[sandeepmohan]

Originally Posted by vigneshkumar31

What's your setup? What kind of music do you spin?

Thanks for starting this thread and that is a nice personal music rig you have. I've noticed that in the last decade or so, the head phone based setup has come a long way, with several hundred options of gear available at every price point.

I have a 2016 Rega RP1 with the stock OM5E cartridge and a Garrard Zero 100 SB with a Shure cartridge. This is connected to a Trigon Audio phono amplifier, then to a Trigon Energy Integrated. Sound comes out of a Blumenhofer Genuin FS5 stand mount speaker.

Originally Posted by GTO

Out of curiosity, is there any advantage at all to records? Like, I know Moderator Navin still uses CDs for the absolute sound quality he desires. Is there any similar advantage to records? Or just nostalgia?

For the music connoisseur, it really is the sound more than anything else. The dynamic range of records far exceeds any other format of music. This is hard to prove from a data or statistics level as there are no bits n bytes like you do for digital music. Once you hear a well set up stereo playing a quality stamping of a record, no digital format can hold a candle to it, or, its going to take a seriously good digital audio rig to match or beat vinyl. I've yet to come across any digital format that surpassed a demonstration I had at The Listening Room in Electronic City, Bangalore. A German gentleman runs a little audio store at his house selling mostly German made equipment. Expensive stereo equipment from brands such as Scheu Analog, Einstein Audio, Trigon-Audio and Blumenhofer Acoustics, Manger Audio and a few other brands. I ended up buying some stereo equipment from this gentleman.

My first experience of listening to vinyl was the set up my folks had(They still have it). It was a vinyl only set up (No cassette deck, cd player or tuner) made up of basic Japanese gear from Akai. An Akai AE-53 speaker system, Akai AM-U110 Amplifier and a fully automatic Akai AP-D3 turntable. None of this gear is high end but it sounded so good.

Getting back to The Listening Room, I had once attended a group listening session. The gentlemen who runs the store put on Mussorgsky's - Pictures at an Exhibition album on record/vinyl. This was a record stamped at one of the worlds best stamping facilities. I was literally blown away by the sound and it still stands as the benchmark for the best sounding stereo I have heard to date. A CD of the same track was played right after the record (On a equally expensive CD player) and there was no comparison.

Having said the above, I have not managed to recreate the same experience with vinyl on my own set up. Partly down to equipment that is cheaper and I don't have the best record collection. Also; not everything sounds good on vinyl. For example, I would not bother listening to heavy metal on vinyl. Many vinyl format recordings sold today are just digital transfers and that defeats the purpose of playing vinyl. You'd rather just stream away. Off course, for some, its all about taking time with the music. Playing a record is a process, where you pay attention to the album print cover, taking care while taking our the vinyl from the sleeve, holding it in a certain way, visually inspecting it for dust, placing it on your player, cueing the tone arm slowly and then sit back and listen. There is no skipping tracks or remote control. You sit and read about the Artist, observe album art work, etc.

The format has made a huge come back today that it surpasses equipment quality that was sold almost 4 or 5 decades ago. They have not re invented the wheel. Only small changes have been made, new materials being tried and improved manufacturing for better quality control.

If I had all the time in the world and to just sit back and listen to music, vinyl will be my choice as a format and for quality audio reproduction. Nothing beats it.

Digital has made it too easy and for the most part, sounds great too, even streaming. That said, digital audio is complicated and confusing when it comes to the actual technology and formats that are available. Its interesting to read about how the technology works such as uncompressed audio but you really need a lesson in electronics to understand all the jargon they use and how that ends up making a difference in the way music sounds. FLAC, MQA (a con job in my view), etc, the endless list of digital audio processors and the various processes they employ to extract the best possible sound is difficult to make sense to the layman.

Originally Posted by greenhorn

Anybody with Linear Trackers here?

I don't have one but you've got one nice player there. That was Technics attempt to woo back the CD player customer, by providing some automation to the format.

[Entsurgeon]

Originally Posted by kar_thikr

My mother has a collection of old heavy slate-style records and she wants to play it as she used to on the old gramophone. ....
My question is can I use those players for the records that I have?
or should I go for something else?
If so which would be my fellow BHPians suggest for a beginner user ?

