TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc.

Cyrus_the_virus · 12th August 2014, 15:36

Point 1 - There is a lot of hot air being created by Telcos both in India and US. They claim that service providers are "piggybacking" on existing network as if the service providers are not paying for the network usage. These false claims that the service providers are running free on the network is sheer absurdity and pathetically ignorant claim to fool the general public.

The service providers pays millions of dollars to the providers to get a connection to the internet. It is utter stupidity that the service providers are supposed to pay all the telcos in the world because their services are being used by customers of those Telcos. A telco's purpose of existence in the data network is simple, provider the customers access to the broader internet. By doing so, they do not have a right to claim that they own the internet and any service of the internet is supposed to pay them. The telco has no other business other than provide the customer that connection. It has no business knowing which company makes how much money on the internet because they don't own the internet.

If however they claim that their network is being overloaded, then what they have to do is ask money for interconnection charges from which ever other telco the excessive data is flowing from and this upstream will inturn come down to the actual provider who gets millions of dollars from the service provider and they can take a share of that.

Point 2 - The Telcos want to charge for "revenue loss" from SMS as if it is their God given right to get money from SMS and that everyone who uses any other forms of communication should give money to Telcos because Humans are only supposed to use SMS to communicate

Point 3 - The Telcos claim that customers are using too much data because they are now using whatsapp etc which inturn is causing them revenue loss. Duh! We are paying you for what we use! Besides Telcos make millions of rupees in profit from these very so called "Affordable" internet packs.

I honestly feel the Telcos are the worst of the capitalist world. They make 100s of crores of Rupees in profit and cry that they are making loss(in reality loss compared to previous year) and asks for government assistance when the Airline industry is in dire straights and actually making a loss and yet running without failure. If the network quality of the providers were to be equated with the Airlines industry, we would have flights dropping out of the sky just like the "Network drops" we have.

Combining the above points, it is abundantly clear that the Telcos are crying wolf and want nothing but a share of the revenue of services they didn't care to invent and demands as if it is their birth right to get money for SMS revenue loss. We all know from the recent expose's in the US that Telcos sit on millions of dollars instead of upgrading their network to create a false sense that service providers like Netflix etc are eating up the bandwidth so that they can demand money from them when in reality they are just using this loophole to escape from using their own money to upgrade their network to stay in line with the 21st Century.

Digital communication is the backbone of years to come and the growth of users are only going to be exponential. If the Telcos think that their 18th Century networks are enough to sustain the growth of the many years to come and that they have a right to demand money from everyone just because they live under the ignoramus dome, then someone needs to give them a dose of reality. Perform or Perish!

blr · 13th August 2014, 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by a4anurag

The network provider looses out on the SMS subscription that we all would have taken if WhatsApp etc wasn't there.

Hence they are against WhatsApp also.

Anurag.

You assume the 'network provider' to be an SMS operator as well. What if that is not the case and the 'network provider' is only in the business of transporting your data; just like any courier company (FedEx, UPS, DHL, etc) transporting your goods. Imagine if they all star charging you not only for a certain class of service, but also based on what you actually send through them. Worse still, imagine the post office start charging you for every parcel you send through DHL just because the post office is 'losing' business!

Quote:

Originally Posted by srishiva

In the U.S, carriers are doing away with unlimited data. For the billions they invest, they cant afford someone else coming in and pulling away their revenue. There needs to be middle ground else we will not see the huge investments by carriers.

The answer to that is to move with technology; don't hang on to obsolete ones and try to pull others back too!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Higgs_Boson_i

I think a more practical view needs to be seen. If apps like WA, etc piggy back on existing telecom infrastructure they need to pay some amount to the companies who are providing the infrastructure and also the govt, which is enabling the companies to set up the infrastructure in the first place.

Secondly, no tech giant can afford to take on the govt of any country let alone India.

Am I not already paying to "piggy back on existing telecom infrastructure" when I pay for the data usage per the Telco's current tariff? Well, that is assuming my tariff is not subsidized by any other means and that is the case in India anyway.

phamilyman · 13th August 2014, 07:36

The problem is the competitive environment has led to data often being sold at / below cost. Adding insult to injury is that data is eroding their traditional VAS / call market (while TRAI came down on their erstwhile heavy-handed VAS billing practices a few years back).

Now the telcos thought process is - we don't have the guts to actually hike rates in line with bandwidth costs (which is what they should do).

Because in the MNP era, the moment ONE operator raises data tariffs, a huge chunk of people will move to the next one. With 100+ mn customer base, Airtel and Vodafone and maybe Idea/Reliance etc can ill-afford that - it creates spaces for smaller guys like Aircel / MTS / Docomo etc (don't know the latest numbers, so due apologies to any brand fanboys).

