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Old 12th March 2018, 22:43   #1201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prithm View Post
I have no choice but to construct a small storage area under the stairwell to terrace and house this along with all the 4 batteries. I am really really worried it being outside (even though enclosed).
my kids and I were sitting in a popular juice shop one night when we started hearing loud explosions behind us. Everyone ran out of the shop and to our horror we saw a Honda Genset jumping around still running and still hooked up to the power line. The Genset was outside the sitting area and kitchen and so no one was injured. Since that day I have always feared being near one of these and never considered them in my home power backup plan.

If space permits do build a gate to this stairwell area or secure the Genset with heavy chains rigidly.

Last edited by diyguy : 12th March 2018 at 22:45.
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Old 13th March 2018, 00:04   #1202
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

That's a bit worrying! But one sees a lot of these machines powering small shops, and I have never seen one doing anything dangerous (although I doubt very much that their owners have installed them properly for electrical safety!)
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Originally Posted by prithm View Post
Thanks a ton Thad. You are my another Yoda Grand Master next to R2D2 in this forum. ... ... ...
You will notice that there are a couple of other controls apart from the two used to start and stop the generator.

Eco Throttle: This generator has an inverter system and can control its speed according to load. Turning this on will allow the engine to idle under low load, getting up speed when the load increases. We were advised not to use this for our drainage pump, which cycles frequently. At worst: leaving it off costs more in petrol.

Lights and Display Unit. The former have self-explanatory names. You can probably make out the display options too. Geeks among us may, at least when the thing is new, want to sit and watch how much power is being delivered! There is an hour meter too. Actually, I think the service interval is hours, not, like our cars, years (or km ). I'd better check that out, but ours is still in single digits.

Obviously, overload is to be avoided, and low oil level (which is an indicator that, as per a discussion in another thread, most of our cars don't have!) must re rectified immediately.

There is a fuel level guage on top of the machine near the filler cap, which is large and relatively easy to aim a petrol can at.

Like the dashboard of a car, there is information one does not necessarily need to know, but also warnings that could be critical. If you search the web, you can, I seem to remember, find the manual, for this or almost identical machine. I noticed a EU30 today, ready for use at a shop we visited. the EU70 dwarfs it!

Frankly, this thing is a)petrol and b) a bit high tech, That does not make it any harder to use: possibly the opposite. But its could probably be more likened to car, whereas a diesel machine might be more farm tractor like, and able to stand more abuse.

I think R2D2 is a real engineer. Certainly he is heaps more knowledgeable than I am. No comparison! I'm just a guy who owns one of these machines

Last edited by Thad E Ginathom : 13th March 2018 at 00:07.
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Old 30th March 2018, 10:15   #1203
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

Guys , need to purchase a new Inverter + Batteries in another few weeks. We Currently have 2 X Amaron 100 AH batteries . This time planning to go for tall tubular batteries.
Need some guidance.

1. Is it better to have a single tall tubular battery of high AH vs 2 x smaller normal batteries.
2. Do tall tubular have better power drain characteristics than normal ones?
3. Do tall tubular last longer than normal ones?
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Old 30th March 2018, 11:13   #1204
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by sagarpadaki View Post

1. Is it better to have a single tall tubular battery of high AH vs 2 x smaller normal batteries.
2. Do tall tubular have better power drain characteristics than normal ones?
3. Do tall tubular last longer than normal ones?
1. If cost is not a constraint, go for tubular. It would cost around 5k more than the combined cost of 2 normal ones.
2. Yes. They have high cycle life (no. of possible charging - discharging) coupled with fast charging. They are highly reliable too.
3. Average life of tubular ones are 4-5 years, whereas for normal ones, its usually 2-3 years.
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Old 30th March 2018, 11:22   #1205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sagarpadaki View Post
Guys , need to purchase a new Inverter + Batteries in another few weeks. We Currently have 2 X Amaron 100 AH batteries . This time planning to go for tall tubular batteries.
Need some guidance.
Some tips from my experience

Quote:
1. Is it better to have a single tall tubular battery of high AH vs 2 x smaller normal batteries.
A tubular battery is constructed differently from flat plate batterys. Tubulars are designed for heavy discharge and a larger number of charge discharge cycles.