Thosr heavy slate type records are made of shellac. Its brittle and may break if they fall/ kept under a heavy load so be very careful handling them.
Further, they play at 78 rpm. After the edison cylinders, they were the first kind of records manufactured and sold in large scale. Used to have just one song per side.
To play them, you can get a vintage non electronic( mechanical, spring loaded, hand winding) gramophone. Or if you want a electronic player with amp, you would be looking at a player with 78 rpm capability. At times they require a dedicated cartridge.
I d suggest you contact any vinyl afficianado in your city and see if they have any player with them. They may help you with sourcing one. Kottayam does have a few good vinyl collections and probably a great privately owned gramophone record museum also. You can google or search for members list on hifivision which is a forum for indian audiophiles. Many a bhpians could be found there. See who is from kottayam in member search or go to phono turntables subforum and check forpeople who post there and who has a kottayam location.
My friend is selling a garrard 78 rpm player with norge amp but shipping from indore isnt a good idea imho.
Lastly do update us on what did you end up getting.

Originally Posted by deathwalkr

Sir, you can't leave a comment like that and not post pics!

Watch out and give me a little time.

[navin]

Originally Posted by GTO

Out of curiosity, is there any advantage at all to records? Like, I know Moderator Navin still uses CDs for the absolute sound quality he desires. Is there any similar advantage to records? Or just nostalgia?

Lets put it this way.

A well maintained record (180gm vinyl) that has few warps and static can sound better than a CD.

Let me qualify "can". Assuing the are both from the same "master", a very good turbtale can sound better than an equally priced CD player after a certain budget (say $500 or so). Cheap record players will damage records leave alone produce good sound.

On the flip side while CDs are not indestructible they are harder than records. The require less space for storage and are immune from static and warping.

So why do records sound better so much more often? Well because they are usually mastered "differently". Since records have limitations (dynamic range, bass, etc..) you need a better/smarter mastering engineer to master records than to master CDs. Sort of like you need to be a better driver to drive a manual than you need to be to drive an automatic.

More so for recent pressings a record company will hire a smarter engineer for mastering their records since this is for a niche high end market where the purveryours of these records will expect better quality and have better equipment.

Meanwhile the mastering of (Red Book) CDs are often left to some "intern" who may or may not care or know what they are doing.

Red Book Cds (aka CD-DA) are what we normally purchase. There are/were several other formats for CD-MO, CDROM, CD+, etc that we designated Orange, White, Blue, Purple, etc. See wiki link below for details.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Books

There is also SACD a format originally proposed by Sony and Philips in 1989 to combat piracy and with he goal to extract better sound from CDs. The challenge when CDs first came out was that no one really understood all the challenges as heard by "golden eared audiohiles". Philips soon dropped out so it was left to Sony to push this format. It barely took off because 99% of the world is not "golden eared" and of those who are even fewer are "golden heeled".

SACD used delta-sigma modulation or Pulse Density Modulation (see Wiki below) in an attempt to draw in an audience that was not happy with he sound of CDs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-density_modulation

Sony derived PDM from Adpative Dleta Modulation (see Wiki). However since they protected all copies and everything was so propietory SACD never really took off.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta_...0data%20stream.

So why are we getting into SACD/PDM etc... hold on...

After streaming killed CDs and MP3s became the format of the masses, audiophiles wanted something better. Companies like Tidal and Qobuz offered lossless options (aka FLAC). However lossless is still a form of compression and that too the source was still a Red Book CD (aka CD-DA). Enter DSD.

What is DSD. Well it is nothing more than PDM that Sony used and tried to propagate 20 odd years ago. see link below
https://dsd-guide.com/faq/what-diffe...d#.X3wUw1Lisb4

DSD files are open source hence artists can release them without paying any royalties and stream directly to their listeners. More so DSD files offer equal or better quality than SACD (provided the mastering engineer is not an bufoon).

DSD is the latest holy grail for digital audio.

