[shortbread]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

And how much is the revenue earned from it?

The issue is an imported item takes revenue that should be circulating within the economy, outside the borders.

Eg. If the country had energy independence, say like the US, every barrel of fuel purchased goes back to the local driller/fracking operations, their employees, local investors/lenders, the organisation and people then pay taxes, buy homes and daily necessities etc.etc. The money continues to circulate and grow within the US economy.

Such a product doesn't need to be taxed heavily as the benefits far outweigh tax revenue.

[Shresth_EV]

Originally Posted by DicKy

This is how.

https://www.team-bhp.com/news/gps-ba...oll-booths?amp

Starts with highway tolling based on GPS whatever, and it will end in a situation where the meter starts running the moment you take your car out on public roads.

Not to say the taxes will go back to old levels when most cars become EVs. They will find the engine cc equivalent or something to base taxes/excise on.

Don't fret. The government may have already thought it through and are having the last hurrah with 50%+ tax on fuel.

The best is probably the kerb weight (since I’ve heard the notion that heavier vehicles are more detrimental to roads) as in USA.

Battery mass would be a good measure as taking whole kerb weight can lead to unsafe build quality (already seen on MS) where weight reduction is done.

Battery weight also indirectly, and automatically, accounts for the kWh capacity and also, the amount of electricity used (obvious that a 30kWh Nexon EV battery uses less electricity than 100kWh Tesla battery)

Marking range of the vehicle is not efficient nor is odo based taxation, since that can be fiddled with (educate me if wrong) and only few will be caught for odo fiddling. Maximum are likely to get away with it.

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by pedrolourenco

The only way to ensure you can run your EV cost effectively is to install solar panels at your work place to charge your EV. That's assuming you work during the day (like most people) and park the vehicle at home during the night.
This works well for those who are self employed as you would be owning your work place.

Even if you install Solar panels at home, you would sell it back to the grid and even out your electricity bills.

[Apex1815]

EV may be cheaper to run as on today but Once EVs become mainstream, the government will possibly find the smart ways to balance their revenues and the EVs may no longer be cheaper to run.
There are high chances in future that overall life cycle cost of owning an EV may turn out to be same as that of an Internal Combustion Engine vehicle as the Govt. will try every possible way to balance its Tax revenues in Electric Vehicle Era :

1) Increase in Import Duty on Raw material used in the EV Battery.

2) Increase in the GST on EVs.

2) Increase in Road Tax.

3) Increase in Electricity Tariff

4) High Charging Prices at the Charging station

5) Other Innovative ideas Govt. might have started working upon to balance their revenues in EV Era.

[Stribog]

Originally Posted by RR96

The development in EVs are rapid and EVs would soon lead ICs to extinction. While its a good thing for us customers as it would lead to cheaper, cleaner fuel but I don't know how in future the government would deal with it. Fuel taxes contribute to around 20% of the gross revenue of the country from taxes (Rs.4 lakh Crore from tax on fuel) and around 2% of the GDP. When the future shifts to EV, government would lose its goose which lays the golden egg, government charges around Rs.50 as taxes per litre of fuel.

P.S. Didn't find a similar topic hence started a thread. Mods please merge to similar topic.

Imagine you had a credit card on which you spend Rs 100 and gain Rs 10 in reward points. Your monthly spend is Rs 10000 which means a revenue of Rs 1000.

Now your argument is, the Rs 1000 will stop, but the fact is your spend of Rs 10000 ALSO will stop in this case. Which basically means your net income actually went up by Rs 9,000.

India has a very low PV density of 22 cars / 1000. Even at the growth rate from 2000 on which is 9% CAGR, by 2050 we are looking at quadrupling our cars on the road. Without EV's this will put a huge stress via our oil import bill.

Our oil import bill is approx Rs 7.5L crore ($ 100 bn) and is the single largest contributor to forex outflow. To put things into perspective

1 - Our defense budget is $ 65 Bn
2 - Our MNREGA budget is $ 10 Bn
3 - Our entire capex budget is $ 90 Bn

In sum, we can pay off our capex budget + Mnrega and have a little to spare (forex savings) just on the back of our import bill.

Plus our dependencies on external suppliers goes down.

