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12th April 2022, 19:48 | #1 |
BHPian | Things to consider when buying an Electric Car I have been doing reading/experimenting/thinking and living EVs for sometime now and I thought I will pen down my understanding that could help others if they are in the market or deciding where to start if in confusion about EVs. Below are my notes, please point out if something is a miss or totally out of place and I will try and correct it. Here we go. EV purchase and test drive considerations (Evolving content). Apart from the usual car test drives one does, EVs would need special attention since there is a whole lot of things that are taken for granted in the Internal Combustion Engine(ICE) vehicles . Whether EV works for you if you choose today?
I think if all the above points are applicable and works then mostly 99% you are an EV ready candidate. However, don’t buy a high range EV with extra high battery capacity, especially if you are a personal user unless you really intend to use it. 99% of the cases do not utilize the extra range and capacity of long range EVs. Real world 200-350km ranged EV is usable even today by using the ever expanding fast charging network. Fleet owners who run business on EV can’t afford to wait for their vehicle to be charged during the business hours, hence they either need a 10-15 minute fast charging ones or the long ranged ones good for a day. They also earn money from the consumers/businesses they serve and it works out for them but not for personal users. Test Drives: First and foremost : Somehow get over this surreal feeling that EVs provide, that quiet and silent drive in the first 10-15 minutes so that you can come down to earth and focus on the real EV aspects that matter in a day to day running. I know what it feels like and it is better than flying, because that’s what it is, they are silent by nature!! It is not like a Merc, Toyota or a Honda where they had to go to great lengths to perfect the noise isolation in the cabin despite the car being a noisy Diesel. Here the manufacturer has to screw up real bad to make an EV produce noise(of course other than the artificially added ones) or put a bad motor or drivetrain. EV is all about instant torque, hence there is a big difference in the way you drive them as well, lose your throttle flooring habits as that is not needed to generate the torque here. Instead a smooth and needed amount of throttle will do the job and throttle(ironic name) itself is tightly linked to the driving modes that car has. Majority of the City driving, stop and go requires this kind of driving, so better get used to it. And most of the time an EV is already quicker than most of the ICE vehicles in the City due to the instant torque available at all rpm ranges of the motor. If you really want to see the power, activate sports mode and test for a few hundred meters. This is why we don't compare the motor power directly with the ICE engine. I feel my 30-40bhp equivalent Verito is 100% enough for City conditions, now add another 20-30 bhp and that’s the max u need for highways for all practical purposes and anything more you are actually bathing in luxury of power and money since battery is drained faster :-D Single pedal driving or using the regen to your advantage can only be done once u have enough experience, so don’t bother about it, during test drive. Before beginning the test drive note down the SoC (State of Charge of the battery in %) and note down the Odo. EVs are as sensitive to load and additional power draw from AC and people in the car as ICE vehicles, But EVs stated range on the dash is in the hands of the AI/software that is predicting how long the battery will last in the current load and driving conditions, so better have some company to test out the real world performance is satisfying for you or not. Have people in the car and AC on. For the first few kms at least drive regularly and check out how the EV is able to tackle the ramps, speed breakers(The battery sits low, so the ground clearance with load is a factor that you should consider). Take it to some known uphill roads and parking lot ramps and see if it is able to get in and out of the ramps. Find a free stretch of the road such as some expressway or a private toll road like NICE in Bangalore nearby, so that you can test the high speed performance, according to me with today’s charging Infra if the car can cruise on highways at 90-100 and able to pass other vehicles at 120, you have a powerful and capable EV. Very soon you will also realize that these are not the best range producing speeds, so 90-100 is what your car will mostly travel on highways. Believe me you will do the same in your petrol or diesel car if the next bunk is 100km apart :-) You can also experiment with regen here (which is impossible in an ICE vehicle). Some vehicles activate the regen based on external settings and some as soon as you lift the throttle and some when you brake and some in combination, so it is completely vehicle dependent. With this combined driving cycle and once you return to the showroom/place of return note down the SoC and Odo again, now using the start and end SoC and Odo difference we will be able to derive an approx range in real world(real measure is expressed in Wh/km). This in the real world once you own an EV can be