[abhatt]

This is a no-brainer car for me but it's difficult to convince my wife that it will not be similar to 100s of Taxis on the road. I see these being the new Indicas in Bangalore soon.

[gngdev]

I have paid the booking amount for Tiago ev XZ+ LR version. I feel at around 11.75 L on road, it is terrific value for money. I had earlier booked a Nexon EV and cancelled as I felt I am spending too much above my comfort zone.

Few points in the thought process:
1. I have a daily drive of about 40+ Kms. So this should translate into a considerable savings of around 6 -7k Kms per month. Anticipates low maintenance costs as well.

2. If running costs are low (I am planning to install solar power at home so should be almost 0), I feel it might lead to us go out for a drive more often (Like a drive to the beach 30 Km away). The more you drive, the savings in running costs should be more than the cost of the car itself. Since the battery and motor is covered for 8 year/ 1,60,000 Kms. I am good till then. Even if the state of resale value at that point is uncertain, we would have recovered the cost of the car by then. I am hoping this would result in us going out for a drive more often.

3. The IT benefits for EV car loan is applicable only for loans granted until 31 March. The deliveries for Tiago EV will begin only by Jan, so I am not sure if Altroz/Punch EV would arrive by then. Might shift the booking if the deliveries are in sight and the increase in cost is manageable.

4. Not sure how long the benefits (low road tax) lasts. With increasing adoption this might be reduced or completely taken off. This could increase the cost later. The IT benefits on car loand for example is not applicable post March 2023.
P.S cross posting here from the original thread. Please feel free to delete this if not appropriate

[padmrajravi]

Originally Posted by ajayc123

I agree about the state wise price tax implication and the 10L cutover, but my specific reference was at the top variant, both of which are above 10L. But, sorry for the confusion, my reference was 11.79L Tiago vs 13.64L. And sorry, I just calculated and this turns out to be 15%.

For the top variant, it is a no-brainer. The Tigor EV is a better pick. In Kerala, the top variant Tiago EV is 13.08 and the top variant Tigor EV is 14.8. That difference is irrelevant when you consider the additional value offered by Tigor.

But most of the excitement in this thread is about Tiago's base variants. With auto climate control and steering tilt adjustment, the XE has all the basics except for infotainment at 9.38L. The XT variant is also good value for money. It has got driver seat adjustment and infotainment with AA and steering controls. That covers everything an urban commuter needs. It is exactly at 10L onroad in Kerala - 3.6L cheaper than the cheapest Tigor EV.

Originally Posted by abhatt

This is a no-brainer car for me but it's difficult to convince my wife that it will not be similar to 100s of Taxis on the road. I see these being the new Indicas in Bangalore soon.

True that. This is the Indica diesel moment again for Tata.

[Nanolover]

Originally Posted by Omkar

There are a few points that need to be considered here:
4. The Tigor EV's 170 Nm torque doesn't feel very snappy like you would expect in EVs (It's sedate). Maybe the feedback was that most customers weren't using the car to do acceleration runs. This is probably why Tata brought down the torque on the Tiago to get some more range.

Tigor ev 170 nm torque is only released when in S mode. Default drive mode is limited to 120 NM. In S mode tigor is more than fleet footed although at the cost of range.

[Jekyl87]

Similar to gngdev above, I've booked a Tiago ev LR XZ+. I booked it immediately after the launch on 28th. The dealer is doing unofficial bookings (tigor ev) which they'll change to Tiago on 10th. They've assured me they'll be able to login my booking within the introductory price. Fingers crossed. Attaching here the price list in Delhi for the tiago EV as well as the tiago petrol which others might find helpful.

My dad owns a 2017 tiago petrol AMT which has been a largely niggle free experience except the AMT part which is quite laggy compared to my Dzire 2016 zxi+ ags. This will be my 2nd car for myself, as my wife really loves driving the dzire and my office commute of 80 km (round trip) has been impacting the household budget since the last few months.

Tiago is a product i've known and driven multiple times over the last few years courtsey my dad, and I really like it. My first choice was Nexon ev, but due to the uncertainty of EV development for the next few years, this cheaper option comes at a perfect time to get my feet wet in the kiddie pool before taking the plunge when I replace the dzire after a few years. I think the price is perfect and we'll see along waiting period on this one. Almost all the features (except cruise control) are at par with my Dzire with some minor ones present in my 6 year old Dzire missing from this one (rear vents, led projector headlamps, alloy wheels) which is understandable for a small hatchback, and at least the headlamps and alloys can be done aftermarket if required.

