[Shresth_EV]

Interesting dive into Wireless Charging vs Swapping Battery

https://youtu.be/ezBpIVYLYNs

Mods please move to relevant thread if needed, much thanks!

[umohan98]

I had a small question for the forum.
While we are all in for Battery EVs and Strong Hybrids, what happens to the battery in 8 to 10 years down the line? Will it not cost the entire worth of the car to replace it then?
Do EVs have a shorter lifespan compared to ICE vehicles, which run fine atleast for 15 years?

[shortbread]

Originally Posted by umohan98

I had a small question for the forum.
While we are all in for Battery EVs and Strong Hybrids, what happens to the battery in 8 to 10 years down the line? Will it not cost the entire worth of the car to replace it then?
Do EVs have a shorter lifespan compared to ICE vehicles, which run fine atleast for 15 years?

In terms of powertrain an electric motor will outlast an ICE engine. Plus you will save on servicing costs as the former would not need a timing belt/chain replacements, no filters, zero oil changes etc. Rest of the paraphernalia ie. interiors, suspension, body etc would see similar deterioration albeit EVs are more refined and have less NVH. So over time should age better and rattle less that ICE cars.

Again it also depends on who's making the said car, I suspect a Merc EV is better built than an electric Tesla.

Coming to the batteries, they keep getting cheaper every year. So it's a mistake considering this as a constant. Albeit supply chain issues have seen all material costs rise in the last two years, overall battery prices have fallen by approximately 85% over the last decade. Also battery technology constantly evolves, gets denser, lighter, new cheaper material replacements are found etc.... Plus with domestic manufacture picking up EV batteries will become more cost effective.




In a decades time a new battery would be a very viable proposition especially when pollution norms only grow stricter each passing year. What would be the legislation of 15 year old ICE cars in 2030 or 7-8 years from now?

[WRXXX]

Originally Posted by umohan98

I had a small question for the forum.
While we are all in for Battery EVs and Strong Hybrids, what happens to the battery in 8 to 10 years down the line? Will it not cost the entire worth of the car to replace it then?
Do EVs have a shorter lifespan compared to ICE vehicles, which run fine atleast for 15 years?

It depends on the usage, there are batteries still running with minimal degradation post 600-700K miles. Lets say even then a battery only lasts say 10 years, unless it is a battery defect, the Li-ion battery is not completely dead it usually has a fixed charging cycles that is later usable for a second life use cases of Power backup applications (like the Tesla Wall).

But coming to the point, In Indian condition it is too early to say how long these batteries really last and whether the replacement battery cost later offsets the savings. I think like @shortbread explained in the previous post, the battery prices have been dropping and newer batteries with different characteristics and range appear in the market by then. If the same vehicle is refitted with a newer battery 10 years down the line cost will be much lower and car almost got a new life. Also for a heavy user I am sure the cost is recovered in terms of maintenance and running cost savings. If the battery should die before 8 years then the warranty covers but post 8 years, it depends on the kms/miles done.

Suppose the user runs 20000kms per annum then savings are nearing 1.5L in a EV vs ICE. And this over 8 years earns itself into the cost of replacement battery, my guess is in ICE vehicle one looses more than this in terms of depreciation of the vehicle and not to mention the running cost and maintenance already spent, where as with a new battery an EV can command higher resale as well if a person really wants to sell it. The EV owner mentality is typically keep the vehicle as long as possible unless a suitable and worthy replacement arrives, I think people who change cars every 5 years should stay away from EVs in its current phase unless they are mile munchers.

With many new batteries like solid state and liquid metal Al-air and Log9 Graphene claiming 20 years warranty battery, there is a huge scope for change, despite of all the negatives we hear today on EVs, it is still worth the change and it is a change in the right direction IMHO. If not for Tesla we would have been under the control of fossil fuels moguls forever, and how many would have thought they could fuel their cars from the rooftop energy source. BYD is already offering 5L kms warranty on the battery, down the line once these guys have real world data I am sure they will offer even more competitive warranties and pricing. What is interesting is for a tech that is as nascent as 20 years it is already going head on with an 100 year old transportation tech.
Today you see people change to EV not because they care about air or efficiency but on the running cost, this is where we have to change, not everything can be measured that way. Especially we don't ask any questions when hospital charges lakhs of rupees for Oxygen or water that was free and we just screwed environment and our health and paid up. It's the choices we make today that define us in the longer run.

Ideally I vote for trains(electric of course) and small electric City/Urban commute cars, this driving everywhere fever is an American thing and now heavily globalised.

[WRXXX]

@umohan98 forgot to totally mention the fact that industry itself is targeting under 100 USD per kWh by 2024. If that happens an Average Nexon battery input cost should be around 3.5L(30x100x80x1.5 duty/inflation/USD fluctuation etc if not manufactured here approx) and consumer cost at around 4.0L? which is included in the savings achieved by running the car for 8 years and replacement when done outside warranty.