even better or completely worse depending on the terrain. So, this calculation will only serve you to make a decision on whether or not the range works out for your intended usage. Mine the details about the EV you have shortlisted. EVs are filled with electronics, so some details of what to look for from the manufacturer is key. EVs have two critical components and they are obviously “Motor” and “Battery” and expensive in terms of cost and hence these should be having the longest warranty terms. Like for example, BYD(5L kms/8 year), Tata and MG do (1.6L kms/ 8 years). Now there are other components like Contactor, BMS, Energy Management System, Charging sockets, Charger, Battery Cooling mechanisms, fans etc. Also, most EVs evolve constantly via OTA updates, this is because even the manufacturers are learning from the R&D and their customer base and updating how their vehicles function and handle in real world conditions. So, it is important to know if the car has the OTA capability and the manufacturer is an active one in keeping the vehicle up-to-date (For example:- Mahindra might not be doing anything after the initial release, whereas Ather(2W), MG and Tata constantly push updates with improvements to throttle and charging software). Looking at what all can go wrong, the warranty is good to have to cover for unwanted expenditures. Vehicle warranty Look for something that provides at least 5 years and see if the manufacturer allows you to extend it. EVs have far fewer components compared to ICE, but depending on the supply chain and testing the parts mileage could vary. Also, if you are one of those who constantly use fast chargers then it is like driving an ICE vehicle at 150 day in and out, fast chargers put immense current into the charging system and exercise life of charging circuit cables and most importantly battery. Unless it is a BYD I don’t recommend fast charging and if you are on highway travel then fine and that too plan to charge only to 80% or better only to what is needed to reach the next stop or destination where AC slow charging is available and planned (More on this later). Drivetrain and Powertrain Warranty Pick the maximum, today MG and Tata have set the standard and BYD(for fleet) has the max. Understand the IP(Ingress Protection) rating of your vehicle It is important to have IP-67 rating for the battery, motor and power electronics, Indian conditions can change from extremely dry to wet in a matter of months, your EV provider needs to make sure all this testing is done and the vehicle is capable of handling our waterlogged conditions and rains. Understand your battery chemistry. - Might not be super important in the later years as battery evolution continues and stabilizes, we will settle for something that is cheap to manufacture and long lasting and sustainable, but the knowhow is really needed now. - NMC and LFP batteries are two popular chemistries and they have their own advantages and disadvantages. LFP usually is of lower energy density than NMC batteries but with BYD cells they are able to provide same/almost same range as NMC ones since they reduced the battery protection casing material by re-architecting the cells and made it a lot safer than the NMC cells currently in use. 20% of the NMC battery pack weight must be going for its protection!! - Also LFP doesn’t use Cobalt which is not sourced in the most ethical manner today. Charging options This is an EV deal breaker for many. Understand what is the DC charging type for your vehicle, the most popular one worldwide is CCS-2(Combined Charging System) now and in India too this is the popular choice. Many old EVs(my Verito) have DC001 or GB/T connector which is a Chinese standard. Understand what are the AC charging options (there is a regular 15A charge option(3.3 KW max) and a 7KW 32A single phase special connection and some really high end ones demand a 3 phase 22KW AC charger so that their 70+kwh batteries can juice up overnight), bigger the battery more time is needed to charge unless one can setup a fast AC charger at home. I suggest settling on the 15A charge type if the time available between charges is good enough, as it is safer for the battery life and we as owners will adjust to what is available anywhere and everywhere. We haven’t completely mastered the way to fast charge without affecting or heating up the battery today, hopefully the XFC tech and solid state battery comes and changes this. Many manufacturers provide both Wall mount (higher capacity AC charger) and portable chargers that function based on a 15A socket. One needs to make sure he/she is aware while purchasing. Connected vehicle software. Ultra important, these connected vehicle features are a vanity in ICE but in an EV, it can really transform the experience. Things like knowing the SoC and scheduling the charge, and setting the charge limits, vacation mode to keep the battery healthy on those times when you are away from home. It is also important in case of NMC batteries not to keep 100% SoC if not using the car, it is better to plan to bring the car to 80% charge and wait and charge it just few hours before the use to bring it to 100% Another inevitable but important feature is TPMS(Tire Pressure Monitoring System): If the vehicle has it then good, otherwise add 4-5K for an external system to be installed. EV range can