[speedmiester]

I can relate to the sentiment. The environmental reason was probably the last on the list for our purchase of MG ZS EV.
Personally I love the silent and effortless driving experience an EV provides especially within the maddening traffic within cities. Also ZS fits into my weekend driving habits of 300-400Kms which can be done in a single charge. At the same time, the power is always there for having fun times with the EV.
As of now, this will act as our primary car and will take over majority of our driving requirements.
My next wishlist is for a 6/7 seater EV with a range of 500kms.

[BrakeDancer]

Originally Posted by shyampsunder

1. Multiple studies have shown that even if you run an EV on a very dirty grid, it is still greener to use an EV. Example Bloomberg study: link

2. Would you prefer emissions in the city where millions live and walk on the roads by thousands of engines or one plant outside the city emitting smoke that can be easily captured/treated/regulated?

3. Do you worry about people buying gold will dump them in landfills later? It's the same with batteries. They are full of precious rare earths that dumping them in landfills is like dumping money into the ground. JB Straubel ex-CTO of Tesla is already recovering 92% of the materials used in building a battery: link



Would manufacturers offer 8 year warranty on batteries if they expect the majority of them need to be replaced at 5 to 7 years? Do you see manufacturers offering 8-year warranty on engine and transmission for ICE? What does it say about the reliability of these vehicles? MG Astor gets a 3-year warranty whereas the exact same car in the EV variant gets 5 year warranty. I am ignoring the 8 year battery warranty here. Even when you exclude the battery, MG expects the EV variant to be far more reliable than the ICE variant. I keep my cars for 10+ years and that is one of the reason my next car is going to be an EV

1. I could not read your link, it's probably behind a paywall. In any case, no one disputes that from an emissions point of view EV's are much better. I even said the same in my original comment. The important part is how we generate the electricity primarily in this country, and we are way behind UK and Europe when it comes to reliance on renewable sources of energy. It's not a very sound comparison. The energy needs and paying/purchasing power of the populace is way different in India.

2. I wouldn't prefer emissions at all, period. I didn't make the argument that emissions in the city would be preferable, so not sure again what the second point of your post is about. My post centered around the way EV's are marketed and the bunch of half truths that are accepted by some people who readily buy into the marketing hype. I think this is something that needs more checks and balances, with a more gradual transition towards cleaner sources of energy that makes the use of EV's more meaningful.

3. I don't worry about that because gold is a precious commodity. Used batteries would likely be not. What you're talking about is certain elements of the battery that may be re-used, but there will still be significant waste material and likely hazardous ones that need more careful disposal. Now, I am not a science guy so I am open to someone more knowledgeable on this giving their opinion.

An 8 year warranty means that yes, there would be a possibility of the batteries degrading before that. If it wasn't a possibility the manufacturer would likely offer a guarantee. Do they expect a majority of them to be replaced after 5-7 years? Likely not. But, this a new foray for manufacturers too and I expect a lot of trial and error in this coming decade when it comes to EV technology.

No, manufacturers do not offer 8 year warranties on ICE cars because of the fact that they are more complex, with more moving parts that can go wrong. Does not mean that they cannot be 'used' for more than what their manufacturers tell you they can be used for. In case of EV's the heart and soul of the car lives and dies with the battery- so it becomes a pretty important thing for the manufacturer to provide a warranty for a longer period. ICE engines don't fail in a wholesale manner, do they? It's usually components that can be changed or modified. In any case, I am all for EV's. Just that its important to know how it is that we generate this electricity that goes into the EV's and as consumers to make sure that the planned obsolescence that we see in other tech doesn't affect the cars in the same manner because it would be a disaster. It's a nation that still fails to provide electricity to many villages, far flung from the cities- so we aren't exactly sitting on reserves of energy. Electricity is still somewhat of a luxury for many, and the requirements, deficits etc. for a country like ours is way different compared to EU or UK.

[prashantuchil]

True, the environment aspect needs to be looked at holistically - not just emission. The greenhouse gases emitted/expended in the process to mine the raw materials and manufacturing the battery pack. Not to forget the impact it has during the disposal of the battery.

For Running Cost - I have done a simple calculation for cost per km.



So, every time I take my car out, it is costing me Rs 20.21 per km!

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by BrakeDancer

The important part is how we generate the electricity primarily in this country, and we are way behind UK and Europe when it comes to reliance on renewable sources of energy. It's not a very sound comparison. The energy needs and paying/purchasing power of the populace is way different in India.