The only niggle playing on my mind is the apparent low power, and hence the TD will determine whether I go ahead with the car or not, as i'l like to run this as a hot hatch (always on sports mode) for my daily commute (<100 km range required) . Will add more information as it comes from the dealer on my booking.

P. S. This is my first team bhp post. Long time lurker, but hopefully am now a regular contributor.

[Durango Dude]

With this Tata onslaught the Koreans, Japs and Europeans must be scratching their heads as to what to do? It's as VFM as it get's and no one can ignore this mouthwatering starting price and well tailored range for a city slicker. Add to this regen modes and other goodies, it's very tempting indeed. Would make a good first EV for anyone on the look out to get one without burning a hole in one's wallet. Let's see Tata becoming the second largest automaker in the coming years. If only sales, service and products can see a quantum leap in quality.

[SatheeshBHP]

Originally Posted by ajayc123

(Tigor vs Tiago)
Battery 26 kWh vs 24 kWh ( about 8% higher)
PS 74 in both
Torque 170 Nm vs 114 Nm (50% higher) - this could help with drivability
Range 306 km vs 315 km

Originally Posted by Omkar

4. The Tigor EV's 170 Nm torque doesn't feel very snappy like you would expect in EVs (It's sedate). Maybe the feedback was that most customers weren't using the car to do acceleration runs. This is probably why Tata brought down the torque on the Tiago to get some more range.

Contrary to Popular Belief, More Torque does not always mean more drivability/Acceleration

Yes, At same Gear Ratios and engine RPM, more torque means more acceleration.

But Tigor and Tiago uses different drivetrain ratios.

Tiago motor has wider constant torque RPM band than tigor.
4600rpm vs 3100rm.

Tiago should feel more linear than Tigor and high speed performance fall off should be less apparent.

Same 74ps power and same 5.7Sec 0-100 acceleration but lower torque should have given a clue.

Additionally Tiago uses 320V architecture just like Nexon. so lower peak currents should result in less resistive losses and increased efficiency.

TATA uses cylindrical LFP cells with 3.2V 15Ah rating.

Tiago MR uses cells in 100Series4Parallel = 3.2V x 100 x 15Ah x 4 = 19.2kWh[400 Cells]
Tiago MR uses cells in 100Series5Parallel = 3.2V x 100 x 15Ah x 5 = 24kWh[500 Cells]

and little scoop for TBHP - Each cell costs 835 INR. You can calculate the total battery replacement spare costs!

Originally Posted by ajayc123

If 170 Nm doesn't feel snappy, I am surmising how 115 Nm would feel. While this could work out in the city, but my hunch is this might become quite a challenge during highway overtaking, given the nature of the EV motor torque curve that diminishes very fast at higher speeds.

I actually wanted to answer this in the other thread but that thread got closed.

Not all PMSM motors are created equal! The curves you attached have high CSPR ratio.

But EV traction motors usually target much lower CSPR ratios.

for E.G, in the 50KW Motor you attached, The torque starts to fall of at 1200 rpm but has 400NM peak torque but Tiago has 114 NM Peak torque and max torque extends till 4600 rpm!

To simplify, EV traction motors are optimized so that most of operating range of motor falls in the Constant torque zone and less in the constant power zone. Its all in the gear ratios.

To readers:

Please do not assume the tiago EVs have poor performance. Just do a test drive and decide for yourselves.

[sahakar]

Originally Posted by Cresterk

I was under the impression that this gets the same drivetrain from the tigor. Any word on the performance with the reduced torque? Does smartwatch connectivity mean an app for our personal apple/android smartwatches or does TATA provide their own smartwatch that we are forced to use?

It's an app of course. Available on Google Play and Apple Store

Cheers

[ajayc123]

Originally Posted by SatheeshBHP

Tiago motor has wider constant torque RPM band than tigor.
4600rpm vs 3100rm.

Tiago should feel more linear than Tigor and high speed performance fall off should be less apparent.

Same 74ps power and same 5.7Sec 0-100 acceleration but lower torque should have given a clue.

Additionally Tiago uses 320V architecture just like Nexon. so lower peak currents should result in less resistive losses and increased efficiency.

TATA uses cylindrical LFP cells with 3.2V 15Ah rating.