Now companies like Tidal and Qobuz can offer lossless rips of red box CDs but the FLAC codec was not suitable for DSD.

When lossless codecs became all the rage there were several competing lossless codes vying to become the defacto standard. FLAC won because it was the fastest. That meant it was faster to rip a FLAC file than any of the other lossless codecs (ALAC, Monkey's Audio, WMA Lossless, OptimFrog, LA, LPAC, Shorten, TAK, WavPack etc.).

But the FLAC protocol would not permit PDM/DSD type files. Enter WavPack. WavPack can not only make lossless copy of CD-DA files but also DSD.

The Wavpack protocol permits lossless compression of DSD files. That means Tidal, Qobuz etc can stream lossless versions of DSD files to their customers.

This is the current state of the art of streaming. WavPack encoded DSD files.

So do LPs sound better than CDs or DSDs? It all depends on the mastering engineer, the hardware used, the phono premap, the DAC, ... you get the drift.

Why are LPs seeing a resurgence. In this fast paced world of streaming and MPS, some people want to move back to the romantic days of tenderly cleaning their LPs, carefully placing that shiny vinyl disc on a turntable platter and gingerly dropping the cartridge on the LP. Record companies are only happy to pbnlige by offering some great masters of old recordings, pressed on pristine 180 gm vinyl.

You many ask why do valve amps sound better than solid state? Well equally well designed amps will sound the same just ask Nelson Pass or Dan D'Agostino. It's just that some people prefer to see that warm glow of a valve and like a slight softness and "wollyness" to the sound. They may also use vintage speakers (whose woofers often have tighter compliance and tighter bass) to compensate.

Here is an interesting video on how these guys got started in audio.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCMPYiuUePk&t=1626s

[johy]

Any Rega owners here? I have a Brio and am planning to go the Vinyl route. So far it has been FLAC via a Kodi box and some Spotify for me.

I have read that the Rega has a decent phono stage. Or should I invest in a separate phono stage?

Plan is to get a Rega Planar 1.

Also, still looking for a nice pair of speakers. I use an old Sonodyne Sonus 2605, which is surprisingly decent after the Rega has been warmed up for an hour or so.

For speakers, I am thinking large bookshelves like Wharfedale Linton Heritage or floorstanders like the Rega RX3. Any other pointers are most welcome. Will some of the Fyne speakers pair well with the Brio?

Current setup

Fanless PC running Kodi/Spotify via Google Chromecast Audio>Schilt Modi 3 (DAC)>Rega Brio R>Sonodyne Sonus 2605

[vigneshkumar31]

Originally Posted by GTO

Out of curiosity, is there any advantage at all to records? Like, I know Moderator Navin still uses CDs for the absolute sound quality he desires. Is there any similar advantage to records? Or just nostalgia?

Many audiophiles and record collectors, including myself, would swear by the resolution and true to source nature that records are known for. In simple terms this is what goes on.

Its a pure analog signal that is beautifully pressed into the vinyl disc by cutting grooves, with the width and depth of the groove conveying the music, for example, bassy bits would use a deeper and wider groove and so on. When you buy this record and spin it on a revolving turntable, the tonearm and an attached needle gently tracks and vibrates following the grooves and the resultant 'hum' that the hollow tonearm picks up is conveyed into pure music out of a speaker. You see that there is no digital intervention, and a purely mechanical train from the jazz musician's trumpet or the cello's thrum conveyed into your ear just by vibrations.

This means there is no processing and cleaning it up and you should hear, how the recording artist, intended you to hear it, at least in theory.

When it comes to digital, obviously the analog wave is sampled into digital bits, and the rate of sampling will dictate the accuracy of reproduction and in effect the size of the songs. So mp3 would be real small and some lossless flac files run into heavy files. And so you lose some of the detail if the sampling is compromised for portable file sizes.

An oversimplistic explanation is below.


We must however admit that digital has come a long way and today, good high resolution, lossless source files can hold their own and at times even trump over vinyl.

Yet with all the convenience of technology and the progress in digital processing, a well pressed record, spinning on a solid turntable with a complementing set of stereo speakers is hard to beat not just for sound quality but more so for the experience.