It eases infrastructural logjams in shipping these to the last mile pumps (though this is a fraction of the costs involved)

Let me put it this way, if you had a chance to earn Rs 100 and earn rebate of Rs 50 for a net earning of Rs 50 or simply earn Rs 100 and not get a rebate, which would you choose?

This is the exact reason why the GoI is pushing slowly right now but aggressively over the coming decade to do a full scale EV transformation.

[Stribog]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

This argument is irrelevant and obsolete. It was valid many many years back when prices at pump were artificially kept low, and government had to compensate OMCs for that. Fuel was subsidised, and any reduction in usage meant lesser loss to be reimbursed.

Nowadays, the government mints money on every liter sold. And it is a pilferage free source of revenue. No leakage, no delay, no added costs. Their revenue from sale of fuel is much much more than whatever forex is used to buy/import it.

Rest assured, if and when we reach a point where EVs start threatening revenues from petrol and diesel, the mandarins will come up with all kinds of innovative ways to tax EVs and their usage. Net net, the babus never loose. And the people are always screwed.

Note to mods -

Apologies on the back to back posts, requesting you to merge my earlier one with this. Thanks.

This is a very relevant argument even to this day.

Our oil import bill hit a peak of $ 115 Bn iirc in 2018 and is around the $ 100 Bn mark right now.

That is around Rs 7.4l crores of valuable forex lost.

We gain about Rs 4l crores in various taxes (central and state), but this is paid for in local INR and gained in INR.

This is the exact mechanism the British Raj used (one of the) to exploit us.

Our imports were in cold Sterlings but our exports and local purchases were in the weaker Rupee.

We forgeo Rs 4l crores of revenue, but the Govt then has $ 7l Crore available which it did not previously (Our Capex budget of $ 90 Bn + Mnrega budget of $ 10 Bn can be met from this).

The argument that our refineries export processed fuel and thus it is also an export commodity doesnt hold weight.

https://www.rbi.org.in/Scripts/BS_Pr...spx?prid=51820

In our BoP chart, our net deficit from import of POL (after accounting for export of processed fuel) is $ 89.3 Bn!

In our import / export chart, India imports $ 477 Bn worth goods (2019-20 data), exports $ 320 Bn.

A net deficit of around $ 150 Bn which fuels our overall CAD.

Now knockoff fuel and the picture changes drastically.

Imports - $ 347 Bn, exports $ 280 Bn for a net deficit of only $ 67 Bn.

Given that we have an overall $ 100 Bn surplus in services exports over imports, we will have a whopping $ 35 Bn approx in surplus.

IN reality we hit a surplus of 800 Mn last year and that is our highest ever.

This in turn will have a cascading effect on the INR value, which in turn affects our ability to export / import competitively.

It is an ABSOLUTE no brainer that reducing oil imports impacts our economy drastically and in a positive way.

Any argument that "le govt loses taxes it is evill lol lol"(not your argument, but the general counter argument which am putting forth in a sarcastic way, but definitely not directed at you personally) is just devoid of substance.

Will govts eventually tax EV? 100% yes, maybe even bring in a full fledged car road tax like they do for IC vehicles once the numbers hit critical mass, maybe even tax electricity at higher rates etc etc whatever the market will bear but will every govt worth its salt including oil producing ones like the KSA plan for and want a transition to EV's? Also yes. Look up the massive policy shift in the KSA on renewable energy and that is a country entirely dependent on oil for its basic survival and even it is pivoting towards green energy

[PearlJam]

Be assured that the government is an expert when it comes to taxing. There will never be a revenue loss (if at all, they usually get into trouble because of over-spending), because they always recognize areas that are under-taxed, and start taxing things that start to get popular. When some things become less popular, then as is the norm, something else becomes more popular - and that will be taxed. A few examples:

1. Service tax was introduced at 5% for just a few services. Now, it is 15% and covers a lot of services. They recognized that services was an untapped gold mine.

2. Minimum Alternate Tax was reintroduced in 1997. Tax on Debt funds above 1 year, was introduced in 2015. These were loophopes that were exploited earlier.

3. Securities Transaction Tax and Turnover Tax was introduced in the early 2000 for stock market trades. They recognized that huge turnovers in the electronic stock exchanges was something to be milked

These are just a few examples. Coming specifically to Electric Vehicles, as GTO mentioned, the government will tax public charging facilities. If that is not getting them enough revenue, they can always mandate a higher tax on electricity for charging your vehicle at home (on either a percentage of your total electricity bill, or mandate a separate electricity meter).