This is atleast a decade old argument, now solar+wind+battery storage+hydro are cheaper even in poor countries like India than the coal energy. Off course, the only difference between India and UK is we love power cuts, and love playing poor card.

2. I wouldn't prefer emissions at all, period.

Walking is the only option, on a serious note get an EV and rooftop solar. Do remember, oil refineries also need massive electricity(same coal power) to refine oil.

Now, I am not a science guy so I am open to someone more knowledgeable on this giving their opinion.

JB Straubel is a science guy, he has a company which recycled 92% battery, what more proof you need? I feel he is one genuine guy, listen to 1 interview of his.

But, this a new foray for manufacturers too and I expect a lot of trial and error in this coming decade when it comes to EV technology.

It's already happening, not need to wait for one night at 8pm "from tomorrow the world will switch off all coal plants, oil refineries, ban all ICE cars" that's not how it works.

It's a nation that still fails to provide electricity to many villages, far flung from the cities- so we aren't exactly sitting on reserves of energy. Electricity is still somewhat of a luxury for many, and the requirements, deficits etc. for a country like ours is way different compared to EU or UK.

OK, let's provide clean energy to those villages, did any one stop us, or we need to wait for another 50 years till these villages are connected. Seriously I did not understand your argument here.

[GrammarNazi]

Begs the question : To what end are our Govts are spending billions in cash and kind to push EVs ?

Civil society must seek to obtain a clear, objective and comprehensive answer that precisely gives us the intended cause-effect of such policies.

[s.sriram1989@gm]

Originally Posted by SShandilya

EVs went from being uncool to being incredibly cool.
If proper infrastructure was available for charging (at least intra city) and an EV under 20L with real world range of 350-400 kms, I would buy one in a minute.

There’s a huge potential for EVs being a popular choice in India but like the topic says it’s got nothing to do with environment but how cheap it is to run. I’ve seen few uncles go wet after knowing how cheap the running cost is.

Actual situation of EV is exactly reverse of what people think of. It will harm the environment in long run, because of poor management of dead batteries and considering the increased mining of required metals for battery manufacturing it will go worse soon. Just for example consider e-rickshaws and scooters in Delhi, batteries are ripped open, contents thrown in gutters and metals are extracted by melting the parts. So is it really a solution?

[BrakeDancer]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

This is atleast a decade old argument, now solar+wind+battery storage+hydro are cheaper even in poor countries like India than the coal energy. Off course, the only difference between India and UK is we love power cuts, and love playing poor card.


Walking is the only option, on a serious note get an EV and rooftop solar. Do remember, oil refineries also need massive electricity(same coal power) to refine oil.


JB Straubel is a science guy, he has a company which recycled 92% battery, what more proof you need? I feel he is one genuine guy, listen to 1 interview of his.


It's already happening, not need to wait for one night at 8pm "from tomorrow the world will switch off all coal plants, oil refineries, ban all ICE cars" that's not how it works.


OK, let's provide clean energy to those villages, did any one stop us, or we need to wait for another 50 years till these villages are connected. Seriously I did not understand your argument here.

1. Oh they maybe cheaper alright in isolation. But, we are talking about production on a larger scale. Why do we still generate a huge majority of our electricity through traditional means if this is so simple? I don't know what you mean by 'we love power cuts' or 'playing the poor card'. The country is objectively poorer compared to the European countries or the UK. So, not sure what point you were trying to make.

2. Of course oil refineries need massive infrastructure and scale- but we are not here trying to talk about why they are harmful. We know that. The subject here is about the transition to cleaner sources of energy before we can make claims about EV's being the the next best thing, the way it affects the life of an automobile knowing how the tech world function, the nexus of technology- that is tech driving cars rather than cars having some tech.

3. Yeah I take your word on this JB Straubel chap, will listen to his interview. If that is something that can be achieved on scale, that would be hugely beneficial. What I will remind you is that there are a lot of stakeholders pushing towards EV's, and have bet on it big time, and we need to differentiate between what sounds promising but maybe a half-truth, and what really withstands scrutiny.

4. Of course its already 'happening'. But this is just the beginning. There is a long, long way to go before a country of this magnitude and diverse fuel needs, purchasing power, access, and risk appetite switch en masse to EV's or electric vehicles just because it's 'happening'. It's happening for a certain section of the society, no more.