drastically reduce if the tire pressure is low and get you stranded in the middle of nowhere. Insurance addendums It is better to protect your vehicle charger under insurance if allowed(Electrical Accessory). Useful especially if the warranty terms don’t cover it. Many chargers tend to be expensive and the Indian grid can cause havoc on electronics at times. Final consideration: EVs consume a lot of current(in Amperes) for the charging hence don’t cheap out on sockets and cables if used for outside travel. Let the EV provider come home and assess your electrical situation and install the home charger. If you are preparing an extension cable roll for travels, do so with the highest thickness needed to handle the max current, for example my Verito needs a 4sq mm 3 core cable for lengths up to 25m. In the name of EV fix all those faulty electrical sockets, grounding and false phase and neutral wiring at home please. Don’t buy any Cona products, whereas GM, Havells and Anchor seem to hold the stated currents and have offered better experience by not burning out IMHO. If preparing an extension cable, have an MCB attached next to the charge socket as a switch to prevent vehicle from unintended short circuit and other mishaps. |
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13th April 2022, 08:52 | #2 | ||
Team-BHP Support | Re: Things to consider when buying an Electric Car Great thread, thanks for sharing! Quote:
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13th April 2022, 09:44 | #3 | ||
BHPian | Re: Things to consider when buying an Electric Car Quote:
My word of caution came about when I saw that bigger battery has only one advantage that is range, and if the range is 99% under-utilised then we are paying for garage beauty. - Bigger battery == More weight and hence the range increase need not be proportional - More time to charge, for example BYD provides 22KW home charger in the absence of such a thing it will take 24hrs to get the car charged in a normal 15A socket. - Battery tech is evolving for safety and life of battery, over investing here is like holding a dated equipment with high price in 2 years. MG definitely is the right offering and I am even more keen to see if BYD can bring some magic here to India in the form of BYD Dolphin. Quote:
Car will be 95% good and rest of 5% one has to bear with the company to evolve on you. In fact I own an Ather and agreed to do testing for them. I agree not everyone would be wanting to do the QA for the product. | ||
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13th April 2022, 10:30 | #4 |
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| Re: Things to consider when buying an Electric Car WRXXX says "investing here is like holding a dated equipment with high price in 2 years". Very true. I think the EV manufacturers are on a sort of a "learning curve", with the performance/quality of cars going upwards and the price going downwards. Eventually both curves will flatten out, at which time the risk WRXXX highlights will become acceptably low.. The question is : When? 2 years, 4 years? 5 years? |
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13th April 2022, 10:33 | #5 |
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| Re: Things to consider when buying an Electric Car Very informative thread. Just what the doctor ordered! I am currently in the process of evaluating an EV as a replacement for one of the three ICE cars in my family's garage. I was initially considering the Nexon EV so that my almost 90 km per day work-home trip can be made a bit more economical. But when I saw the 2022 ZS EV being launched with a claimed range of 461 kms (useful range of maybe 350 kms) I am seriously considering letting go of two of the ICE cars in our garage and making it the primary car of the household. As I am working closer to home now, we do not necessarily need 3 cars in the household and if at all the need arises, there's always Uber/Ola. My concerns are the following: 1. With battery degradation, the usable range will gradually shrink right? A nexon with 200kms range today might provide only 180km range after a few years. That's also one of the reason why my interest shifted from Nexon EV to ZS EV. The residual range after a few years might be better in an EV with an already longer range right? 2. High battery replacement costs. As of now, battery replacement could range anywhere from 8-10 lakh rupees, that's about 30-40% of the cost of the vehicle at purchase. So whatever cost savings we may have in terms of fossil fuel charges, we might need to pour it in to battery replacement later? Especially for people who tend to use their cars longer? 3. What about the resale value? Especially with expensive battery replacement down the line, we can't expect second buyer to shell out too much money right? 4. Noob question alert! Are these batteries surge proof? The weather at my place can go extreme pretty fast and lightning strikes are pretty common. We had our fair share of downed electronics in the past. Suppose my electric car was put on charge overnight during which there's a lightning strike, there is a potential for damage to the car right? 5. Due to the rapid pace of EV tech progress, there's also this lingering concern of being left out. What if there's a economical, swappable battery tech that is developed a few years down the line? And if it's not backwards compatible? |