So they come up with this brilliant idea which levels the playing field by asking TRAI to charge the services. Indirectly they get paid for the data they are providing, but in this approach, they don't run the risk of losing any customers. Because if TRAI makes these services payable, then everyone hates on TRAI but no one switches networks.

Perfect win-win solution for them.

Now the point is - are we going to just vent on TBHP or should we do something about it? Is there a change.org signature campaign we can sign? How do we tell TRAI in a loud united voice (and ask the interwebs to join in) to lay off from this regressive idea?!

Steeroid · 13th August 2014, 08:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by phamilyman

So they come up with this brilliant idea which levels the playing field by asking TRAI to charge the services.

Lol what wishful thinking - COAI asking TRAI for a favor, and TRAI obliging?

The same TRAI that created the current mess by allowing the backdoor entry of 'limited mobility' players at a fraction of the license fee that the government charged the existing GSM operators?

The same TRAI that is constantly at loggerheads with the industry and has been accused by everyone including the GSMA of disadvantaging paid licensees by colluding so openly with a certain business house?

TRAI is a regulator, and a very confused one at that - not the operator's pet dog.

Quote:

Originally Posted by phamilyman

Because in the MNP era, the moment ONE operator raises data tariffs, a huge chunk of people will move to the next one. With 100+ mn customer base, Airtel and Vodafone and maybe Idea/Reliance etc can ill-afford that - it creates spaces for smaller guys like Aircel / MTS / Docomo etc (don't know the latest numbers, so due apologies to any brand fanboys).

Exactly the reason why all these fairy-tale 'free' services will ultimately collapse. 10% of Whatsapp's active user base is in India - I would like to see them start charging (anything, including the rumored $1) for services when they have a large user-base in such extremely price-sensitive markets where customers won't think twice before jumping ship.

This is exactly why this business model will not work. WhatsApp may be FaceBook's gamble to match Google for access to customer data, but ultimately someone's going to ask questions about all that money invested.

maverick.munish · 13th August 2014, 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steeroid

What if I built/bought a car and you got to drive it around for free, and even create a customer base of people who share the ride with you?

Thats what OTT (Over-The-Top) services do today - the telecom operator provides the bandwidth and capacity for IP, paying thousands of crores in spectrum charges and then a few thousand more to set up and upgrade the network to carry all that traffic.

Hey Steeriod

I think you missed the point wherein you pay a fixed line rental or pre paid amount top ups for accessing Internet via your service providers network.

now if you wish to be double charged for something you have already paid a price for then all i Can say is that you might find yourself fighting a losing battle on behalf of the telecom companies.

As regards your building a car, you won't be foolish enough to let go off the car for free. Would you ??
Similarly, the telco's charge you money for the data network services.

vijaycool · 13th August 2014, 19:01

There is a reason why 1 Gb 3G data cost Rs 249 and 20GB FUP landline cost only 999 + taxes. The price is already high and this with cover the license fee , spectrum charges blah blah. The only reason why telcos are stating they are piggybacking their service because all the messenger services using Mobile number as unique identity. It takes the number as ID just like telephone operations. If the messenger service somehow take away the mobile number and use some form of unique identity then they cant oppose like yahoo chat, gtalk etc.

sa_kiran · 19th August 2014, 14:45

Trai rejects telcos' proposal to charge fee on popular services like WhatsApp, Viber and Skype - http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/40383424.cms

Quote:

NEW DELHI: Users of WhatsApp, Viber, Skype and other apps won't have to shell out any extra charges as the telecom regulator has decided against a proposal of carriers to make companies that offer these popular services share part of their revenue with them or the government.

Read more at:
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...campaign=cppst

motorguy · 19th August 2014, 16:28

Have read some comments on whatsapp not being free after first year. Very true.

However, I also know some people (names not to be mentioned!) who have changed a particular flag in their Android device and enabled their
whatsapp to continue to be free! Not sure if this hole is plugged now, but all the same it's interesting.

Whenever the govt or a company tries to pull a fast one on the consumer, there will always be people who will find aa way to bypass and find a loophole.

Just for the record - I dont support pirated stuff - all my software (and Whatsapp of course) is paid for and legal.

Dry Ice · 19th August 2014, 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by motorguy

Have read some comments on whatsapp not being free after first year. Very true.

However, I also know some people (names not to be mentioned!) who have changed a particular flag in their Android device and enabled their
whatsapp to continue to be free! Not sure if this hole is plugged now, but all the same it's interesting.

Whenever the govt or a company tries to pull a fast one on the consumer, there will always be people who will find aa way to bypass and find a loophole.

Just for the record - I dont support pirated stuff - all my software (and Whatsapp of course) is paid for and legal.

I don't know a single person who has paid for his whatsapp subscription yet. It's been free for everyone without any sort of modding. Close to the service expiry date, they get a message that the free period has been extended for another year.