5. My point was that seeing how we depend on non renewable sources to generate a huge chunk of our power, requirements, and how we have still not achieved rural electrification in far flung villages in some states, we are not a nation that has abundance of power to now shift that to vehicles on the road. If we are able to shift this burden to renewable sources too, then having vehicles that will be electric makes more sense. Hope that was clear. I did not understand a word of your response there so can't respond to that.

[varun.petro]

EVs mileage will be similar to battery backup of say a phone. Its amazing in beginning but after 3-4 years will start to decline and will get outright irritating few years later. With ICEs you get more comfortable with the machine over years but with EVs your love will decline every year till the point it gets unbearable.

With initial high costs and battery swap later on, maybe the maths of low running cost is just a fluke.

Every few days I forget to charge my phone overnight and suffer during the day. Same can be the case for EVs. Plus the additional time spent for waiting for a charger and then charging, rerouting to search for stations and constant fear in many cases of getting stranded midway.

EVs make good sense for daily office commute but they maybe are not a good choice for go anywhere vehicle

However, silent cabin is a big plus for which my next car may be an EV.

[rajivrt]

Originally Posted by am1m

But still, if we can move emissions from tailpipes to the power generation and manufacturing sources, it'll still be easier to control and we'll get better air in our cities at least. So that's still a considerable win.

Great points. Still, I would not assume shifting the emission to a distance will make a difference. There is currently no compelling point why I should shift to an EV, except a diktat from the Government.

Market forces should be able to take that decision over a period of time. Why ram rod this down people's throats in a hurry?

And once you go in and research seriously those so called opinions published by the woke media, you would be hard pressed to believe they have a case for EV, yet.

[am1m]

Originally Posted by rajivrt

Still, I would not assume shifting the emission to a distance will make a difference.

Fair enough, though I assume it would be easier to regulate and monitor emissions at generation stations and manufacturers than in lakhs of vehicles. Plus removing ICE emissions from our cities sounds good!

Originally Posted by rajivrt

Market forces should be able to take that decision over a period of time.

Agreed. I have a positive outlook about EVs, I'm worried about the air quality, but I don't see myself paying a higher price for a vehicle that is more of a hassle to own at this point. (Lesser range, range anxiety on highways, searching for charging stations, apartment buildings still not allowing charging points, build quality (Ola!))

IMHO, it has to be more than just the environment angle at this point, the EV should be as easy to own as a comparable ICE model.

[anandhsub]

Came across this article and was reminded of this thread.

The owner of a Jaguar i-PACE, an electric SUV, would spend £99 more to travel the same distance as a driver in the petrol equivalent, the Jaguar f-PACE, according to calculations by breakdown service, the RAC.

I hope this never happens in India, but with Russian gas getting cut off leading to a spike in gas and hence electricity prices it is now cheaper to run petrol cars than EVs in the UK.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by anandhsub

Came across this article and was reminded of this thread.



I hope this never happens in India, but with Russian gas getting cut off leading to a spike in gas and hence electricity prices it is now cheaper to run petrol cars than EVs in the UK.

The author of the article admitted to using wrong numbers, blames sub editors. It is never going to be cheaper to run petrol car than an EV.

https://twitter.com/LeoHickman/statu...6431739658240?

Worth reading:

https://twitter.com/DrSimEvans/statu...8632301072384?

[mohanphadnis]

Originally Posted by SKC-auto

The author of the article admitted to using wrong numbers, blames sub editors. It is never going to be cheaper to run petrol car than an EV.

Good this guy accepted his number fudging.

Generally something that is 85% efficient will be cheaper to run than something that is less than 30% efficient. That is just the fact of life. If you actually generate at home, it will always be cheaper.

For all these people crying about EVs getting expensive to run, I generate my miles at home from sun, never heard of anyone running their own well/refinery combo to get dino juice at home.

No one can force you to take the electrons from an utility, if you are generating them yourself at home. Most utilities can do is reject connecting home solar systems to the grid, which means, you need to go off grid, with excess storage and generating capacity. Still will be cheaper than running on petrol.

[SKC-auto]

Originally Posted by mohanphadnis

Good this guy accepted his number fudging.

Just another day for BBC, Daily mail and Telegraph.

There is an article recently published in BBC(IIRC) about a road trip in US by a first time EV user(hired TM3 from hertz for the report). She selects the worst possible route, does noob mistakes and declares EVs does not work.

Even here, see how the author shamelessly deletes his post.