Team-BHP - Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras

Off topic, but that picture by Samurai took me back to my childhood. We had a similar kitchen in our ancestral home in Kerala. My grandmom used to cook on a wood fire and I specially remember light streaming through a glass tile. :) The stoves used to be at waist level instead of on the ground. I am guess this is a shot from coastal Karnataka. KA-20, must be close to Mangalore.

Thank you for a wonderful snap!

Thanks for the appreciation typeO-, this kitchen belongs to a 200+ year old house near Manipal.

Check here for more details: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/trave...mes-india.html

I don't want to get into Sensor fights. Long ago I decided that I am no pro and can be happy with 4/3 sensor. So I focused on lenses, and Zuiko is yet to disappoint me, except in m4/3 range. I guess they still have to work out the quirks before faster lenses can be offered in m4/3. Funnily enough, many people who fight about sensors rarely invest in fast lenses.

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Originally Posted by Samurai (Post 2272385)

Do slow lenses limit dynamic range? I have been wondering about the since last week...

I had a long shooting session at my grandparents house using the E-PL1 with 9-18mm F/4-5.6 lens. Lots of indoor shots with no flash. I felt that I got lot less DR than with E-3.

I think DR is associated with the sensor and not the lens. I'm not sure about the sensors in E-3 and E-PL1 but that's what should make the difference in DR.

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Originally Posted by Samurai (Post 2270229)

Dream on Tanveer, it has nothing to do with the body or sensor. The E-3 and E-PL1 have the same sensor, the latter even has next generation IQ. Yet E-PL1 can't match the E-3 in low light. Check my post#170, it is the fast lens that makes the difference in low light condition. None of the EVIL families have lenses fast enough to match the dSLR families.

No, I do mean all EVIL cameras. There are simply no fast lenses.

Look the lenses I have for 4/3 and m4/3.

4/3 12-60mm F/2.8-4 vs m4/3 9-18mm F/4-5.6

You see the difference?

And all along I was fighting over the topic of EVIL cameras and shouting they were not a replacement for PROPER DSLR's :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsk1979 (Post 2274700)

@Samurai : m4/3 is not same as EVIL. Sony also makes EVIL cams. Its just there there are none on m4/3 format.

Sigh! If you have followed this thread long enough, you will know that I am aware of EVIL cameras other than m3/4. Even Sony doesn't have any fast lenses except for 16mm F/2.8 pancake, which is very limited. Same goes for 17mm F/2.8 pancake from Zuiko. NX has a 30mm F/2 pancake.

The Samsung NX has recently announced some fast prime lenses, but not fast zooms. Only their 2013 roadmap look exciting. Sony road map is not that great, no fast lenses.

As of now, no EVIL camera maker has fast lenses except for pancake lenses. Let's not just beat up on Olympus. My 4/3 50-200mm telezoom lens is F/2.8-3.5, meanwhile all the zooms lenses in every EVIL camera family (NOT JUST m4/3) start at F/3.5 as of now. The only telezoom in Sony family is 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3. :deadhorse

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There is no technology limiting Fast lenses on EVIL cameras.

If there is no technology limitation, what is stopping Sony? I don't know about you, but I can't go around with pancake lens as my walkaround lens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tsk1979 (Post 2274700)

@Samurai : m4/3 is not same as EVIL. Sony also makes EVIL cams. There is no technology limiting Fast lenses on EVIL cameras. Its just there there are none on m4/3 format.

I will have to take Samurai side here, but that being said, technology is somewhat limited as to Money and market strategy and not to technical side.

First of all If one wants a f1 lens for 2x Crop, one has to have a f~0.45 lens in 35mm terms (50mm f0.95 acts as 100mm f1.7x on 2x crop). That is a challenge in itself, inherited by smaller sensors. Why did it took so long for 2x crop to come forward when we had upto 1.6x crop there solely for providing more reach with tele's like 70-200mm.

Its a hard thing to get around but one needs to look at sensors as a micro-manager and at the big picture, at the same time.

Also why will a company spend so much money and put fast lenses for m4/3 when those fast lenses will destroy DSLR sales, it makes no sense in marketing terms.

micro 4/3 and 4/3 both have same sensor size.
Olympus has only 4/3 sized sensor. So I could not get your point raj.

So why no fast lenses yet on m4/3 and other EVIL cams?
I think its because its a new format, geared towards entry level. Entry level people rarely buy very expensive lenses, so F2.8 lenses may have a few takers.
But as system gets more popular, third party vendors come in to fill the void.
Expect good F2.8 zooms from Sigma etc., in the new formats, esp when Sony makes its specification open.

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Originally Posted by clevermax (Post 2274810)

Yes. Fast or slow lenses has nothing to do with dynamic range. It is sensor dependent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gandhi (Post 2272414)

I think DR is associated with the sensor and not the lens.

I don't usually research sensors that much. I guess you guys must be right. While DR may not be affected, the noise level is lot higher in E-PL1.

I bought EVIL camera because of convenience. And it is really super convenient, it is the first non P&S I was able to wear while offroading, where one has to constantly jump in and out the Jeep. I could never do that with the dSLRs.

I hoped it would be as good as the dSLR, but that hasn't happened yet. In my opinion, it is because the m4/3 lenses are yet to match the 4/3 lenses. I know some of you want to blame the sensor, but I have the same size sensor on all my cameras, so I can't abide with that argument.

For people who mistakenly believe I am biased towards m4/3, I have to say this. Three days back a member asked the following question via PM:

Quote:

Would u comment on the IQ of your m4/3s cam? would the DR, high ISO quality be as good as 4/3s cam.

My answer is quoted in post #174 of this thread, in which I have asked him not to consider E-PL1 since he wants high ISO quality.

If you still not convinced, see what I said a year back: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/gadge...ml#post1772047

And here: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/gadge...ml#post1739222

And here: https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/gadge...ml#post1736093

So far, this thread is m4/3 centric because we don't have NEX or NX cameras owners here. Once that happens, I am sure Sony will get a major share. Once Canon and Nikon too come out with their EVIL cameras, then this thread will become completely Canon/Nikon centric, like the dSLR thread. It is just a matter of time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai (Post 2275171)

I don't usually research sensors that much. I guess you guys must be right. While DR may not be affected, the noise level is lot higher in E-PL1.

I would attribute the noise level too to the sensor and not the lens.

Quote:

I bought EVIL camera because of convenience. And it is really super convenient, it is the first non P&S I was able to wear while offroading, where one has to constantly jump in and out the Jeep. I could never do that with the dSLRs.

Of course. That's the USP of m4/3 cameras.

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I know some of you want to blame the sensor, but I have the same size sensor on all my cameras, so I can't abide with that argument.

Same size sensor doesn't mean same characteristics. All APS-C cameras have same size sensors but the exhibit varied characteristics vastly different to one another.

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Once Canon and Nikon too come out with their EVIL cameras, then this thread will become completely Canon/Nikon centric, like the dSLR thread. It is just a matter of time.

I know. Ask me about how it feels. I own a Pentax :).