Like someone mentioned here earlier, the problem with such apps is that there are loads of alternatives. Hike/WeChat/Viber, even Skype, fb messenger, hangouts etc are completely free. So the moment they start charging everyone - people will sure adopt the other free alternatives.

prajwalkashyap · 19th August 2014, 17:14

Looks like TRAI has decided against the proposal to charge users for using messenger apps like Whatsapp, Viber, Skype, etc.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/t...w/40393220.cms

P

blr · 24th August 2014, 02:22

Glad to know that good sense prevailed in the end!

There would be no end to it if TRAI were to give in to each of the demands of these people.

vinair · 21st September 2015, 18:40

If our Govt has its way, each one of us may have to start retaining messages for a period of 90 days and deleting messages (with the retention period) could be made illegal!!

These are some of the new Govt Proposal to all ISPs to regulate WatsApp usage citing security reasons!

Read Article - http://gadgets.ndtv.com/internet/fea...-lateststories

Wildy · 21st September 2015, 19:05

IMO, That's very bad idea. So, If an unknown moron (who's not on your list) may send you an offensive message/video for you, You still have to keep it for 90days.

I delete my messages almost everyday to keep the space free and few messages almost immediately, since some of them are not good for kids.

BTW, Gujarat Govt. Banned Mobile Internet lately.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/49024649.cms

Where are we leading?

D C · 21st September 2015, 20:01

That won't not be necessary as WhatsApp and similar services will agree with the government and give them necessary access to run surveillance programs.

I remember a similar scenario with Blackberry earlier, quoted below for reference:

Quote:

After nearly being banned in India in 2010, BlackBerry has finally reached an agreement with the Indian government regarding surveillance in the name of security. According to a leaked document from the country's Department of Telecommunications that was obtained by The Times of India, it'll soon be possible for the government to see who you're emailing, who you're BBMing, the read-states of your BBM messages and even which websites you're visiting (hello!). An unnamed BlackBerry spokesperson is emphasizing that this is all legal, adding that those who use BlackBerry Enterprise Server will not be monitored -- which makes for an eyebrow raising sales pitch. There's no official date as to when this system turns on, but the report says the required equipment is "ready for use."

Source: Engadget.com

drsingh · 21st September 2015, 21:58

http://cis-india.org/internet-govern...to-worry-about

We already have a pretty comprehensive surveillance infrastructure underway in India. I'm not surprised people don't know more about it.

12th August 2014, 15:36	#76
Cyrus_the_virus BHPian Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Hyderabad Posts: 161 Thanked: 166 Times	Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc. Point 1 - There is a lot of hot air being created by Telcos both in India and US. They claim that service providers are "piggybacking" on existing network as if the service providers are not paying for the network usage. These false claims that the service providers are running free on the network is sheer absurdity and pathetically ignorant claim to fool the general public. The service providers pays millions of dollars to the providers to get a connection to the internet. It is utter stupidity that the service providers are supposed to pay all the telcos in the world because their services are being used by customers of those Telcos. A telco's purpose of existence in the data network is simple, provider the customers access to the broader internet. By doing so, they do not have a right to claim that they own the internet and any service of the internet is supposed to pay them. The telco has no other business other than provide the customer that connection. It has no business knowing which company makes how much money on the internet because they don't own the internet. If however they claim that their network is being overloaded, then what they have to do is ask money for interconnection charges from which ever other telco the excessive data is flowing from and this upstream will inturn come down to the actual provider who gets millions of dollars from the service provider and they can take a share of that. Point 2 - The Telcos want to charge for "revenue loss" from SMS as if it is their God given right to get money from SMS and that everyone who uses any other forms of communication should give money to Telcos because Humans are only supposed to use SMS to communicate Point 3 - The Telcos claim that customers are using too much data because they are now using whatsapp etc which inturn is causing them revenue loss. Duh! We are paying you for what we use! Besides Telcos make millions of rupees in profit from these very so called "Affordable" internet packs. I honestly feel the Telcos are the worst of the capitalist world. They make 100s of crores of Rupees in profit and cry that they are making loss(in reality loss compared to previous year) and asks for government assistance when the Airline industry is in dire straights and actually making a loss and yet running without failure. If the network quality of the providers were to be equated with the Airlines industry, we would have flights dropping out of the sky just like the "Network drops" we have. Combining the above points, it is abundantly clear that the Telcos are crying wolf and want nothing but a share of the revenue of services they didn't care to invent and demands as if it is their birth right to get money for SMS revenue loss. We all know from the recent expose's in the US that Telcos sit on millions of dollars instead of upgrading their network to create a false sense that service providers like Netflix etc are eating up the bandwidth so that they can demand money from them when in reality they are just using this loophole to escape from using their own money to upgrade their network to stay in line with the 21st Century. Digital communication is the backbone of years to come and the growth of users are only going to be exponential. If the Telcos think that their 18th Century networks are enough to sustain the growth of the many years to come and that they have a right to demand money from everyone just because they live under the ignoramus dome, then someone needs to give them a dose of reality. Perform or Perish! Last edited by Cyrus_the_virus : 12th August 2014 at 15:39.
	() Thanks