With vinyl, you can't simply play the music in the background and ignore it. You have to spin the record, drop the needle and once the side is completed, you have to get up and lift the needle to flip the record. In our times of calling out Alexa to play music of choice, this may look like too much effort. But its exactly that ritual that vinyl endears you to. Its a tangible and connected form of listening where you have to take the time out, sit and immerse in this whole experience. And the record album art and inserts add to the theater of it all.

For info, a single LP album costs anywhere between 20-35 Euros on average. Is a 1 ft diameter and requires space to store. Clean, and safely store before and after play. Its an investment in the last physical forms of music you can tangibly own.

It's a cumbersome, and definitely more expensive way than to listen to the same song on a pc or a phone, but its immensely involving and rewarding.
Much like driving a Classic Jeep in 2020.

Originally Posted by kar_thikr

I'm a total noob to this scene, so this might be totally stupid, but My mother has a collection of old heavy slate-style records

These are shellacs. Contact vinylworld.in and he will sort you out.

[mankuthimma]

Great to see a thread on TTs and vinyls ! Thanks @vigneshkumar31 for starting this thread ! I just love the warm sounding nature of vinyl records and the charm of beautiful cover arts. Hopefully I can use this opportunity to revive my setup with the help of fellow bhpians!

Back in 2014-15, vinyl bug had bit me and had come up with a modest setup, actually extended my existing digital setup to play analog sound.

Here was my setup -

preowned Technics SL-D2 TT, stock cartridge replaced with Shure M44-7
NAD 325BEE stereo amplifier
Custom built Phono preamp - NAD had phono input but no inbuilt phono stage
Monitor Audio BR2 bookshelf speakers
Belden speaker wires with Canare plugs


For digital,
Harman Kardon CD player
WDTV media player for playing FLACs
Zero DAC in between WDTV media player and NAD

I had started collecting few vinyls, but the prices were already hitting roof at that time. Not sure how expensive it has got now.

My music taste had transitioned from old classic rock ( CCR any one? ) to jazz/blues ( Horace Silver ) to Indian classical ( Call of the Valley, MS Subbalakshmi). I had also collected few golden oldies from hindi, kannada and tamil movies. I loved the elaborate babying procedure - IPA wiping, anti static brushing the vinyls, aligning the cartridge etc.. before the music starts

Here are few of my prized possessions I dusted off today for taking this photo




Now the issues, hopefully i can get some help here -

1. Just like getting stranded on a nice holiday trip due to battery failure, my audiophile journey came to an abrupt end when the NAD became silent one day. It just stopped playing! If I remember, the orange light used to glow, but no sound. A suspected transformer issue, potential repair costs involved, lack of info on reliable NAD repair centers and host of other factors, the entire setup was packed up eventually. Any DIY checks I can do ? or do you know any good contact to get the NAD checked and repaired in Bangalore ?

2. TT needs some servicing since it is few years that I played it last. Also, Is it possible to upgrade the terminal wires ( L, R, Gnd ) to better quality ones? Again, any good place to get this done ?

[navin]

Originally Posted by johy

Any Rega owners here?
Plan is to get a Rega Planar 1.

For speakers, I am thinking large bookshelves like Wharfedale Linton Heritage or floorstanders like the Rega RX3. Any other pointers are most welcome. Will some of the Fyne speakers pair well with the Brio?

I would also consider Project Debut Carbon and the Sony PSHX500. What cartridge are you planning on?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuuOgT0XBK0

If you are considering the Littons also look at the Tannoy or the Klipsch Vintage/Heritage line.

Originally Posted by vigneshkumar31

This means there is no processing and cleaning it up and you should hear, how the recording artist, intended you to hear it, at least in theory.

For info, a single LP album costs anywhere between 20-35 Euros on average.
.

There is processing although there is no Analog to Digital and Digital to Analog conversion. RIAA equallisation is required.

