[standardherald]

IMO hybrids are the intermediate between ICE and the zero emissions tech of the future whether it’s pure electric or something else.

Electric without a charging network and spotty power supply is not feasible in large parts of India. Being an ev owner myself, the EV is just used for short trips. Cheap plugin hybrids would be a boon for single car households and would be in Pure EV mode in the city. On long drives they will fall back on ice but still be more efficient. So govt should at least consider plugin hybrids for the same benefits as pure evs.

[84.monsoon]

EV sales in Delhi have fallen precipitously after road tax waiver on EVs was withdrawn on August 31st. Other states have also started to phase out their road tax waivers. Karnataka started charging road tax on EVs recently.



Lately, EVs have been surviving on the hospital bed on two drips. One is the massive GST rate concession (5% instead of 48% for most ICE vehicles). Other is the State road tax waiver, which shaves off 15-20% off the on-road price

So let us say an EV (such as the upcoming XUV.E9) and an adjacent-segment strong hybrid vehicle, such as the Innova HyCross, both start at an ex-factory price of 20 lakhs. Insurance, extended warranty costs etc. are excluded from calculations for simplicity.

1. The on-road.price of the EV will be 21 lakhs (just 5% GST and no road tax in most states).
2. The strong hybrid will have an on-road price of: 20 lakhs + 48% GST + 20% road tax = 35.52 lakhs

So the difference between the EV and Strong hybrid car that costs the same to manufacture is close to 15 lakhs. The price that has to be paid by the customer to get the strong hybrid is 70% more. This is an atrocious penalty for buying a strong hybrid.

Now in the first case, M&M is not going to sell the XUV.E9 for 21 lacs. It knows that it can at least price the EV on par with the HyCross, so they will price it in such a way that it costs 35 lakhs on-road and keep 14 lacs as their profit. So, by offering excessive incentives to EVs, we are only going to line the manufacturers' pockets with super-normal profits.

No wonder Tata Motors is lobbying so hard against any concessions for strong hybrids, and also lobbying hard to keep road tax waivers in place. EVs like Nexon are huge cash cows and profit machines for them, and they want to keep the status quo on taxation for as long as possible, to line their pockets with a dream-run of profits. As road tax concessions are withdrawn, they will have to sacrifice a share of their fat profits, and bring ex-showrrom prices down, to keep the on-road price of EV on par with the current level, so as not to sacrifice volumes.

Even with two drip feeds, EV sales have in slumping. As road tax waiver is withdrawn by more and more states, survival becomes even more precarious for EVs as one of the drip feeds is shut off.

Don't get me wrong - I do want the Indian EV industry to succeed and prosper, but this should happen at the right time, when battery technology and infrastructure have matured, and such huge economic distortion from taxation is not required to support the success of EVs. And Strong Hybrids should be given a fair tax incentive, to reflect the 40% mileage improvement and emission reduction they bring over their equivalent ICE counterparts.

[Pennant1970]

We welcomed the opening of markets; the end of license raj; liberalisation - whatever you want to call it. The loosening of government control on the markets and people's choice have done wonders.

What we see now is the centralisation of market control and the driving of customers to some strong, preferred companies. If we let the buyer decide, there should be an automatic rebalancing of the markets.

We assume that the elected representatives of the people and the entrenched bureaucracy know better than the millions of people who they government. If not, why should there be this acceptance of control over our lives and choices?

To me, EV tech just kicks the can down the road, someone will have to pick it up later - probably the same people who did the initial kicking. Where is the solution for the unimaginable waste that will ensure from the batteries? Where is the alternative for some of the rarer elements needed to make the tech work? When nations like China,USA or Russia end up controlling resources the rest of the world depends on, it will be worse than when the Gulf states became rich with oil money.

The truth is, we are back in a state-controlled economy - we are yet to see that. The pinch will com when the middle class again feel the pressure, like we saw in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

And we go around again...

[Motorfanatic1]

While center may have a policy, states too can come-up with different incentives to boost the sales of hybrid cars. For example, Uttar Pradesh Government in June 24 announced a 100% waiver of Registration Fees for Hybrid Cars.

The State Government should promote tax incentivization on Hybrid Cars based on the last mile readiness and availability of the EV charging facility, and subsequently faze out the incentives once there is adept readiness in EV infrastructure.

