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Old 26th November 2017, 20:32   #1111
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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Originally Posted by Lone Ranger View Post
@R2D2, I have read almost all your posts on this thread, including the one where you mentioned the increase in your power bills Yes, I am prepared mentally for increased power bills. I would like to go the solar way but I rent this place and don't have a feasible way to mount the solar panels. Thank you for the tip on luxury vs need - in my case the desktop/internet is the need and the fan then will become the luxury . By the way, the air purifier consumes between 35-120 watts per unit depending on the speed it is running, it should average out at 80 watts since it usually runs in the middle setting.
Fair enough. Rented accomodation does put constraints on what one can do.

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What is your opinion on the prices that I have been quoted? Do they seem competitive?
Prices will vary from State to State and frankly I have no idea what it should cost in the NCR. Maybe some Delhi/NCR based BHPians could chime in. Take a look at batterybhai.com for their quotes. Many TBHPians including myself have purchased car batteries through this site.
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Old 27th November 2017, 09:19   #1112
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

Thanks R2D2, yes the prices are lesser when compared to batterbhai. I guess I will meet the vendor and see if I can squeeze out anything in terms of a discount.
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Old 27th November 2017, 09:41   #1113
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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I request some guidance from the experts on this thread. I have gone through the thread and now have a basic understanding of how to arrive at the correct specs, but I have never purchased an inverter before and hence the request.
I will add my 2 cents here. Set priorities on power consumption. Dogs don't need electricity usually. So that is a power saver.

Next switch to LED tube lights. A 18 W LED tube saves more than 50 % of power consumed. Keep your fan blades clean. It saves electricity. Earlier my inverter used to last about 6 hours per charge. After switching to LED, it lasts 10-11 hours.

Last edited by ampere : 27th November 2017 at 12:57. Reason: Compacted quoted post
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Old 27th November 2017, 10:12   #1114
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

Thanks for the inputs prowler. I mentioned my dogs in the context of family size otherwise yes, they do not place any additional demands on our power consumption. That's a fantastic saving by switching to LED tubes! I am assuming that this will mean changing the whole light fitting and not just the tube?
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Old 27th November 2017, 12:13   #1115
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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Also, the white elephant bit. In case you haven't read my posts below, let me tell you that inverter will be consuming quite a bit of electricity to keep the 3 tubular batteries charged and topped up. So don't be surprised to see that instead of bills going down during frequent outages your bill actually goes up. It's the inverter at work keeping your batteries in tip top condition. Therefore, I'd recommend you also consider a solar inverter to save power.
Actually i am the same situation , was wondering why our power bill was more during last couple of months even when the house was vacant for about 10 days each month .

Got the battery checked and i need to replace the current one which is around 5 yrs old . I am interested in retrofitting the inverter with Solar chargers and i stay in top floor and own flat so installation is also not an issue .

Any info will be of great help.
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Old 27th November 2017, 15:31   #1116
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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Originally Posted by Lone Ranger View Post
Thanks for the inputs prowler. I mentioned my dogs in the context of family size otherwise yes, they do not place any additional demands on our power consumption. That's a fantastic saving by switching to LED tubes! I am assuming that this will mean changing the whole light fitting and not just the tube?
Yes. There are many branded LED Tubelights available for almost the same price as the regular tube light fitting. A 18 W LED white tube provides the same light output as its conventional equivalent tube (40 W). Incidentally a normal 40 W tube light consumes more than 40 W (typically from about 50 W to 70 W depending upon the type of ballast used).
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Old 27th November 2017, 18:08   #1117
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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I was a bit concerned at the high power bills and narrowed my suspicions to 2 appliances at home that remain switched on 24/7.

a) The inverter
b) The fridge

b) After leaving the system on overnight, the batteries were fully charged. When float charging, with the battery at 100% SOC - 0.9-1.3A, 235 VAC 50 Hz

So, in both cases, the inverter consumes 421W when bulk/absorption charging and between 211-306W when float charging.
Is the AC consumption during float charging inclusive of the fridge, if its just the inverter consuming so much power, then something is wrong with your inverter or there are some other devices that are connected that you are not aware of.

Whats the power factor of your inverter, most inverters sold in india are poor efficiency.

My apc sua1000uxi 1000va model has a rated capacity of 800w which is a PF of .8 and some other apc ups which are also 1000va is rated at 660w of resistive load with a PF of .66 .

If your inverter has the same wire for input and output its a offline ups, not a line interactive.
If your inverter has anything less then .80 PF its a poor design which can explain the high consumption.

Last edited by aim120 : 27th November 2017 at 18:13.
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Old 27th November 2017, 19:04   #1118
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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Is the AC consumption during float charging inclusive of the fridge, if its just the inverter consuming so much power, then something is wrong with your inverter or there are some other devices that are connected that you are not aware of.
I checked amps via a clamp meter at the live wire that connects the my home's switchboard MCB to the inverter. It is connected in parallel to the +ve/live input of a row of MCBs via a small and "bus bar" if I may call it that.