Tiago MR uses cells in 100Series4Parallel = 3.2V x 100 x 15Ah x 4 = 19.8kWh[400 Cells]
Tiago MR uses cells in 100Series5Parallel = 3.2V x 100 x 15Ah x 5 = 24kWh[500 Cells]

To simplify, EV traction motors are optimized so that most of operating range of motor falls in the Constant torque zone and less in the constant power zone. Its all in the gear ratios.

Thanks. That is very interesting information. (like "andar ki baat").

Just a couple of more questions to attempt to improve the understanding in the context of the car in question:

1. What's the top rpm of a motor with characteristics similar to the one in Tiago?

2. Is there any reference graph of the torque vs speed for the motor in question, something similar to the second graph that I had put for Tesla where it appeared that the torque rapidly dropped after 40 mph?

In a nutshell, back to the same question, will this car be able to overtake vehicles on highway say at 80-90 kmph comfortably or will it struggle?

Originally Posted by abhatt

This is a no-brainer car for me but it's difficult to convince my wife that it will not be similar to 100s of Taxis on the road. I see these being the new Indicas in Bangalore soon.

Thanks for the timely alert. Very sensitive matter indeed and yeah needs to be factored into.the purchase decision. It is strange that sometimes, matters like these could veto a decision.

[oli.ferns]

tata posted a video comparing the puncture kit to the traditional method:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2zA...obilityLimited

[lina]

Tata, Team-bhp and everyone needs to stop saying 0-80% in 50 min on a 50kW charger. This makes buyers think that the car can charge at 50kW. It cant. This car can barely charge at 15 or 16kW as per my calculations.

Marketing like this creates unnecessary frustration at fast chargers. There are a few chargers on the highways these days where we have an option between a 50kW charger and slower options. Folks driving Nexon and Tigor insist that their cars charge faster on the 50kW charger thanks to false marketing when the reality is that the Nexon charges at 22kW and Tigor at 19kW. Even the Nexon Max charges only at 30kW.

[SRT_Dwarka]

Originally Posted by SatheeshBHP

Tiago should feel more linear than Tigor and high speed performance fall off should be less apparent.


To readers:

Please do not assume the tiago EVs have poor performance. Just do a test drive and decide for yourselves.

Wow that is a very detailed and technical reply! Now I wonder, where did you get this detailed technical info from, I'm quite curious, and have never come across such depth in the public domain so soon after launch, when even drive reviews aren't out yet. Are we interacting with Indian Sandy Munro?

Also, the cylindrical cells bit is highly interesting, this seems to be a departure from their earlier prismatic approach. Would you by any chance be aware of the reasons? What format are these cells?

[FireBlade]

Boy, this is going to be a game changer. Tiago EV is exactly what our country needed(to make EVs ubiquitous).

By the way, when is the review coming out?

[Cresterk]

Originally Posted by SatheeshBHP

Contrary to Popular Belief, More Torque does not always mean more drivability/Acceleration


To readers:

Please do not assume the tiago EVs have poor performance. Just do a test drive and decide for yourselves.

To add on to this, horsepower is what truly determines acceleration. That old saying about 'horsepower sells cars, torque wins races' is just a bunch of clever marketing bullshit.


Horsepower = (torque X rpm) / 5225
We will ignore the 5225 part just to keep things as simple as possible.


Simply put, to increase horsepower you can do either of two things : increase torque OR increase max engine RPM.


A car with 200hp and 100nm torque will be much faster than a car with 100hp and 200nm torque.


The reason a car with 200nm of torque generally feels faster is because no one actually revs their ICE car up all the way to redline during normal driving or cruises at 6k rpm. Unlike ICE, there is no huge sound or reduced fuel consumption and smoke at higher RPMs for EVs.

[ajayc123]

Well, the simple linearity in the power=torque * rpm is appreciated, but my impression is that in real world the torque generated by the PMSM motor diminishes beyond a certain rpm and even the product of the torque and rpm starts flattening out and gradually starts going down. Under such circumstance, the vehicle may find it harder to overcome the friction and wind resistance at higher speeds. Hence my curiosity.

So as per my impression a higher powered motor running at lower rpm is better than a lower powered motor at higher rpm.

My impression got reinforced by the visual 10a in this paper.

https://mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/en...ion=1527588684

I would love to be improved upon my current understanding by experts (read, guys who are designing EV motors or researching on PMSM)