Sometime around 1999, I got married. At hat time my audio system consisted of a Denon DP 62L, Denon Tonearm and DP 103 cartridge. The Phono stage was something I build mysle using LT1028 and OPA 627 opamps. That fed a home made preamp using 5532s which fed a 2 large home made stereo power amps each using 6 Hitachi metal can mosfets per channel and a 1200VA R-core transformer. My speakers were a pair of JBL 2245 (B460) bass bins, a MTM using Focal 8N515 and Model MDT33. I had over 1000 albums. I also had 2 Denon DRM 44HX tapedeskc and some other equipment (a DBX 3BX expander, etc.). All of this was cramped into a tiny apartment. So when I got married I actually gave all of this away. I don't even know the people I gave it to. I just had to make room fast. Imagine what 1000 LPs would be worth today!

Originally Posted by vigneshkumar31

Much like driving a Classic Jeep in 2020..

Cute, I see what you did there!

Originally Posted by mankuthimma

preowned Technics SL-D2 TT, stock cartridge replaced with Shure M44-7
NAD 325BEE stereo amplifier

1. do you know any good contact to get the NAD checked and repaired in Bangalore ?

Let me ask around if there is any decent, reliable service center in Bangalore. TBHP has several members and moderators in Bangalore.

[haisaikat]

Originally Posted by GTO

Is there any similar advantage to records? Or just nostalgia?

Originally Posted by sandeepmohan

The dynamic range of records far exceeds any other format of music

Originally Posted by vigneshkumar31

The vinyl renaissance is happening now, and LP record sales have hit the roof. The records culture in India is fast catching up, or I should say reviving and I see quite a few people spinning LPs.

Originally Posted by deathwalkr

Maybe ten years down the line i would be able to invest in a good LP setup.

Originally Posted by R2D2

There's no advantage but the sound is very natural and easy on the ears.

CDs actually have better dynamic range than Vinyls so CDs are supposed to produce the sound more accurately than vinyls. The reason CDs suffered a setback was because of digital piracy and the advent of compressed formats like mp3, etc and hence the shift to streaming platform to a large extent.

I have a Technics Direct Drive TT used with external phone and hooked to my Stereo setup, a Philips Belt driven TT with in built amplifier and own set of speakers and a modern Plastic TT from Numark that is a prtable one running on batteries for mobile usage (runs on ceramic cart).

Because vinyls are perishable medium, with time they lose details and can end up in smoothing out midrange vocals and high instruments which may be mistaken for vinyl sound signature. Similar thing happens if one listens to Tubes for a long time, they start thinking pure Solid State chains as harsh / bright and hurting to ears.

In my opinion it makes sense to invest in Vinyls only when you will go for older albums whose studio master copy of recording was in Analogue and the first pressing of the Vinyl used to be more closer replica of the original master and they both had similar or at least close by dynamic ranges so losses due to vinyl conversion were minimal (barring direct cut Vinyls). Due to preservation and replication issues, subsequent laquers and the pressings used to be usually inferior, hence the exorbitant high demand in market for first pressing of such albums.

Jump to CD, if the original studio master is digital and not done with careful mixing and editing to ensure the dynamic range is artificially subdued then anyday the CD will outperform the vinyl in terms of all measurable mechanisms of sound reproduction. At best they can be equal medium given the tonality mix in the track in context. However for a like for like comparison the majority of the Audio Chain used to play must be as much similar as possible in their sound signature (especially DAC in digital chain). A good CD played with a not so good (subjective) DAC can be easily outperformed by the Vinyl if both are produced from the same digital master.

But there is a different problem all together, modern day music companies to boost revenue are coming up with Vinyl versions of newer albums and in the process of digital to analogue transfer it can be a hot or a miss, so one needs to be cautious. Additionally for older recordings where the studio master is analogue unless the remastering process of very high quality and done carefully it is highly likely to end up being a worse overpriced items. Same applies to older albums being republished in newer vinyl editions. Modern day systems have a higher signal to noise ratio ending up demanding a much more clean audio track, try playing the first pressing of Umrao Jaan on Vinyl vs some of the excellent remastered CDs and the CD will sound better anyday provided the systems reproduce better or else clean may be reproduced and interpreted as bright.

Vinyls demand more engaging time and money to maintain and listen and unless I am the master of my own time it becomes difficult to maintain the hobby.