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13th April 2022, 10:40 | #6 | ||||||
BHPian | Quote:
Most of the variance and correction is in battery and software(BMS) to manage them. It is already at an acceptable level barring the high cost and that is bound to come down drastically with solid state batteries (due in another 3 years for public consumption). Motors are already at their near maximum efficiency and people can live with them for another century even with a primitive version of them. Its Battery that is evolving. For majority of the urban public Nexon or MG ZS in India is already a practical EV. I would prefer to get a ZS ev Excite variant over a Petrol or Diesel Seltos even today. In the Future(atleast 2 years) Toyota/Maruti along with BYD might disrupt the market with high range and low cost EVs. And those who want a luxury affordable one get ready for EV6 or Ioniq, it can't better than that for another 3-4 years IMHO. Quote:
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If we buy Petrol or Diesel vehicle in a similar fashion then fuel cost will surprise us over the vehicle cost. on an average if the user runs 10K kms per year and 8 years 80K kms and have a cost of 10 rupee per km including running and maintenance that is 8L already. Atleast we didn't choke lungs of others while doing it :-) Quote:
I went to Mahindra showroom to get the battery report and check the charging cycles used and if there are any defective cells present. Luckily the battery was good. If the companies can do what Ather does in providing Battery life and health report that will improve the resale. Quote:
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Swappable, I am not so sure. Even Tesla toyed with this idea and then recalled that offering because no one would use. 99% I have always charged at home. Last edited by Aditya : 14th April 2022 at 12:35. Reason: Back to back posts merged | ||||||
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13th April 2022, 13:09 | #7 | |
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| Re: Things to consider when buying an Electric Car Quote:
Current GST on EVs is 5% as opposite to 28% on ICE vehicles. Once adoption goes high, I guess the GST would be on par with ICE counterparts. Road tax exemption in few states like Telangana which alone saves close to Rs, 1,40,000 for a MG ZS EV Section 80EEB allowing tax break of up to Rs. 1,50,000 on interest paid for car loan. This accounts to a direct savings of Rs. 45,000 for someone in 30% tax bracket. Most of these benefits would go away once EV adoption goes well and the cost of EV might not get all that cheap a few years from now. I am assuming cheaper battery tech would be offset but these subsidies going away. | |
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13th April 2022, 13:38 | #8 | |
BHPian | Re: Things to consider when buying an Electric Car Quote:
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13th April 2022, 16:32 | #9 |
BHPian | Re: Things to consider when buying an Electric Car Nice overview. Here is a link to my 2 cents : https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/elect...ml#post4834926 (Electric cars, their ecosystem & our mindset) |
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13th April 2022, 17:49 | #10 | |
BHPian | Re: Things to consider when buying an Electric Car Quote:
Thanks for sharing such a detailed write up. Will pin this for my reference. | |
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14th April 2022, 08:10 | #11 | |
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| Re: Things to consider when buying an Electric Car Quote:
Thanks for this superb post summing up many of the key considerations in buying an EV. I’ve loosely toyed with the idea of having one at some point and also test driven a few mainstream options. There were several aspects of your post that immediately resonated with my own thought process and many others, specially the more technical ones that I wasn’t so clear about and are super helpful for whenever I am on the verge of buying one. Most importantly, I do agree with your use case scenario, and as long as one has access to even a 15 AMP plug point at one’s residence, and even more helpful if you are a multi car garage, charging ability is genuinely overrated. Today, as a pure city car, an MG ZS EV might even make more sense than a Honda’s City hybrid - if you factor in aspects like driving pleasure etc as a total consideration. Last edited by Axe77 : 14th April 2022 at 12:40. Reason: Added missing apostrophe. | |
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14th April 2022, 12:26 | #12 | |
BHPian | Re: Things to consider when buying an Electric Car Quote:
Yes, as usual Honda is 3-4 years behind in launching the right product. For those people where a 350km per day is more than enough eZS makes total sense. With City hybrid I am slightly apprehensive about having to maintain the complex ICE EV coexistence, only relief is it is Honda. If charging infra was as developed as Europe or US, we will not even be having this discussion for sure. People already see the value even with just home charging. For City use EV is a no brainer even now. Like @GTO mentioned earlier, ZS is properly put together and CATL developing the battery and mostly VW for interior and mechanicals. It's a vehicle whose identity cannot be pointed in one direction. Quality and materials are very European too. My only complaint is get the i20 sized affordable hatch with 200km real world range and that's a city vehicle and a day tripper, they will hit a jackpot. This is where I am hoping BYD or Kia might save general public from emptying bank accounts in the name of EV. Last edited by Axe77 : 14th April 2022 at 12:41. Reason: Edit in quoted text | |
