[sam003]

Originally Posted by deathwalkr

just got a HTC Legend and to my dismay it does not support Business Cards :(

Any detail review for Legend ?

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by vjoy3

cMore assumptions about how dumb the other guy is?. Pity you.

1. Did you ever conducted the tests I gave elsewhereto check how well Dalvik performs ?
2. but since you choose not to understand so better leave at that point.
3. Well FYI if you don't know ....
4. strangely only you seem to deny it why don't you talk to someone from OHA or google for a change and ask about it.
5. Read again to see what I mean

I raised found a range of negatives right from performance , suboptimal use or resources , Application management policy and collecton of data even if you do not use google APi for which separate license exist , But you seem to sing a single tune of the business model ( Open Source closed governance) . Well from very beging I always maintained the busness model is good though there can be better ones like open source open governence one of Kernel.org but that is another point. A good busniess model does not make excellent product and another example is OpenMOko
You need not pity it is evident that no meaningful conversation is possible with this missionary like approach of yours so thanks and lets end it here.

Originally Posted by vjoy3

Did it occur to you that the APIs are to ensure having a standard platform for all app developers and hence portability of apps across phones?. Nothing new here, almost all other models that encourage app development do that. And, yes, you need to really convince OHA that the new API you fancy is missing is really needed. Nothing wrong there.

Try taking suggestion of removing some of the TC related to data collection from google experience compliance and see yourself.

Originally Posted by vjoy3

about propriety stuff like TI bridge code for IAM interfaces and similar code from other hardware vendors it is still not open so why keep on harping on that.

And you are blaming google for this or is it the fault with TI/Samsung etc.,?

Why should I blame anyone none of the problems of Android are due to anything in kernel or below so any-thinking person will never blame TI ,Samsung or anyone else.

Google decided the Application model and also the VM and google is the one who chooses which patches out of thousands submitted should go in main line. Google is the one who is collecting location specific data to build a robust database for it's advertising based busniess so they are the one who will get bouquets or brickbats.

BTW any reason they need TI or Samsung when they have Qualcomm in the fold and Google Reference hardware uses Qualcomm SoC ?

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by mrohit17

Since I am new to Android, my question to friends who have already got the firmware upgrade is that will upgrading the CSC file automatically upgrade the firmware also to 2.1?

Regards;
-Rohit

You should upgrade all 4 binaries bootloader , Phone , PDA and CSC , Bootloader basically defines the various areas on the flash where appropriate binaries should be placed , As of now there is no major change but in case there is a diff in boot loader then it may brick you phone.
As of this release there are no major changes which introduce incompatibilities so old boot loader and phone binaries work but it is not always the case ( may be next release if ever SPICA receives upgrade) so flash full set.

[zaks]

Any idea when N1 will be officially available here? If it's already available what's the price and who's selling it?

[vjoy3]

Someone talked of HDMI missing in android. Check this out :

HTC Supersonic / EVO 4G - HTC EVO 4G Preview - the first dual display Android product and also support HDMI 720p.

Performance with HDMI output with HD video demo here - HTC EVO 4G (Supersonic) HDMI HD video demo

Vijay

[SilentEngine]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

One major flaw in the SE xperia X10-

the alarm does not ring if the phone is switched off!

I think that's because of android OS.
Other android phone users here can confirm.

[ph03n!x]

Originally Posted by raj_5004

One major flaw in the SE xperia X10-

the alarm does not ring if the phone is switched off!

Originally Posted by SilentEngine

I think that's because of android OS.
Other android phone users here can confirm.

Nah, don't think it is an OS thing - I remember quite a few Sony Ericsson phones with this "feature". In fact I had raised this as an issue in Esato when I bought my SE P900 way back in 2004.