[nidhikapoor]

Originally Posted by nandrive

If a person or a government believes a commodity/substance is bad for their own/children/citizens consumption but makes money by selling it to others and uses that money for welfare of their children/citizens is not only a hypocrite but also a criminal. We all know who else operate in the similar manner.

Each country has its own challenges and opportunities. Just because it has worked in one place does not mean it will work everywhere.

For example, in Australia, last month Toyota Rav4 hybrid alone outsold all the EV sales put together. We do not have any special tariffs on Chinese Evs, so there are many budget EV options available here. Base trim Tesla model Y is cheaper than mid spec Rav4 hybrid and there are incentives to buy EV's. In spite of all these and negative press against Hybrids, Australian consumer chose Hybrids over EVs. Achieving price parity with hybrids is not enough for Evs if we believe in consumer behavior. I am not against EVs, I will definitely buy them one day, but not in next 5 years.

Well, if you call that criminal, we, as in India should just stop using any fossil fuel right? Poor logic. The world still needs fossil fuels, and any country doing what they can to increase their renewable sources is doing good for the environment. If every country does the same then Norway will not have a market. Simple.

Your aus figures are also misleading. Dont take the totals. See the percentage at which EV sales are increasing every year in Aus, IN SPITE of the Aussies loving their Utes. EVs almost doubling every year.

Also see this. EVs already 25% of ICE sales [25,500/236,000].

If you live in Aus and have off street parking with access to charging, then I'm seriously curious as to why you wouldn't buy an EV now?

Originally Posted by Pennant1970

We welcomed the opening of markets; the end of license raj; liberalisation - whatever you want to call it. The loosening of government control on the markets and people's choice have done wonders.

What we see now is the centralisation of market control and the driving of customers to some strong, preferred companies. If we let the buyer decide, there should be an automatic rebalancing of the markets.

We assume that the elected representatives of the people and the entrenched bureaucracy know better than the millions of people who they government. If not, why should there be this acceptance of control over our lives and choices?

To me, EV tech just kicks the can down the road, someone will have to pick it up later - probably the same people who did the initial kicking. Where is the solution for the unimaginable waste that will ensure from the batteries? Where is the alternative for some of the rarer elements needed to make the tech work? When nations like China,USA or Russia end up controlling resources the rest of the world depends on, it will be worse than when the Gulf states became rich with oil money.

The truth is, we are back in a state-controlled economy - we are yet to see that. The pinch will com when the middle class again feel the pressure, like we saw in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

And we go around again...

Battery waste and the mining issues is a myth. All recyclable. Also refining crude also needs rare elements and those are lost and not recyled.

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[KeepItSimple]

Hybrid technology is very broad. OEMs have misused the tax benefits.

The benefit of a pure electric drive train vs an ice drive train with electric boost are are cleaner environment with reduced air pollution. Health benefits are manifold.

The way forward would be the pure electric drive with a small ice engine for battery charging is a work in progress for many OEMs.

I guess that IC engine tax is here to stay.

The government has opened a loophole in UP with reduced tax on hybrids.

[Pennant1970]

You have your opinions - I have mine. And unless you are one of those in the decision making phalanx, mine is as valid as yours. (BTW, the recycling argument is tenuous at best - as far as I can see. I did some research so that I could maybe atart up a battery recycling project. Now, the approach is - leave it all to China, they know what to do. Nice people to trust, as we know.)

The truth is, I am less bothered about putative and unproven gains for tomorrow than I am about what ordinary people -especially in my case, Indians - need. And we are still at a stage where ICE/ICE-adjacent vehicles are the solution.

We can't reserve private transport to the elite and the wealthy. At the moment, if the present policy positions are held as immutable, we will come to a place (within a decade) where a good majority cannot afford any powered personal transportation and those who can, will be forced to scrap perfectly serviceable vehicles and buy new ones. The only benefit is to the automakers. And perhaps those who want less traffic on the ever-better roads.

Public transportation is not going to catch up to fulfill all needs of such a population as ours. Or maybe the favoured companies have their own solutions for that, thus driving the populace evermore into the clutches of a few corporate overlords?

I don't know - but my opinion is that the environment of the future is less important than the lives of today's humanity. The future will adapt - humans always have. And the planet will adjust - we are just a blip in the Earth's story. We need to look at our needs NOW.

Peace...