Also the paradigm shift that has happened where to explore newer albums there is no better choice than streaming services since not every newer album have vinyl editions or even CD editions.

So my take is, for oldies, one can resort to vinyls, but for newer albums digital or streaming is a must.

[kar_thikr]

Originally Posted by Entsurgeon

Thosr heavy slate type records are made of shellac.
====
At times they require a dedicated cartridge..

Thank you for the info , I'll try to get a working gramophone itself so that I can get that vintage sound profile and be a good conversation starter for guests at home as well.

[Entsurgeon]

Originally Posted by kar_thikr

Thank you for the info , I'll try to get a working gramophone itself so that I can get that vintage sound profile and be a good conversation starter for guests at home as well.

Old as well as newly made to give a vintage look gramophones are dime a dozen. Any antique/old stock dealer in your city would have one. Bargain hard.

[johy]

Originally Posted by navin

I would also consider Project Debut Carbon and the Sony PSHX500. What cartridge are you planning on?


If you are considering the Littons also look at the Tannoy or the Klipsch Vintage/Heritage line.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Stock cartridge to begin with. Then perhaps Rega Bias 2

Edit: Tempted to think about Techics 1200+grado after watching that lovely review. Was already subscribed to his channel, but somehow had missed this shootout. Thanks once again.

[greenhorn]

Originally Posted by mankuthimma

do you know any good contact to get the NAD checked and repaired in Bangalore ?

2. TT needs some servicing since it is few years that I played it last. Also, Is it possible to upgrade the terminal wires ( L, R, Gnd ) to better quality ones? Again, any good place to get this done ?

I don't remember the tbhp rules on promoting other forums here, so I'll not take that risk - Search for "amplifier repair in bangalore" and you will get results to another forum - you will get plenty of leads from there

[keroo1099]

Originally Posted by mankuthimma

Just like getting stranded on a nice holiday trip due to battery failure, my audiophile journey came to an abrupt end when the NAD became silent one day. It just stopped playing! If I remember, the orange light used to glow, but no sound. A suspected transformer issue, potential repair costs involved, lack of info on reliable NAD repair centers and host of other factors, the entire setup was packed up eventually. Any DIY checks I can do ? or do you know any good contact to get the NAD checked and repaired in Bangalore ?

2. TT needs some servicing since it is few years that I played it last. Also, Is it possible to upgrade the terminal wires ( L, R, Gnd ) to better quality ones? Again, any good place to get this done ?

If its just a power supply issue you can try contacting Mr.Murthy at Tools & Trades, Commercial St. His technician is pretty good at fixing all kinds of audio gear and he can probably upgrade your terminal wires. All my audio cables are made by Mr. Murthy (+919880033516).

Mods, please delete if my post giving Mr. Murthys contact is against the rules.

[keroo1099]

Originally Posted by navin

Sometime around 1999, I got married. At hat time my audio system consisted of a Denon DP 62L, Denon Tonearm and DP 103 cartridge. The Phono stage was something I build mysle using LT1028 and OPA 627 opamps.

Wow haven't heard that part number in a long time, I remember doing some op-amp rolling on my Music Hall CD player with that unit. Eventually settled on some discrete Burson op-amps which sounded the best to me.

[Thad E Ginathom]

<cross-posted. The question seems to have been answered!>

Originally Posted by kar_thikr

When I looked for a player most of them are listed for vinyl only. When I asked the guy who was selling it he didn't have much clue either. My question is can I use those players for the records that I have?

The old records are made of a substance called Shellac. Believe or not, shellac is mad from the wings of a certain beetle!

1. They are made to be played at 78rpm: the deck must run at 78rpm.

2. The cannot be played with the "microgroove" stylus that is made for 33 and 45 rpm vinyl records.

Be careful how you handle the records, they are very brittle and easy to crack or break.

Yes, you need a record player equiped to play them. Do not invest too much until you find out if they are in good enough condition to make it worthwhile.

NB: I grew up with these records. In my teens, we had record players that ran at 78/45/33, and had a reversible stylus for shellac/vinyl. But... I haven't played a 78rpm record for fifty years.