[vjoy3]

Did someone say competition is now between OS 4 and Symbian 3 with Android out of the smartphone race?. Read this -

"A Wave of Android Smartphones Outsells Apple" A Wave of Android Smartphones Outsells Apple - BusinessWeek



Incrementally reach perfection - Typical approach google has taken for all its products. Android is no different. At this pace and with more and more companies switching to open source, linux phones are finally making it to the mainstream. Gone are the days when they were only for a bunch of geeks and japanese/chinese markets.

Vijay

[SilentEngine]

Originally Posted by ph03n!x

Nah, don't think it is an OS thing - I remember quite a few Sony Ericsson phones with this "feature". In fact I had raised this as an issue in Esato when I bought my SE P900 way back in 2004.

May be it's common in SE.
But also i think all android phones have this behavior android phones. Checked with a colleague who has N1.

[vjoy3]

Originally Posted by rohan_iitr

Even the earlier SE mobile phones (without fancy OS) used to have this feature.

The alarm would ring even if the phone is switched off.

Rohan

Doesn't work on G1, N1 even tried on a HTC Windows phone.
Reminds me of this capsule shaped tiny phone I used to have few years ago from i-mobile(thailand). After I stopped using it and switched off, it continued ringing everyday for next 20+ days till I gave up and removed the battery

Vijay

[amitk26]

Originally Posted by DerAlte

Doesn't that happen in ANY phone if one switches the phone off (powers down)? How will the phone power itself on unless triggered by the Power-on button? It needs a wake-up section in hardware, which can keep working even if other sections are powered off and trigger a power-on in the same way a long press on the power button does. This section is usually associated with a clock, but may not be implemented everywhere.

This is available on Nokia and Samsung phones (Except Android phones)

How it works
----------------
Well the way it works is using the RTC module , On a PC BIOS backed by a battery keeps track of the clock and if you pull out Li-Ion BIOS battery date and time of your PC will be reset after reboot.

On system using embedded processors same is achieved using the main battery itself. On the ARM based CPUs of today there are multiple power modes. Even during the power off the RTC modules draws little power (negligible actually) and system clock is on while CPU and all the peripherals are off.

When the alarm is set and the phone is powering down alarm service or subsystem in user space writes down the next wakeup time to the module controlling RTC through system call and driver interface ( internally called by system call)

So for implementing this feature in any OS 3 things are required

1. Hardware capability , Today all ARM based CPUs on which Android is available has this ( Qualcomm MSM 7201A , Snapdragon , TI OMAP 34XX and Samsung SC6410 , C110 ) , Even more primitive processors have this capability so this is not an issue.

2. Alarm Subsystem and RTC driver which can sense that phone is powering off and write next makeup values to RTC.

3. System APIs by which Alarm subsystem can use the RTC driver framework to write these values to the RTC.

4. A minimal application which comes up at the time of wake-up and prompts user if he/she wants to boot OS.

If device vendors are controlling the OS they can easily implement 2, 3 and 4 and thus cheap Nokia ,Samsung and blackberry phones have it.

Why It does not work on Android ( Also Windows Mobile)

This is an old pending bug in Android Issue number 1942. ( there are lots of similar bugs raised some of them closed down)
Actually there are a number of problems related to Alarm some of them were fixed in 1.5 and some of them are left open , Some fixed ones need to be reopened IMHO seeing that they are not fully fixed.

Bug 1942 received no attention from those who control the release . Some times the reason provided is why would anyone need this feature and sometimes the buck is passed saying it needs hardware capability which is obviously not true. Many other times buck is passed stating it does not exist in Windows mobile and iPhone so should not exist in Android as well.

This is there because item 2 , 3 and 4 do not exist in Android. In my opinion there are lots of other high priority pending issues in Android alarm module so this comes at lower priority

Why device manufacturers like Samsung , Motorola and HTC do not provide 2 ,3 and 4 themselves

This is quite possible but believe me or not , power on from alarm wake up is not the only issue.
It is the matter of policy so if suppose all such issues are being fixed inhouse then a sum total will be a big fork from mainstream. It will be fork as these device manufacturers do not decide what is going in the next release. Then it would mean an effort as big as maintaining an inhouse OS.
Creating fork will mean loosing all benifits of a 3ed party OS.