AFAIK there no other load on the inverter, except the charging circuit, when the mains power is on. And this was measured during day time with lights, fans etc, switched off.

When power goes off the inverter supplies power at 215-220VAC to the loads that are connected to circuits handled by the respective MCBs.
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Whats the power factor of your inverter, most inverters sold in india are poor efficiency.
No idea and that is precisely what is making me consider other inverters especially the solar models. I think this one is way too inefficient.

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My apc sua1000uxi 1000va model has a rated capacity of 800w which is a PF of .8 and some other apc ups which are also 1000va is rated at 660w of resistive load with a PF of .66 .
Believe me, as a user of 2 Smart UPSes (SUA2200i, 90% efficiency at full load) and a BR1500IN there is a world of difference between the design and construction quality of a Su-kam inverter and one of these well made industry/server grade UPSes. Su-kam or other inverters are no comparison. But then you get what you pay for. The APC models are much more expensive than the Su-kam.

You're using a SUA100UXI (i think it has external batteries, right?) that would be a good move.

Maybe I should consider something similar to power the whole house instead of a Su-kam. It would offer me great peace of mind. Which external batteries have you connected? Are they flooded or VRLA?

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If your inverter has the same wire for input and output its a offline ups, not a line interactive.
Yes, this is an offline inverter with a single 4 sq.mm wire for live and 2 more a black (2.5 sq. mm) for neutral and green (1 sq. mm) for earth. I don't call it a UPS since I consider UPSes and inverters to be different appliances.

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If your inverter has anything less then .80 PF its a poor design which can explain the high consumption.
As mentioned above, I believe the high consumption is caused by poorly designed circuitry. The 2 batteries are being float charged at only 0.3A (DC) out but AC input is 1.3 A. Wow! I mean, if it's only the inverter that's consuming that's heck of a lot of wastage of power.

But you got me thinking, I need to dig a little more and see if there is a hidden load on this circuit.

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Originally Posted by rm_arjuna View Post
Actually i am the same situation , was wondering why our power bill was more during last couple of months even when the house was vacant for about 10 days each month. Got the battery checked and i need to replace the current one which is around 5 yrs old . I am interested in retrofitting the inverter with Solar chargers and i stay in top floor and own flat so installation is also not an issue .
Any info will be of great help.
@rm_arjuna, I am in the same boat myself. Will share information here as soon as I get it from a dealer I had contacted a few days back.

Last edited by R2D2 : 27th November 2017 at 19:10. Reason: added reply
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Old 27th November 2017, 21:07   #1119
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

@R2D2
Yes I am using Exide EL flooded tubular batteries, do note using a apc server UPS has pros and cons. The biggest Problem, is its inabilty to handle inrush start current of fridge compressor or say a crt tube tv when its switched On.

In my case it cannot handle a 343 liter panasonic fridge, on the other hand it works fine with the newer inverter fridges. Since they do have a Inrush current, my clamp meter when it was set to measure Inrush current it didn't register a reading with inverter compressor fridge and air conditioner.

So, if your clamp meter has the capabilty to measure the Inrush peak current, then the reading that you get on your fridge during start of the compressor should be less then the rated output capacity of the APC smart ups.
In the case of panasonic fridge its inrush start current exceeded the rated amps of the Apc Sua1000uxi. May be the higher powered Sua 2200UXI or XLI with external batteries can handle them.

Also being a line interactive model the neutral also should be isolated from the heating circuit of the house(geysers, Acs, oven etc).

I would suggest you to go for a Solar inverter which can run on batteries or main as well as solar, no point in buying another Non solar Inverter, since you already have many ups and inverters.

Last edited by aim120 : 27th November 2017 at 21:14.
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Old 27th November 2017, 21:55   #1120
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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Yes I am using Exide EL flooded tubular batteries, do note using a apc server UPS has pros and cons. The biggest Problem, is its inabilty to handle inrush start current of fridge compressor or say a crt tube tv when its switched On.
The SUA UPS models are strictly for the home theater and PCs. No other loads.

The fridge, a Panasonic inverter model, runs directly off the mains via a Sollatek voltage switcher that protects it from very high and low voltages. It does not use inverter power.

In fact the inverter powers only low to mid power loads i.e. lights, fans and the heaviest load is a PC/laptop should I choose to run it.

Quote:
So, if your clamp meter has the capabilty to measure the Inrush peak current, then the reading that you get on your fridge during start of the compressor should be less then the rated output capacity of the APC smart ups.
Yes the clamp meter does have inrush current measuring capability but its a moot point as the fridge doesn't run off the inverter during a mains outage.

