[AZT]

Maruti has no incentive now. They are running at full capacity and with the semi conductor backlog it will be a year before they can fulfill all orders. I'm sure they have something in the back pocket and will wait for battery tech to get cheaper before getting in.

[ASP_73]

What must be the purpose of big investment by Suzuki in the Lithium-Ion battery manufacturing plant located in the Suzuki supplier's park in Gujarat ?

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by ASP_73

What must be the purpose of big investment by Suzuki in the Lithium-Ion battery manufacturing plant located in the Suzuki supplier's park in Gujarat ?

All they invested in was a press release.