[inwester]

Originally Posted by sri_tesla

Decent pricing in my opinion. Personally, I will take XUV400 over Nexon prime or Max.

Originally Posted by Shreyans_Jain

They haven’t priced this to sell. The base car is already 5 years old, is a relatively slow seller as compared to its peers and comes with a pretty dated cabin even by 2019 standards.

Originally Posted by Geta

Personally I feel the top variant of XUV400 at Rs. 18.99 lacs is tremendous value for money over Nexon EV max and MG ZS EV.
Thanks.

Decent pricing IMHO.

It's a larger car in all dimensions, bigger bootspace, longer wheelbase, similar battery capacity and more range, faster by a second, more safety features and probably a better ride.

Yes, the interiors look a bit dated for 2023, but you are getting a compact car priced similarly to a sub-compact.

I think this will do well. If I were picking between Nexon EV Max and XUV 400 (the top variants with bigger batteries and 7.2 kW charger), I would pick XUV 400.

[antz.bin]

As of now, the apples to apples comparison is between the XUV4OO EL and the Nexon EV Max. The lower variant of the XUV4OO is not available till Diwali and a lot may change between now and then.

Clearly, the XUV4OO is the better *priced* car here. Anyone looking at finalising the Nexon EV Max could be better served with an XUV4OO.

I wonder how the XUV managed to get the longer range considering it packs in ~1 KWH less battery capacity compared to the Nexon.

If we look objectively, there are a lot of wins for the XUV

XUV wins with:
Longer wheelbase (this should be the new age metric that we compare EV/ICE cars with instead of total length when comparing spaciousness)
(5%) Bigger Boot
Longer overall length
More power
Better Rated range
Faster 0-100
Higher top speed
More Active safety features

Subjectively and practically, there are some wins for the Nexon EV as well.
Nexon EV wins:
Wider Availability of Variants (Prime and Max)
Time in the market, 1st hand feedback from owners available
Based on the top selling car in the segment, the only non Maruti in the top 5 selling car in India.
Govt. Subsidy available NOW (vs NA for XUV)
Real world feedback and improvements already in progress
Resolution of Teething troubles with 3rd party charging networks already in progress
Auto AC, ESP, Hill Hold, Traction Control and Hill Descent Control are essential features and are missing on the XUV.

There is a lot of catching up to do for Mahindra to overcome the Nexon. They have made a good challenger so lets hope this helps expand the market.

[fiat_tarun]

Originally Posted by antz.bin

...
XUV wins with:
.
.
.
More Active safety features

Subjectively and practically, there are some wins for the Nexon EV as well.
Nexon EV wins:
.
.
.
Auto AC, ESP, Hill Hold, Traction Control and Hill Descent Control are essential features and are missing on the XUV.

The more 'Active Safety' features actually goes to the Nexon EV Max since it has ESP and 'Passive Safety' will go to the XUV with it's 6 airbags.

ESP is underestimated as it helps avoid so many accidents and is a big miss from the XUV400. Hopefully it is offered soon.

Even NCAP's give ESP a lot of weightage and in the latest GNCAP protocol, no ESP will cap the star rating to 2* irrespective of the crash performance.

[wocanak]

Originally Posted by antz.bin

I wonder how the XUV managed to get the longer range considering it packs in ~1 KWH less battery capacity compared to the Nexon.

XUV 400 uses NMC battery, which has higher energy density, so will be lighter compared to Nexon's LFP battery and this translates to higher range even with slightly smaller capacity.

On the flip side LFP is more thermally stable and offers many more charge discharge cycles before capacity degrades. So Nexon with LFP offers better safety and longer battery life.

Most other car makers are moving to LFP, original MG ZS was NMC but switched to LFP with 2022 MG ZS, the current Kona sold in India is some kind of polymer NMC, but newer Hyundai and Kia models are LFP. But Mahindra decided to go with NMC battery for XUV 400.