[the.dogfather]

I think hybrids need to be further categorized and then tax rates should be given as per that. As the present definition of hybrids are quite vague, it gives a lot of scope for OEMs to take advantage. We have seen this with the Bolero being a 4m car, the ground clearance rule being bypassed using a temporary system in Mahindra and of-course the Maruti saga where the mild hybrid system was used to get better tax rates.

When we stand at a transition stage between ICE and Electrics, getting good hybrid is quite important. Plug in hybrids for example, give you best of both, where for most of your city use the car can run on electric mode, and you aren't worried about being stranded due to unavailability of chargers when going to remote places. The battery sizes are smaller and would need daily charging, but it works for most regular usage scenarios. I feel it does not make sense for all to cars with are full EVs with large battery packs. The carbon foot print also would be lower, and you can get the cost as well as carbon benefit of using the EV mode in your daily commute.
The Volvo XC90 Plug-in Hybrid for example has a 34 mile EV range, which would be sufficient for daily use for a lot of people. More focus is needed on hybrids, while the EV infra gets built.

[Pennant1970]

Originally Posted by Pennant1970

We assume that the elected representatives of the people and the entrenched bureaucracy know better than the millions of people who they government. If not, why should there be this acceptance of control over our lives and choices?~

I am sorry - my time for editing the above is past. I said "who they government" - it should read "who they govern".

[My mobile apparently thinks it knows better English than I!]

[GeeTee TSI]

GOI has predictably kept the tax rates high on its cash cows (ICE and Hybrid). The push for biofuels is also significant which gives a chance to reduce the import bill of crude (whilst potentially increasing corn?)

Milking the revenue expected from a very buoyant auto industry without shaking the tree seems to be the approach rather than a decisive step to change buying behaviour (to EVs)

[krrisdrive]

Originally Posted by nidhikapoor

Not when the new tech cleans up our air. DO you have any idea how many preventable deaths pollution causes?

Isn't government mandates BSxx norms every few years to mitigate this issue? On top of additional expenses for R&D, Lab to Floor rollout and training service personnel to comply with these norms, slap them(ICE) with 48% GST (against 5% for EVs)!! If this is not bad policy, I don't know what it is.

[bulletfuel]

I had booked a BYD Seal for Oct delivery. This seriously hampers my plan. Mockery of the consumer.

[samm]

With the current state of affairs, and even 5-10 years later, without a major disruption happening in charging infrastructure, EVs can't be used for long distance travel, without plenty of buffer time. Suitable for city use, or as a second car for who can afford both - a second car, and that too an EV. For city taxis, BEV is definitely a good option.

I see only hybrid or even better, plugin hybrid as the only solution to reduce emissions ( to whatever extent possible), and reduce dependency on fossil fuel for at least 10 years from now. Plug-in hybrid will be the most ideal for me.

As a side note, I love the way BEVs drive, and if I can get a car with drives 1000km with AC ON on a single charge, I will surely consider.

[nandrive]

Originally Posted by nidhikapoor

Well, if you call that criminal, we, as in India should just stop using any fossil fuel right?

I never said anything about stopping fossil fuels, I just said its hypocritical to claim holier than thou when someone tries to virtue signal without following what they preach.

Originally Posted by nidhikapoor

Poor logic.

Well, that's your opinion and opinions are subjective, one cannot prove/disprove that. I don't try to change someone's opinion about me.

Originally Posted by nidhikapoor

Your aus figures are also misleading. Dont take the totals. See the percentage at which EV sales are increasing every year in Aus, IN SPITE of the Aussies loving their Utes. EVs almost doubling every year.

Please also check the growth of Hybrids which they achieved based on their merit v/s taxpayer funded growth of Evs over the years, the article I posted in my original post talks about the rate of growth.

I gave the example of hybrids, specifically Rav4 hybrid, it has nothing to do with Utes, the comparison here is not about ICE vs EV, we are talking about Evs vs Hybrids. Utes are purchased predominantly by farmers and tradies to sustain their livelihood, they are not typical commuter vehicles.

Originally Posted by nidhikapoor

Also see this. EVs already 25% of ICE sales [25,500/236,000].

Well I may have poor logic, but objectively I can claim that I have superior mathematical skills.

[krrisdrive]

Originally Posted by GeeTee TSI

Milking the revenue expected from a very buoyant auto industry without shaking the tree seems to be the approach rather than a decisive step to change buying behaviour (to EVs)

Yup. Currently, ICE Car ecosystem(makers and buyers) is the equivalent of 30% Income taxed individual tax payer. Milk them till bleed, nobody cares!