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Also being a line interactive model the neutral also should be isolated from the heating circuit of the house(geysers, Acs, oven etc).
The inverter does not power geysers, ACs, oven or appliances consuming >200 W each. Frankly this is because I believe local inverter manufacturers overstate their products' (K)VA output and efficiency.

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I would suggest you to go for a Solar inverter which can run on batteries or main as well as solar, no point in buying another Non solar Inverter, since you already have many ups and inverters.
That's the next logical step..solar power as I have outlined in earlier posts.

But you've got me thinking of a 1.5-2KVA APC UPS that uses external batteries in place of the Su-kam.

But that is only after I dig deeper into what exactly is causing the inverter to consume >1A during a float charge. I will need to isolate it completely so this test is scheduled for one of the weekends.
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Old 27th November 2017, 22:46   #1121
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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An update with measurements at DC cables/wires.

DC amps (battery cables) - 0.3A which means the batteries are at 100% SOC and being float charged. Voltage 27.66 VDC

Voltage @ battery posts/terminals; Battery A 13.80 and Battery B 13.86

It's the AC amps that denote power consumption. It represents the the "hidden" cost of using inverters, something that users normally overlook.
I didn't see this post you say so DC amps is .3A x 27.66v which is less then 9 watts being sent to the battery. So rest of the AC consumption is down to the inverter circuitry and the built in fan, so thats a huge loss in efficiency.

Your float voltage is within spec of exide data, so no fault there.

Which model of sukam this is, if you look at sukam official videos in youtube, their circuit boards are a bit dated in design and components with no smd resistors,capacitors etc.
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Old 27th November 2017, 23:49   #1122
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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I didn't see this post you say so DC amps is .3A x 27.66v which is less then 9 watts being sent to the battery. So rest of the AC consumption is down to the inverter circuitry and the built in fan, so thats a huge loss in efficiency.
It is unbelievably inefficient! And frankly the more I think of it the more it annoys me. How could ANY manufacturer sell an inverter like this?

Quote:
Your float voltage is within spec of exide data, so no fault there.
The voltage and amperes are within range. So the only positive thing this darned inverter is doing is charging properly. THe last thing is I want to see is the expensive batteries being over/under charged. That would seriously compromise their life.

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Which model of sukam this is, if you look at sukam official videos in Youtube, their circuit boards are a bit dated in design and components with no smd resistors,capacitors etc.
Yes, I agree su-kam's design isn't something to shout about. These components are probably manually installed & soldered.

It is a 2013 make su-kam shiny 1500 VA sine wave model and the best part is su-kam calls this their 'premium' range. LOL!

Info on their website Su-kam Shiny

But I now recall one of their technicians who came to replace a blown 10A fuse (which I didn't have at home) informing me the new boards have been redesigned. Maybe the newer units are more efficient.

So assuming the inverter, rather the live wire, is not carrying a hidden or parasitic load, I am spending about ₹1500-2000/month on electricity charges, an amount that is astonishing when seen in the light of an inverter costing about ₹6500 back in '13. Talk about a white elephant!
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Old 28th November 2017, 01:15   #1123
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

I suggest go for KEVIN inverter.
I installed an 800va inverter in 2009 and its going superb never had any issue.
Replaced the 180mah battery after 4 years. Cant remember the battery make was something like Snowhite or Snowfield or something else but served me fantastic. Replaced with Amaron.

Kevin inverter lcd panel is very informative as well.

Considering the increase in electricity cost which I never checked, but think could be in range of 150 to 300 is negligible, if necessity should not be compromised.
OR compare it with going out for a movie or a drive, you spend more than 300 kwid in one day.

And one more feature of Kevin inverter is it AUTO stops Mains power if the voltage drops below 160V or 175V and resumes Mains again, and the flapover is awesome, no variance noticed when using electronics. You will only notice when you open the refrigerator door to see it dark in or the microwave counter dead.

Go for your requirement.

Cheers.

Last edited by Jr Godzilla : 28th November 2017 at 01:19.
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Old 28th November 2017, 09:01   #1124
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I suggest go for KEVIN inverter. I installed an 800va inverter in 2009 and its going superb never had any issue.
To its credit the Su-kam has not given me problems other than the blown fuse for which it cannot be blamed.

The previous single battery Microtek cooked its main board and the replacement had to be adjusted twice for voltage output. I wasn't at home when the service was done so no idea what the tech actually did. The disappointing thing is these Indian products are manufactured to less than acceptable standards and I am being polite. This I say from personal experience.

I am more or less convinced that I need to buy a APC unit that works with external batteries. Drawback is it will be expensive.

Anyway, I am willing to evaluate other brands too. Since you're from Pune can you tell me who the Kevin dealer is?
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Old 28th November 2017, 11:10   #1125
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

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You will only notice when you open the refrigerator door to see it dark in or the microwave counter dead
So are you saying you run your refrigerator and microwave with 800VA Inverter?
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