[sri_tesla]

Originally Posted by wocanak

XUV 400 uses NMC battery, which has higher energy density, so will be lighter compared to Nexon's LFP battery and this translates to higher range even with slightly smaller capacity.

The efficiency is not just due to heavier LFP batteries. Motor efficiency also plays an important role. Hyundai Kona always had a much better rated and real-world range than the original MG ZS EV (NMC). The motor in XUV400 is from Valeo (erstwhile Valeo Siemens) and it's a very refined, efficient motor with good performance.

Originally Posted by wocanak

On the flip side LFP is more thermally stable and offers many more charge discharge cycles before capacity degrades. So Nexon with LFP offers better safety and longer battery life.

Most other car makers are moving to LFP, original MG ZS was NMC but switched to LFP with 2022 MG ZS, the current Kona sold in India is some kind of polymer NMC, but newer Hyundai and Kia models are LFP. But Mahindra decided to go with NMC battery for XUV 400.

The major reason for car companies going for LFP batteries is the cost and availability. Tesla started this trend of using LFP batteries in low-end variants of Model 3 and Model Y as those batteries are cheaper than NMC and available in huge capacities due to Chinese companies' (CATL, BYD, CALB, etc...) large-scale production.

Hyundai/Kia uses NMC batteries (sourced from LG Chem and SK Innovation) in all of their models across the world including India. Only in China, they are using LFP batteries.

[Geta]

Originally Posted by antz.bin

I wonder how the XUV managed to get the longer range considering it packs in ~1 KWH less battery capacity compared to the Nexon.

I guess it has got more to do with the drive modes. XUV400 will very likely have a more conservatively tuned 'Eco' mode to get the bragging rights over Nexon EV in reference to the battery range. In the other drive modes, I guess, Nexon would offer a better range due to its smaller size and that 1 KWh extra juice in its battery.

[antz.bin]

Seems that they have fixed the range disadvantage on the Nexon EV Max.

https://www.team-bhp.com/news/tata-n...iants-rejigged

It took them less than 24 hours to nullify the range advantage the XUV had. They went ahead and rationalized the prices as well. And since this is a software update, this will be applicable to all the Nexon EV Max sold till date.

Your move Mahindra!

[souravdas808]

Originally Posted by Geta

Very unnecessary statement. sri_tesla was just stating the facts. You are comparing Nexon ICE to XUV300. He was comparing XUV400 to Nexon EV, which is indeed more spacious (4200mm vs 4000 mm), faster ( 0-100 times of 8.3 sec vs 9.xx sec) and safer (5* safety, 6 airbags vs 2 airbags), and he was accurate.

TATA also cut prices of Nexon EV to match Top model XZ+Lux at 18.99 and increased range to same as XUV400. Now Mahindra has basically no advantage over TATA. Remember Nexon EV Max is a tried and tested product and Mahindra will use customers as beta testers for XUV400 with lots of bugs and important features missing initially.

Mod Note: Please quote ONLY the relevant bits of a post. Quoting a full, long post inconveniences our mobile readers.

[Geta]

Originally Posted by souravdas808

TATA also cut prices of Nexon EV to match Top model XZ+Lux at 18.99 and increased range to same as XUV400. Now Mahindra has basically no advantage over TATA. Remember Nexon EV Max is a tried and tested product and Mahindra will use customers as beta testers for XUV400 with lots of bugs and important features missing initially.

Mod Note: Please quote ONLY the relevant bits of a post. Quoting a full, long post inconveniences our mobile readers.

I don't think Tata has made Nexon EV longer and faster and added 4 airbags overnight. Hence the points made by sri_tesla are still very much valid.
May I humbly point out that nobody needs to 'remember' anything here? We are not having a mud slinging contest. We are only discussing about a newly launched product. Somebody shared their opinion that XUV400 should undercut Nexon EV by a good margin (Tata motors themselves didn't subscribe to this idea as evidenced by the price 'rationalisation' today) and hence I gave my opinion that XUV400 is already tremendously VFM for its price. Thanks to Tata motors for vindicating me.