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15th April 2022, 14:07 | #13 |
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| Re: Things to consider when buying an Electric Car In our conditions I feel that EVs are still a bit premature. In US/EU, etc. the whole concept started because of variable electricity pricing (surplus and therefore low pricing / easy availability at night). Tesla has spent millions if not billions as first mover advantage to set up charging stations and offering free charging. However slowly they are charging more and more and have to allow other EVs also to use their network. In our country we have a perennial shortage of electricity with most towns subject to load shedding or running on DG sets. If we add lakhs of EVs to the mix I am not too sure which areas will need to go without power to compensate or we burn more diesel in the genset to charge the EV? Electricity is mostly produced by burning coal which is the dirtiest thermal source possible and add to that our poor pollution control norms for these plants. So from pollution point of view all we are doing is pushing it into somebody else's backyard. If not for the GST at 5% instead of 28% and nominal registration cost what do you think a Nexon EV will cost? Rs. 25 lakhs? It would be dead in the water. How do we account for the govt revenue if petro products consumption reduced by 50%? We have to evolve to green energy and a holistic planned approach to eventually move towards EVs in a phased manner as the technology evolves. On a lighter note - being a computer on wheels, better make sure your EMIs are paid promptly and/or you ensure you do not make any complaint against the EV dealer / manufacturer or powers that be. One switch flip and your EV will be dead as a dodo! |
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15th April 2022, 15:53 | #14 | |
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| Re: Things to consider when buying an Electric Car Quote:
The power situation in India is undergoing a massive transformation. Solar and wind capacity is being added at a rapid clip. Rooftop solar is getting popular. I hear that we are well sorted on the generation side. Just see how low the tariffs have reached for new projects. The main bottleneck now is the ability of the discoms to pay for that power and wheel it down to the end consumer. That's a political problem really since it requires discoms to stop freebies and theft. I don't see this as impossible to fix. Our thermal power plants may not be the cleanest, I agree. But I feel it is far easier to improve pollution controls at a few power stations than try to get millions of cars to be less polluting. Even otherwise, I think moving pollution out of congested cities into the relatively less populated countryside is a net gain. From an energy security perspective, it makes great sense to move to electric traction. Electricity can be produced with minimal or no dependency on imported hydrocarbons. We have enough indigenous coal deposits. We have immense potential for solar. Maybe even nuclear power. We no longer will be hostages of global upheavals. I think the government understands this well. The Indian Railways has been pushing for electrification in a big way precisely due to these reasons. Last edited by qaqa : 15th April 2022 at 15:56. | |
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15th April 2022, 22:18 | #15 |
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| Re: Things to consider when buying an Electric Car With eVs coming into mainstream - shouldn't SoH - State of health become a standard parameter for consumers to know ? I think there should be a strict regulation with clear information to the end consumer in a most simple way in the dashboard to know the state of health of the battery and not just SoC and range. 1) How many charge cycles have passed and how many are estimated left to reach say 75% deterioration 2) clear info at cell level if there is a rouge cell in the battery which is part of early mortality rate or a rouge cell developing - this is like glitch in the matrix 3) Depending on rogue cell or inefficient cell balancing what warranty claims I am entitled to ? 3) What should be the resale value of the battery depending on the State of health and overall charge cycles of the battery. 4) If there is any software update by OEM - whether this update improves the life of the battery - in corollary has the previous buggy software capable of bricking my battery ? As a end user I care little about it is NMC or LFP or ABCD. Can anyone through more light on SoH and regulations including the information that must or required to be made mandatory to the end user in order that it is helpful to choose a vehicle (battery) and empower the end user rights on warranty around battery. |
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