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Old 14th June 2024, 21:42   #16
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Re: May 2024 | Electric Vehicle Sales Figures

I think there's a significant percentage of people for whom EVs are not even an option when shortlisting vehicles. Current models and infrastructure does not allow it. Either a sudden increase in oil prices or an iphone moment is required for EVs to break further barriers.
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Old 16th June 2024, 09:57   #17
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Re: May 2024 | Electric Vehicle Sales Figures

Quote:
Originally Posted by wocanak View Post
...Main culprit is Tata who have been unable to increase the charging speed of their cars for 4+ years (marginal increase has come from having bigger battery). Difficult to give larger range in the smaller cars, but why can't they give faster charging. Not clear if it is technically challenging or if they underestimated the importance of this feature. .
I won't blame Tatas. Others have not done it as well. The reason is simple, it adds to the cost of bill-of-materials and manufacturers aren't sure the customers will pay extra for it. Its not just the cost of the faster charger in the car. You need more sophisticated sensors and thermal management (it gets hotter, faster), the coolant and the coolant circulation system needs to be more sophisticated, operate at higher pressure for faster circulation and heat evacuation and be more fail-safe. It also impacts the "probabilistic models" that influence warranty calculations. Again, all of these add to the cost. Where it does make the most sense, of course, is in the taxi market. A well executed EV transition will make taxis a lot more profitable for operators/ drivers even at the current chargeout and rental rates.

Policy support can help by :
(1) giving "direction" that this 100 Kw + chargers will soon be mandatory , say in two years time. That gives both direction and certainty to OEMs to start building it into their products
(2) taxing these at the lowest 5% GST. I am not sure but I heard from some friends that though the EVs have a lower GST rates, many of the critical sub-systems do not enjoy the same benefit
(3) Supporting setting up of fast chargers in high-density demand clusters where cabs typically "wait" e.g. railway stations, airports, long-distance bus depots etc.

Well, that's my $0.02

Last edited by Contrapunto : 16th June 2024 at 10:18.
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Old 16th June 2024, 16:37   #18
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Re: May 2024 | Electric Vehicle Sales Figures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Contrapunto View Post
The reason is simple, it adds to the cost of bill-of-materials and manufacturers aren't sure the customers will pay extra for it. Its not just the cost of the faster charger in the car.
We are referring to the DCFC rates, not the OBC rates. Slow charging is available upto 7kW on most EV models albeit for slightly extra money (the OBC already supports 7kW, you may opt to buy third party charger instead of OEM, and save some money there)

It is the OBC which affects upfront cost of vehicle the most, especially if it Is bidirectional (V2V/L) and even more if it is V2G.

What affects the fast charging rate is the cell and that depends on manufacturer. Only Tata is using GotionGX LFP right now. It is not even that only LFP is an issue, CATL LFP in ZS EV charges at 75kW AFAIK. CATL Shenxing LFP supports 4C while Tata only supports 0.7C. (ZS uses different CATL LFP, not shenxing)

Ideally, there is not much price difference in opting for a faster charging cell for the battery itself. After all, MG is able to profitably (I hope?) sell a 18.98L EV with 50kWh CATL LFP.

The cheapest nexon is 14.5L with 30kWh GotionGX LFP. 4.5L for extra 20kWh battery with much faster charging (in addition to being larger, faster, and more or less similar if not better features)

Quote:
You need more sophisticated sensors and thermal management (it gets hotter, faster), the coolant and the coolant circulation system needs to be more sophisticated, operate at higher pressure for faster circulation and heat evacuation and be more fail-safe.
Yes, the peripherals may impact pricing more than battery itself. Thatís who Citroen is selling Air cooled LFP from SVolt. The slow DCFC rates on eC3 is result of air cooling. The lower warranty too, to some extent (125K km vs 160k km)

Quote:
Policy support can help by :
(1) giving "direction" that this 100 Kw + chargers will soon be mandatory , say in two years time. That gives both direction and certainty to OEMs to start building it into their products
Govt canít directly mandate that all DCFCs must be 100kW. They can however, say that to qualify for charger installation benefits and subsidies, the charger must be minimum 100kW to reap subsidy under fast charging, anything under that will either not be subsidised or will be subsidised under slow charging

Say, ₹5,000/kW subsidy for slow chargers (60kW dual gun will get ₹3L subsidy) but much higher subsidy for fast chargers, say 15% of charger cost for all DCFC higher than 100kW + ₹7,500/kW over 100kW

For example 120kW dual gun, thatís ₹3L discount on the ₹20L cost, + another ₹1.5L from the 7500 slab, so total ₹4.5L discount

Only if you put a 90kW DCFC then you will you get 4.5L discount. Which frankly isnít all that different from 100kW.