I would rather be passionately reasonable than reasonably passionate.

Thanks.

[vtires2018]

I don't know why Tata and Mahindra don't offer 50 or 60 kWh battery like MG and BYD. The cost increase really would not be that huge, maybe 2 L more, but the range anxiety of real world 250-300 KM with smaller batteries (30-40 kWh) is gone completely, and customers can use dirt cheap "home" charging instead of locating "outside" expensive charging plugs which may or may not be functional. Larger battery just gives more peace of mind ! This will be useful for taxis and fleets as well, as I see more and more taxi operators choose EV 's due to really low running cost.

[souravdas808]

Originally Posted by vtires2018

I don't know why Tata and Mahindra don't offer 50 or 60 kWh battery like MG and BYD. The cost increase really would not be that huge, maybe 2 L more, but the range anxiety of real world 250-300 KM with smaller batteries (30-40 kWh) is gone completely, and customers can use dirt cheap "home" charging instead of locating "outside" expensive charging plugs which may or may not be functional. Larger battery just gives more peace of mind ! This will be useful for taxis and fleets as well, as I see more and more taxi operators choose EV 's due to really low running cost.

The conventional cars do not have enough space optimised for bigger batteries and will make the car unstable breaching structural capacity. The upcoming Harrier EV will be Gen-2 EV platform which will be optimised for housing 60 kWh battery.

[aim120]

Originally Posted by vtires2018

I don't know why Tata and Mahindra don't offer 50 or 60 kWh battery like MG and BYD. The cost increase really would not be that huge, maybe 2 L more, but the range anxiety of real world 250-300 KM with smaller batteries (30-40 kWh) is gone completely, and customers can use dirt cheap "home" charging instead of locating "outside" expensive charging plugs which may or may not be functional. Larger battery just gives more peace of mind ! This will be useful for taxis and fleets as well, as I see more and more taxi operators choose EV 's due to really low running cost.

If you look at the Nexon Max, Tata has squeezed as much as possible. Anymore kwh will require a car with larger wheel base. I guess the Harrier and Sierra will come with packs upto 100kwh.
In ICE vehicles with high ground clearance, a EV converted variant can double stack the battery to get double capacity at the cost of ground clearance.

Placing the motor and inverter away from the wheelbase side and in horizontal stack, will also give us a frunk. Sadly the off the shelf motor/VCU are all vertical, so a lot of space is wasted. Only US car companies give huge frunk sizes.

In DIY EV conversions using Tesla LDU/SDU, they are able to fill up the engine bay area full of batteries. These conversions while road legal in many western countries don't need to be crash tested, where as OEM conversion has to be crash tested. So that is the reason we don't see batteries under the bonnet/Hood from car makers, instead its between the wheelbase.

[Geta]

Originally Posted by vtires2018

I don't know why Tata and Mahindra don't offer 50 or 60 kWh battery like MG and BYD. The cost increase really would not be that huge, maybe 2 L more, but the range anxiety of real world 250-300 KM with smaller batteries (30-40 kWh) is gone completely, and customers can use dirt cheap "home" charging instead of locating "outside" expensive charging plugs which may or may not be functional. Larger battery just gives more peace of mind ! This will be useful for taxis and fleets as well, as I see more and more taxi operators choose EV 's due to really low running cost.

The MAIN reason is the Law of Diminishing returns, i.e, increasing the battery capacity does not increase the range in a linear manner. For every additional kWh, the kms gained keeps decreasing.

Batteries are heavy. Very heavy. As a rule of thumb, every 10 kWh battery capacity will add an additional weight of 65 kg to the car.

So, if a 1465 kg Nexon EV Max with a 40 kWh battery has a real world range of 360 kms, a Nexon EV with a 60 kWh battery will weigh 1595 kg and will have a range of only 496 km! Just a 37.5% increase in the range for a 50% increase in battery capacity!