Quote:
2. Do tall tubular have better power drain characteristics than normal ones?
Yes, as mentioned above.

Quote:
3. Do tall tubular last longer than normal ones?
Yes, if maintained properly they will last 6-8 years. My current set of 2 x 200 AH Exide Invatubulars are going strong and they turn 5 years old in about 2 weeks from today.

Tall tubulars have more electrolyte that helps in:

a) Reducing top up frequency
b) Keep the battery at slightly lower operating temps due to the volume of electrolyte within.

I topped off my batteries with DW in mid Nov and the floats are now going down to the low mark. They will hit the refill mark in about 10 days from now according to me. Elapsed time? 5 months since the last refill. Of course this depends on the # of power cuts and duration. It is better to check and top off every 2-3 months.

The gist: I always recommend tall tubulars for inverter applications. But do note long duration power failures are becoming rare nowadays as supply gets more reliable. So do consider if you really want a high capacity battery for e.g. 180-200 AH or if a 100-150 AH could do for your use case.
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Old 30th March 2018, 12:11   #1206
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by knightrider_7 View Post
1. If cost is not a constraint, go for tubular. It would cost around 5k more than the combined cost of 2 normal ones.
2. Yes. They have high cycle life (no. of possible charging - discharging) coupled with fast charging. They are highly reliable too.
3. Average life of tubular ones are 4-5 years, whereas for normal ones, its usually 2-3 years
Thanks knightrider. I will keep these in mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by R2D2 View Post
Some tips from my experience

A tubular battery is constructed differently from flat plate batterys. Tubulars are designed for heavy discharge and a larger number of charge discharge cycles.

Yes, if maintained properly they will last 6-8 years. My current set of 2 x 200 AH Exide Invatubulars are going strong and they turn 5 years old in about 2 weeks from today.

The gist: I always recommend tall tubulars for inverter applications. But do note long duration power failures are becoming rare nowadays as supply gets more reliable. So do consider if you really want a high capacity battery for e.g. 180-200 AH or if a 100-150 AH could do for your use case.
Thanks for the insight R2D2.

I was planning to go for a single 150 AH tubular coupled with APC 1500 VA inverter.

What are your thoughts on the inverter choice of APC? Since you have done a lot of analysis on the power consumption of the inverter during idle and charge. Your insights will be helpful
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Old 30th March 2018, 12:34   #1207
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by sagarpadaki View Post
Thanks knightrider. I will keep these in mind



Thanks for the insight R2D2.

I was planning to go for a single 150 AH tubular coupled with APC 1500 VA inverter.

What are your thoughts on the inverter choice of APC? Since you have done a lot of analysis on the power consumption of the inverter during idle and charge. Your insights will be helpful
Most if not all models above 1000va usually work on 24v meaning you will need two batteries in series. They will not work on single battery, so check if it supports first

Also that apc 1500va home inverter is only 880w, if it is then thats really poor design.

Last edited by aim120 : 30th March 2018 at 12:38.
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Old 30th March 2018, 13:19   #1208
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
Most if not all models above 1000va usually work on 24v meaning you will need two batteries in series. They will not work on single battery, so check if it supports first

Also that apc 1500va home inverter is only 880w, if it is then thats really poor design.
Did not think about the 24V dependency. Thank you.

And what do you mean 1500VA(Watts) is only 880W?
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Old 30th March 2018, 15:13   #1209
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

Well 1500va ups has a rated load of 880w means, it has a power factor of around 0.59 and typically these days anything other then a power factor of .80 or more is not considered efficient. My APC SMART UPS(smart ups not meant for appliances that have high start up current) is only 1000va yet it can give 800watt of incandescent bulb load, since it has a power factor of .80 .

I believe some of the sukam models are .80 power factor.

Last edited by aim120 : 30th March 2018 at 15:17.
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Old 30th March 2018, 15:56   #1210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aim120 View Post
Well 1500va ups has a rated load of 880w means, it has a power factor of around 0.59 and typically these days anything other then a power factor of .80 or more is not considered efficient. My APC SMART UPS(smart ups not meant for appliances that have high start up current) is only 1000va yet it can give 800watt of incandescent bulb load, since it has a power factor of .80 .