[sumeethaldankar]

Scotty's take on EV's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-q4nGBHWTI

[Durango Dude]

I think we will pollute more by using EV's in India as 75% of the electricity production in India is Thermal or Coal Based go figure how polluting that can be!! In Germany you need to use a clean source of electricity supplier like solar or hyrdolectric to charge your car or the subsidy given is taken back with a penalty...


https://coal.nic.in/en/major-statist...ty%20Authority.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

I think we will pollute more by using EV's in India

This is nonsense, no need to explain in every EV thread.

In Germany you need to use a clean source of electricity supplier like solar or hyrdolectric to charge your car or the subsidy given is taken back with a penalty...

Please share sources or it never happened.

[Jattitude]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

This is nonsense, no need to explain in every EV thread.
Attachment 2310630

Hi! Could you share the source for the graphic above. I had a debate yesterday on this very topic of life cycle and would like to present more data in favour of EVs. Thank you!

[Jattitude]

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

I think we will pollute more by using EV's in India as 75% of the electricity production in India is Thermal or Coal Based go figure how polluting that can be!!

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleaseIfram...x?PRID=1785808

Not sure from Coal India is quoting its figures. PIB, GoI’s figures clearly state that 40% contribution is by solar itself. I have quoted the extract from the link above for your ready reference.
“At COP 21, as part of its Nationally Determined Contributions (NDCs), India had committed to achieving 40% of its installed electricity capacity from non-fossil energy sources by 2030. The country has achieved this target in November 2021 itself.”

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by Jattitude

Hi! Could you share the source for the graphic above. I had a debate yesterday on this very topic of life cycle and would like to present more data in favour of EVs. Thank you!

This is from the ICCT report, what I observed is ICCT reports are highly regarded in the scientific community.

[ATTACH=Global-LCA-passenger-cars-jul2021-0.pdf]2310712[/ATTACH]

[Quoter]

Originally Posted by Jattitude

[url]

“At COP 21, as part of its Nationally Determined Contributions (NDCs), India had committed to achieving 40% of its installed electricity capacity from non-fossil energy sources by 2030. The country has achieved this target in November 2021 itself.”

Installed capacity is very different from actual generation. We are still at ~70% coal in terms of actual electricity generation. Installed capacity is an ideal scenario with year round sunshine, no clouds or rain, no pollution, ready off-take of whatever solar energy is produced etc.
Having said that, for heavy vehicles users, EV's will turn out to be less polluting than ICE vehicles especially as the mix shifts more and more away from coal. For light users, petrol vehicles might still have lower environmental damage. Yet to find a neutral study which does a good job of figuring out the level of usage at which this switch happens.

[Durango Dude]

Originally Posted by Jattitude

I own a 75k kms run Tata Harrier and a 8k kms run Tigor EV. I can totally relate to your feeling. When we first got the Tigor EV home, I drove it continuously for 3 weeks without stepping foot inside the Harrier. 3 weeks later driving the diesel SUV, felt akin to driving a truck.

That said you're right Harrier is a "truck" and Tigor EV is a car . It boils down to the heavy hydraulic power steering in the Harrier that makes it use two hands to "steer" instead of a few fingers to "twirl"...

[Jattitude]

Originally Posted by Quoter

Installed capacity is very different from actual generation.

Thanks for the clarification. Your point does make sense. But, I feel that high installed capacity in a country like ours will eventually result in high efficiency output for most of the year.

I am not suggesting that Solar or other green power sources will completely replace thermal power. But, the overall mix of power generation sources will become healthier with time.

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

That said you're right Harrier is a "truck" and Tigor EV is a car . It boils down to the heavy hydraulic power steering in the Harrier that makes it use two hands to "steer" instead of a few fingers to "twirl"...

The Tigor EV replaced a petrol Vento. So I had been driving a “car” prior to the Tigor. Moving from Vento to the Harrier never felt like much of a difference. It’s the drive quality of an EV vis-à-vis an ICE car.

[Durango Dude]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

This is nonsense, no need to explain in every EV thread.
Attachment 2310630

Fossil fuel used in India for power generation is to the tune of 59.1% and rest is Non Fossil Fuel sources of power generation 40.9%.

https://powermin.gov.in/en/content/p...ance-all-india

Please share sources or it never happened.

I was chatting with an acquaintance in Hamburg, Germany who had recently bought a Smart for 2 EV. Total cost was E 27000, Govt and car company give a rebate of E 6000 (Govt) and E 3000 (car company) He got E 5000 for selling his old car and had to pay E 13000 for the Smart for 2 EV. He needs to show the supplier has a clean energy source = Non Fossil source of electric generation to charge the car, if not the E 9000 rebate given by Govt and Car company will be taken back with a penalty added, he said. May be you check on the net the veracity of what he has said, I didn't have any doubts taking him on his word..