Motorola clearly will not want to do this as in 2008 they abondoned Linux-Java ( renamed to motomagic later) to save costs when they had finencial trouble. Samsung has a number of in-house platforms to maintain and Android is just another 3ed party OS. I do not know about HTC they should do actually as it is their bread and butter.


While Open Source-ness of Android may excite evangalists and app developers who write in java layer, Closed maintainence model is a big concern for system developers and managers.

PS : For those who believe that Chip vendors and hardware manufacturer are some how responsible for RTC issue as they do not contribute to OS they need to check kernel.org where whole kernel source code of SC6410 and OMAP platform is available barring proprietary codecs source code.

[raj_5004]

that was really informative, thanks amit.

[vjoy3]

Originally Posted by amitk26

This is available on Nokia and Samsung phones (Except Android phones)[b]

If device vendors are controlling the OS they can easily implement 2, 3 and 4 and thus cheap Nokia ,Samsung and blackberry phones have it.

This seems to be the bone of contention against android?

[/u]This is an old pending bug in Android Issue number 1942. ( there are lots of similar bugs raised some of them closed down)
Actually there are a number of problems related to Alarm some of them were fixed in 1.5 and some of them are left open , Some fixed ones need to be reopened IMHO seeing that they are not fully fixed.
If the community in general does not think it is not high priority, so be it. Am sure HTCs and Samsungs of the world launched multiple phones AFTER this bug was discovered, its their choice.

Some times the reason provided is why would anyone need this feature and sometimes the buck is passed saying it needs hardware capability which is obviously not true.
Education begins at home. may be we can see the next set of Samsung phones with this high priority bug fixed

Many other times buck is passed stating it does not exist in Windows mobile and iPhone so should not exist in Android as well.
I was only mentioning that its no big deal (and it was first mentioned even in this forum as a passing comment and not like 'phone hangs' or something.

[u]Why device manufacturers like Samsung , Motorola and HTC do not provide 2 ,3 and 4 themselves
It is the matter of policy so if suppose all such issues are being fixed inhouse then a sum total will be a big fork from mainstream. It will be fork as these device manufacturers do not decide what is going in the next release. Then it would mean an effort as big as maintaining an inhouse OS.
Creating fork will mean loosing all benifits of a 3ed party OS.
Absolutely wrong. All android phones except N1 have enough customisations as differentiating factor. Just as predicted, while the revolutionary Symbian/N8 was touted to have HDMI whenever it hits the market, Android already got HDMI with HTCs 4G phone.

Motorola clearly will not want to do this as in 2008 they abondoned Linux-Java ( renamed to motomagic later) to save costs when they had finencial trouble. Samsung has a number of in-house platforms to maintain and Android is just another 3ed party OS. I do not know about HTC they should do actually as it is their bread and butter.
Each company has its own strategy. No point making fun of a Motorola or HTC. Without Android, Motorola would not have retained the walkie talkie division at all that made it a house hold name for decades.
As for Samsung, they target broader market and definitely a 1400 Rs phone will need lesser hardware and cheaper OS.
HTC has mostly been targetting smartphone market and a windows / android platform suits it. Given the way it has exceeding its own revenue expectations quarter after quarter, time other learnt a lesson or two.
Also. if I remember correctly, Moto did not leave linux phone to save costs but coz even after years on trying to develop Linux phones on their own, then were going no where with the lousy phones and it made sense not to spend money on loss making phones

While Open Source-ness of Android may excite evangalists and app developers who write in java layer, Closed maintainence model is a big concern for system developers and managers.