I believe some of the sukam models are .80 power factor.
Ok, so if i understand correctly, APC 1000 VA has power factor of 0.8 which allows it to O/P max of 800W and APC 1500 VA has power factor of 0.59 which allows it to O/P max of 880W .?
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Old 30th March 2018, 20:37   #1211
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

Yes that is correct.
Apc home series ups are designed in India for India only, its not a global product. Schneider electric owns both Apc and luminous.

If I where you, I would look at luminous or sukam models which have a high PF(again not all models have good PF.)
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Old 31st March 2018, 11:29   #1212
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

All, my ups battery went bad recently (exide) and I replaced it. The battery report from exide indicates that there was a bulge due to overcharging. Now the inverter (local make) was repaired and it now apparently does not overcharge, but I am nervous about how the inverter failed the first time and there was no indicator to show that it was overcharging. While I plan to replace the inverter in the long term, is there any way I can find out if the overcharge issue is fixed properly?

Some ideas I have:
1. Buy a current meter and fix it and monitor regularly. DC current meters upto 10A are available on Amazon for about RS. 500 but the wires seem too flimsy to carry 10amps while charging . I am talking about something like this : xcluma Digital Voltmeter Ammeter Dc 0-100V 10A Dual Led Red Blue Monitor Panel https://www.amazon.in/dp/B072FKVFVP/..._5jYVAbSBZGCWN

2. Buy a clamp meter to measure current. Most of the meters under a thousand bucks seem to only measure AC current and not DC. I could still measure the AC input to the inverter and get a fair idea of how much current is going to the battery.

Any other ideas?
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Old 31st March 2018, 13:34   #1213
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

If it overcharges the dc voltage will be high. You can use the products such as those in that link, but you will need to make sure that the reading its showing is accurate and chances are that they may not be.
If there is a multimeter you can use that to calibrate it(assuming that meter has a calibration pot)

Without a Dc clamp meter measuring AC is useless.

Last edited by aim120 : 31st March 2018 at 13:35.
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Old 1st April 2018, 09:38   #1214
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

Quote:
Originally Posted by sagarpadaki View Post
I was planning to go for a single 150 AH tubular coupled with APC 1500 VA inverter.

What are your thoughts on the inverter choice of APC? Since you have done a lot of analysis on the power consumption of the inverter during idle and charge. Your insights will be helpful
I think aim120 has correctly given you some tips on the type of inverter to select. You will need 2 batteries for inverters over 1000 VA so that essentially results in a significant increase in the costs. 2 batteries also mean more electricity is consumed to charge and float charge them. There is a running cost/maintenance involved with inverters and battery combinations but it is not very significant unless the circuitry or battery decide to go haywire.

Buy only tall tubular batteries as they last way longer than flat plates. Keep an eye on the electrolyte levels and top of ONLY with distilled water once in 2-3 months. I would not recommend the newer gel cell inverter batteries as they are very sensitive to temperature and charging voltages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deep_bang View Post
While I plan to replace the inverter in the long term, is there any way I can find out if the overcharge issue is fixed properly?

Some ideas I have:
2. Buy a clamp meter to measure current. Most of the meters under a thousand bucks seem to only measure AC current and not DC. I could still measure the AC input to the inverter and get a fair idea of how much current is going to the battery.

Any other ideas?
You need to buy a clamp meter to measure AC + DC current. An AC only meter is useless for your purpose. Stay away from those cheap Chinese meters and get good mid-rung brands like Meco, Rushabh, Mastech, UNI-T etc. Fluke is highly recommended and this model is a mid priced offering: Fluke 362 AC/DC clamp meter
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Old 17th April 2018, 17:12   #1215
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Default Re: Inverter Batteries

Dear R2D2 and others,

Could you please give us a set of instructions on how to properly check and maintain tall tubular batteries? I am running about 22 in series, they are pretty expensive, and i would love to get some specific advice on this.

If this has been written before, please do point me in that direction.
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