Never underestimate the government and it's out-of-the-box thinking when it's pushed to the wall!

[SKC-auto]

Nexon EV costs 15lacs, if batteries are 90% of vehicle cost, means the Nexon without EV drive train costs just 1.5lacs.

Nexon ICE sells at ~12lacs, does it mean ICE components are 87.5% of the vehicle cost or Tata is making a nice profit of 6-7lacs for each Nexon ICE vehicle sold?

[GeeTee TSI]

That EVs would be (more) economical is an illusion, maybe it would be to begin with. The reason for the transition has more to do with climate than to help owners' wallets

[Electromotive]

If and when revenue shortfall due to EVs ever becomes a thing, the govt. should start by trimming its ranks to compensate. There are too many govt. and PSU employees sucking up tax payer money and profits respectively.

Surely, a govt. that has the "nation's best interest at heart" would try to plug tax leakage and tax payer money wasted on supporting overstaffed govt. offices. I might be delusional, but didn't better minds point out something about good governments governing the least?

Hah! Who are we kidding. The sarkari babus and MPs will award themselves fatter paychecks every year while the contractors and laborers get penny pinched.

[raghukodali]

I don't think the EV push has anything to do with government revenues or pollution (may be to some extent). I think it has more to do with energy independence for the country than anything else.

As a country we need to get to a point where we are completely independent of other countries for our ever increasing energy requirements.

Once that independence is achieved, it is still a secondary and internal problem of who makes money out of whom. Without that energy independence, some other country will be able to hold us hostage.

[metalheadnomad]

Originally Posted by RR96

How would government respond to this in future, would they be overcharging the customers for electricity. Would like to hear other BHPians' opinion.

The government could get inspired by their counterparts Down Under and impose a mileage based taxation! I sincerely hope they don't.

https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/elect...australia.html (EV owners told to send in their car's odometer reading for road tax in Australia)

[BennyA23]

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

Net net, the babus never loose. And the people are always screwed.

Amen.

Could well be the next TeamBHP t-shirt

[msa.30789]

On one end, the govt would save precious foreign exchange by reduced imports of Crude, if EVs start dominating the road. So, if the revenue for the govt falls down, its expenses also comes down to the same extent.

And one more doubt guys, I have always been thinking about it. Couldn't ask for a better place to clarify my doubt. Why not fit EVs with roof top solar panels, in addition to EV charging ports? This would make the running cost of the EVs almost zero during summer. Please clarify my doubt.

[Shresth_EV]

Originally Posted by msa.30789

And one more doubt guys, I have always been thinking about it. Couldn't ask for a better place to clarify my doubt. Why not fit EVs with roof top solar panels, in addition to EV charging ports? This would make the running cost of the EVs almost zero during summer. Please clarify my doubt.

Few cars have adopted this concept, but in general, The efficiency just isn’t there.


This car, Sono Sion, has 7.5sq.m. of solar panel coverage for about 1200W of peak generation. For this, they put solar panels on all body panels, like door, roof, hood, and trunk.



There are many issues at hand :

1. A rule of thumb in solar industry is 10 sq.m. for 1kW solar panel. Bolting on general purpose panels (flat ones) will interfere aerodynamics and increase load.

2. Flexible solar panels, which take shape of roof, exist, but those have worse efficiency than flat ones. So you’d need even larger area of flexible solar panels to get same generation.

3. Not only do panels add aero drag, but also residual weight and raise cost of vehicle. Imagine getting dent on door — there goes your 200W of generation.

And anyway, the size of roof is far from 10 sq.m. — your best bet is 500-750W (which will not give you a lot of energy — 8h of direct sun will give you 4kWh.

This car claims 1200W (all body panels with solar cells) and has a 54kWh battery for 305km of range. Charging at 1000W via solar (non ideal day) would take 54h for full charge, or give you 8kWh per day (if 8h of sunlight is there), essentially equalling to about 45km of solar range per day.

Impressive for free range until you consider the fact that the model 3 gets 420km WLTP range on 55kWh. And this car costs $34,000.