Another point the govt can use to enforce faster charger, is by putting a price cap on the ₹/kWh they can charge for a certain power output charger

Say the cap of price is 25% of the kW rate for <100kW chargers, and for >100kW, bill charging based on time instead of unit, so that has double effect of discouraging low DCFC rated evís from plugging into high output DCFC, as well as incentivises charging only till 80%, and putting faster chargers.

Say put price cap of (power) * (minutes)/60

A 60kW charger cannot charge more than ₹15/kWh, and so on.

But >100kWh can charge be enforced on time basis, ie 72kWh Ioniq 5 spending 18min for 20% to 80% on 350kW charger will pay ₹ (350*18/6) = 1050.

The 360kW charger outside of vellore already bills ₹21/kWh + tax so thatís ~₹900 for charging from 20-80%.

If a seal plugs into 120kW charger (110kW charging), it will spend 38min ie ~₹750. If same car goes to 350kW charger, it will pay 2200.

This way people will be educated too.

Quote:
(3) Supporting setting up of fast chargers in high-density demand clusters where cabs typically "wait" e.g. railway stations, airports, long-distance bus depots etc.
I would rather that the govt gives the same money to good CPOs like Zeon, ChargeZone, Statiq and others instead of installing chargers themselves. Very few of the EESL and DISCOM operated chargers work. BESCOM is one of the better govt run chargers from what I hear.

Still, private players are doing far better job than govt is, so I would prefer to keep it that way going forward.
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Old 17th June 2024, 14:56   #19
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Re: May 2024 | Electric Vehicle Sales Figures

Quote:
Originally Posted by Contrapunto View Post
I won't blame Tatas. Others have not done it as well.
Above post has already answered the cost and technical aspects.

I agree that thanks to Tata EVs a good charging network is developing, but as the charging network evolves, most will be able to supply 60 to 120 KW. But the Tata EVs will be chocking them with slow <30KW charging for a long time. So Tata has given in one hand and handicapped with the other.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shresth_EV View Post
What affects the fast charging rate is the cell and that depends on manufacturer. Only Tata is using GotionGX LFP right now. It is not even that only LFP is an issue, CATL LFP in ZS EV charges at 75kW AFAIK. CATL Shenxing LFP supports 4C while Tata only supports 0.7C. (ZS uses different CATL LFP, not shenxing)

Ideally, there is not much price difference in opting for a faster charging cell for the battery itself. After all, MG is able to profitably (I hope?) sell a 18.98L EV with 50kWh CATL LFP.

Even the Gotion cells are 1C (I had posted their spec sheet previously), so either there is some other limiting factor or Tata is being conservative. If its the later, I hope they can upgrade in future. Even a marginal increase from 30 KW to 40 KW, would be helpful.
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Old 1st July 2024, 13:09   #20
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Re: May 2024 | Electric Vehicle Sales Figures

June 2024:

EV sales drop 14% to 106,081 units in June signaling a downward trend going forward.

EV sales in June 2024 fell by more than 14 per cent to 106,081 units, compared to 123,704 units sold in May.

Quote:
Sales of electric vehicles (EVs) in India saw a sharp 14 per cent decline in the month of June against May’s figure, with experts suggesting that it could be due to a combination of factors such as changes in government policies and people’s increasing interest towards hybrid vehicles
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Old 12th July 2024, 01:44   #21
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Re: May 2024 | Electric Vehicle Sales Figures

Does anyone know the model breakdown of Tata EV sales? Punch vs Nexon vs ?? I am particularly interested in knowing sales numbers of the Punch EV. I am planning on getting one by the end of the year for my father, with the hope that many of the bugs will have been ironed out by EOY.
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