Worse, hypothetically, if we load a Nexon EV with a 80 kWh battery pack, it's weight increases to 1725 kg and the range increases to just 611 kms. I e, a 25% increase in range for a 33.33% increase in battery capacity. Frankly not worth carrying around 260 kg of extra load on a daily basis(equal to the weight of 4 adults) for an additional range of 250 kms, which we may use only once in 3-4 months.

Moreover, the 30 kWh battery of Nexon EV prime takes 9 hours 10 mins to charge to 100% using a 3.3 kW charger (as per the brochure). In Nexon EV Max, the 40 kWh battery takes 15-16 hours to charge to 100% with the same charger. Hence it will be reasonable to assume that a 60 kWh battery will need at least 28-30 hours to charge (from 0-100%) using a 3.3 kW charger. No way this is going to help alleviate any range anxiety.

A 40 kWh battery may improve the ride quality, but a 60 or 80 kWh battery is going to put severe strain on the chassis, suspension, wheels and will lead to tyre bursts if we happen to drive over a huge pothole at 100 kmph. Not worth the risk at all! The additional weight will affect the performance and will be a headache while climbing uphill and while overtaking on highways. So the car will need a bigger motor, which will add to the cost and will reduce the range.

Even cars like Harrier EV (kerb weight 1400 kg without engine, gearbox and battery pack), hypothetically speaking, with a 100 kWh battery, will weigh about 2050 kgs and will have a real world range of only about 650 kms, against the same vehicle having a range of 500 kms with a 70 kWh battery, and about 195 kgs lighter.

And... The cost! Batteries are crazy expensive. 2 years back a Tata sales executive told me that the cost of the 30 kWh battery pack was about Rs 7 lakhs. Not sure about the cost now. But it is safe to assume that a 60 kWh battery pack alone can cost between Rs 10-15 lakhs today!

I would rather live with range anxiety ��

[Geta]

Originally Posted by Geta

The MAIN reason is the Law of Diminishing returns, i.e, increasing the battery capacity does not increase the range in a linear manner. For every additional kWh, the kms gained keeps decreasing.

Batteries are heavy. Very heavy. As a rule of thumb, every 10 kWh battery capacity will add an additional weight of 65 kg to the car.

So, if a 1465 kg Nexon EV Max with a 40 kWh battery has a real world range of 360 kms, a Nexon EV with a 60 kWh battery will weigh 1595 kg and will have a range of only 496 km! Just a 37.5% increase in the range for a 50% increase in battery capacity!

Worse, hypothetically, if we load a Nexon EV with a 80 kWh battery pack, it's weight increases to 1725 kg and the range increases to just 611 kms. I e, a 25% increase in range for a 33.33% increase in battery capacity. Frankly not worth carrying around 260 kg of extra load on a daily basis(equal to the weight of 4 adults) for an additional range of 250 kms, which we may use only once in 3-4 months.

I would rather live with range anxiety ��

(Screenshot attached). Here we can clearly see that, across manufacturers and models, the battery weight remains fairly constant at about 70-75kg per 10 kWh.


Based on the above mentioned points, I feel, rather than longing for cars with a huge battery, we should be satisfied with a 300-400 km real world range plus inductive charging on the highways. Most highways in India have abundant sunshine throughout the year and inductive charging is very much feasible/practical here.

[wocanak]

Originally Posted by Geta

Based on the above mentioned points, I feel, rather than longing for cars with a huge battery, we should be satisfied with a 300-400 km real world range plus inductive charging on the highways.

Keep in mind that only 70% of the real world is usable because you want to keep at least 10% as reserve and fast charging is fast only up to 80%. So this makes the max 100% real world range required to be ~570. That will also provide room for spirited ICE like driving.

I think very few cars will target range beyond that and this is what most ground up EV platform cars are targeting. Since the cars in India are smaller, they maybe able to provide this range within ~2000 kg.