Another wrong label. There are enough contributors working on the non-java layers of android. May be few who did not get the opportunity / failed to convince that they high priority fix/code are really high enough for others


PS : For those who believe that Chip vendors and hardware manufacturer are some how responsible for RTC issue as they do not contribute to OS
[I]Who said that?. More assumptions?[/i]
barring proprietary codecs source code.
And why are they doing that?

Hope folks who repeatedly kept harping that Android is way behind iPhone and others smart phones have read the latest news.

[amitk26]

@vjoy : I can just appreciate your ability to selectively read and twist the words , but you sure are very good evangelist ,
I will not respond to any of the specifics in your post .

Somehow if you read again it was clearly written this perticular bug is low priority compared to all other Alarm related bugs Android has but you preferred to ignore it.

I can still safely say there are more then 200 such ones which impact overall user experience and they are enough to create a fork if fixed.

While community and consumers do think they are important maintainers think otherwise. Some of the bugs may seem innocent but they need big changes in framework.

For instance start the camcorder and then change between landscape and portrait mode , Check if the UI toolbar also changes it's orinetation from portrait and landscape or not. I do not want to eloberate on the technicalities of how to implement this but other phones implement it for ages.

Some of such bugs may not be reported as well but they are quite important for example as I already wrote Dalvik performance is pathetic but PR machinery advertise it as an optimized java virtual machine

I am not spokesperson for Samsung or anyone else but if someone finds it merits to create a fork and fix issues it will be done.

Some signs are already there if you look at kandroid.org of Korea or China Unicom and others in China to create thier own ecosystem out of google control.

before someone jumps and say they are hijacking googles effort we need to remember Google also used the Kernel.org efforts and Apache Harmony project and open binder to create Android.

Also Android Linux kernel is now forked from Linux kernel.

Originally Posted by vjoy3

Hope folks who repeatedly kept harping that Android is way behind iPhone and others smart phones have read the latest news.

Yes yes the latest news is that the so called 28% market share news on USA is not based on actual sales figure but a telephonic survey result based on 150,000 respondents on what they would buy.
Gartner report on sales figure paint entirely different picture for worldwide sales.

Yes I fully respect the PR machinary but anyway sales is indication of how much promotion and subsidy operators are offering so I do not give much importance.
If sales would have reflected technical capability Nokia N900 would have sold like hot cake.

Second big news is that Kernel.org is not willing to merge Android patches for Linux kernel in mainline and the patch is deleted.

It is an old news but may be relevent for those who are found of open sourceness.

Google's Android code deleted from Linux kernel ? The Register

Each company has its own strategy. No point making fun of a Motorola or HTC. Without Android, Motorola would not have retained the walkie talkie division at all that made it a house hold name for decades.
As for Samsung, they target broader market and definitely a 1400 Rs phone will need lesser hardware and cheaper OS.
HTC has mostly been targetting smartphone market and a windows / android platform suits it. Given the way it has exceeding its own revenue expectations quarter after quarter, time other learnt a lesson or two.
Also. if I remember correctly, Moto did not leave linux phone to save costs but coz even after years on trying to develop Linux phones on their own, then were going no where with the lousy phones and it made sense not to spend money on loss making phones

No one was making fun but just a possible reason , HDMI on Android was anyway first announced and demoed on Galaxy-S in CTIA show in Las Vegas.
Your comments on Motorola Linux Phones demonstrate the deep understanding gained by reading analysis's on gizmodo and such other places and I respect that but I am sure there are people who have seen the actual code and phones and think otherwise.

The development costs were too high for Motorola due to entieryly different reasons and they take simply too much time to roll out models against industry cycle of 3 months. If someone has worked in old Motorola he/she may know how 'Sarkari' was the company not just in overseas R&D center but in Libertyvile and Schaumburg as well.

[shajufx]

Vjoy and Amit, are you guys trying to compete on 'who writes more' ? I couldnt catch much of both posts, because it goes over my head !!

Can we have simplified discussion on mobile phones here ? May be I am far behind to understand a detailed discussion about gadgets.