13th August 2014, 07:36	#78
phamilyman Senior - BHPian Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Gurgaon Posts: 5,968 Thanked: 4,641 Times	Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc. The problem is the competitive environment has led to data often being sold at / below cost. Adding insult to injury is that data is eroding their traditional VAS / call market (while TRAI came down on their erstwhile heavy-handed VAS billing practices a few years back). Now the telcos thought process is - we don't have the guts to actually hike rates in line with bandwidth costs (which is what they should do). Because in the MNP era, the moment ONE operator raises data tariffs, a huge chunk of people will move to the next one. With 100+ mn customer base, Airtel and Vodafone and maybe Idea/Reliance etc can ill-afford that - it creates spaces for smaller guys like Aircel / MTS / Docomo etc (don't know the latest numbers, so due apologies to any brand fanboys). So they come up with this brilliant idea which levels the playing field by asking TRAI to charge the services. Indirectly they get paid for the data they are providing, but in this approach, they don't run the risk of losing any customers. Because if TRAI makes these services payable, then everyone hates on TRAI but no one switches networks. Perfect win-win solution for them. Now the point is - are we going to just vent on TBHP or should we do something about it? Is there a change.org signature campaign we can sign? How do we tell TRAI in a loud united voice (and ask the interwebs to join in) to lay off from this regressive idea?!
	() Thanks

13th August 2014, 19:01	#81
vijaycool BHPian Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: chennai Posts: 309 Thanked: 111 Times	Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc. There is a reason why 1 Gb 3G data cost Rs 249 and 20GB FUP landline cost only 999 + taxes. The price is already high and this with cover the license fee , spectrum charges blah blah. The only reason why telcos are stating they are piggybacking their service because all the messenger services using Mobile number as unique identity. It takes the number as ID just like telephone operations. If the messenger service somehow take away the mobile number and use some form of unique identity then they cant oppose like yahoo chat, gtalk etc.
	() Thanks

19th August 2014, 16:28	#83
motorguy BHPian Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Bangalore Rural Posts: 274 Thanked: 217 Times View My Garage	Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc. Have read some comments on whatsapp not being free after first year. Very true. However, I also know some people (names not to be mentioned!) who have changed a particular flag in their Android device and enabled their whatsapp to continue to be free! Not sure if this hole is plugged now, but all the same it's interesting. Whenever the govt or a company tries to pull a fast one on the consumer, there will always be people who will find aa way to bypass and find a loophole. Just for the record - I dont support pirated stuff - all my software (and Whatsapp of course) is paid for and legal.
	() Thanks

19th August 2014, 17:14	#85
prajwalkashyap BHPian Join Date: May 2008 Location: Melbourne Posts: 292 Thanked: 76 Times	Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc. Looks like TRAI has decided against the proposal to charge users for using messenger apps like Whatsapp, Viber, Skype, etc. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/t...w/40393220.cms P
	() Thanks

24th August 2014, 02:22	#86
blr BHPian Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Bangalore Posts: 74 Thanked: 26 Times	Re: TRAI wants to charge Whatsapp, Viber etc. Glad to know that good sense prevailed in the end! There would be no end to it if TRAI were to give in to each of the demands of these people.
	() Thanks

21st September 2015, 18:40	#87
vinair BHPian Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Bangalore Posts: 700 Thanked: 1,941 Times	Deleting WhatsApp messages could be illegal! If our Govt has its way, each one of us may have to start retaining messages for a period of 90 days and deleting messages (with the retention period) could be made illegal!! These are some of the new Govt Proposal to all ISPs to regulate WatsApp usage citing security reasons! Read Article - http://gadgets.ndtv.com/internet/fea...-lateststories
	() Thanks

21st September 2015, 19:05	#88
Wildy BHPian Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Wild Planet Posts: 232 Thanked: 983 Times View My Garage	Re: Deleting WatsApp messages could be illegal! IMO, That's very bad idea. So, If an unknown moron (who's not on your list) may send you an offensive message/video for you, You still have to keep it for 90days. I delete my messages almost everyday to keep the space free and few messages almost immediately, since some of them are not good for kids. BTW, Gujarat Govt. Banned Mobile Internet lately. http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/49024649.cms Where are we leading?
	() Thanks

21st September 2015, 21:58	#90
drsingh BHPian Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Ludhiana Posts: 776 Thanked: 707 Times	http://cis-india.org/internet-govern...to-worry-about We already have a pretty comprehensive surveillance infrastructure underway in India. I'm not surprised people don't know more about it.
	() Thanks