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-   -   Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras (https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/gadgets-computers-software/93694-mirrorless-evil-cameras-151.html)

asitkde 17th March 2020 18:37

Re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Finally I am in the mirrorless boat.

I have been a long-time shooter with cameras with mirrors. Starting with a Nikon EM SLR with an Nikon E-series 50mm f/1.8 prime in early 1983, and more recently owning a Nikon D3000 (with a CCD sensor), then a Canon 550D and then again Nikon D7200 with a host of lenses, I finally just got myself a full frame mirrorless Nikon Z6 with 2 Z-mount lenses - Z 24-70mm f/4 S and Z 50mm f/1.8 S.

I am currently setting up my new camera. Although it is very much a Nikon, it'd still take me some time to set it up suiting my style of shooting.

But, let me share my first impressions:

1. As an amateur, what has struck me most is the build quality. The Nikon Z6 and both the lenses I got are built like tanks. My D7200, a top level APS-C camera which even some professionals own and the F mount lenses like 24-120mm f/1.4 and 20mm f/1.8 G come nowhere near the build quality of the Z6 body and the Z mount lenses. They are quite compact, but obviously not very light with that kind of build quality and fully weather sealed.

2. The Z6 even with the f/4 lens has tremendous low light capability. Last night I was using this combination at home with ISO 3200, and I could not trace any noise in the dark areas even at 100%. My D7200, something I was very proud with, would certainly have noise in this situation.

3. I have so far tried only a single point auto-focus (AF-S in Nikon parlance). The focus is unbelievably quick, because Nikon uses only phase detect auto-focus, and extremely accurate.

4. I am pleasantly surprised that my Z6 already comes in the box with the Firmware 3.0 updated. That firmware was announced by Nikon less than a month ago and improves auto focus features and functionality. I am yet to test these improvements though.

With DSLRs, firmware updates were almost non-existent. In the mirrorless world, things have become more software dependent and interesting to note that the same hardware (in this case the Nikon Z6 appearing in the market in the later part of 2018) can take several firmware updates that keep on improving the product. This is also true for all other mirrorless cameras on the market today, I am told.

vibbs 5th June 2020 15:17

Re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Hey Guys,

I have been toying with the idea of buying a mirror less for some time. I sold my DSLR last year.

For now I have zeroed in on Sony A6600 and Fujifilm X-T3. But I am unable to decide. It seems from a bit of reading Fujifilm is the better overall camera, but lacks image stabilization which I think is important.

People who are familiar with mirrorless world, how are the lens ecosystems for both Fujifilm and Sony?

DaptChatterjee 7th June 2020 10:46

Re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vibbs (Post 4818133)
People who are familiar with mirrorless world, how are the lens ecosystems for both Fujifilm and Sony?

Fuji has a much better collection of apsc lenses compared to any other camera manufacturer. But if you add Sony FF lenses, Sony probably has the advantage due to longer tele photo lenses. Fuji hasn't made a XXX-500/600mm lens yet.

For me the biggest disadvantage of Fuji lens ecosystem is the absence of third party lenses. With Sony, you have all those Sigma, Tamron and Tokina's (and Zeiss:D).

AnandB 7th June 2020 11:03

Re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
I suggested Fuji X-T3 few months back to my sister after her DSLR was stolen in Greece. One of the lenses was a Samyang so there a few third party lenses out there.

Thad E Ginathom 7th June 2020 15:17

Re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Add Samyang to the Sony list too. And Lowa, who make some interesting unique stuff. And a few others. Adapters available for mounting other brands too, although the ones that maintain full auto functions are pricey unless one already has the lenses.

I think that Fuji wins for those who want traditional-camera look and feel. Sony is not that good on ergonomics, but, even though I find that finger yoga is necessary sometimes (a6500), I don't mind because I'm used to it. We do get used to what we use daily.

One marries into a system, and having invested in it, change is neither easy nor cheap. If I was to backtrack three years, and think again more seriously... I might have gone with Olympus. But then I don't know the prices and whether I could have afforded it or not. Big USP is their weather proofing. Lumix is another brand I might (or should) have considered. I might even have decided on Sony full-frame rather than APS-C, but then I would have had to do more saving up, and I was also prioritising small.

AnandB 7th June 2020 16:11

Re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
X-T3 has one of the best stock kit lens (18-55mm) which you don't need to replace like Canon or other ones. Check out its reviews. I added the Samyang 12mm ultra wide to her kit with a zoom to be added later. She went to North Norway for northern lights first week of March and absolutely loved the camera coming from her dslr especially because it was so easy to carry.

click 8th June 2020 12:45

Re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Both are great, I use fuji but have friends who swear by Sony.

In the end, both do their work well, have good lenses and accessories. It boils down to which one do you prefer holding and shooting with. The ergonomics plays a big role in how you shoot. If the camera is comfortable and becomes a natural fit, you will not be thinking about the equipment and pay more attention to the photograph you want to take.

My advice, try both in your hands. If you can borrow/rent both for a day, it will really help you make an informed decision.


Quote:

Originally Posted by vibbs (Post 4818133)
Hey Guys,

I have been toying with the idea of buying a mirror less for some time. I sold my DSLR last year.

For now I have zeroed in on Sony A6600 and Fujifilm X-T3. But I am unable to decide. It seems from a bit of reading Fujifilm is the better overall camera, but lacks image stabilization which I think is important.

People who are familiar with mirrorless world, how are the lens ecosystems for both Fujifilm and Sony?


Joxster 25th June 2020 12:19

Re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Olympus quits camera business after 84 years

Quote:

Olympus, once one of the world's biggest camera brands, is selling off that part of its business after 84 years.

The firm said that despite its best efforts, the "extremely severe digital camera market" was no longer profitable.

The arrival of smartphones, which had shrunk the market for separate cameras, was one major factor, it said.

It had recorded losses for the last three years.
Source

I thought this would be the most appropriate thread to share this news on, since I see Olympus being mentioned very regularly here. :)

Cheers

DaptChatterjee 25th June 2020 12:55

Re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joxster (Post 4830999)
Olympus quits camera business after 84 years

They are selling off the imaging business to JIP which will carry on manufacturing the products and also support the existing customers. Don't know if this new venture would be allowed to use the Olympus branding.Link

But the future of the photography industry, overall, looks bleak. Nikon, Fuji, Panasonic, Ricoh Pentax all are loosing money.

Thad E Ginathom 25th June 2020 15:30

Re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Joxster (Post 4830999)
Olympus quits camera business after 84 years

This is very sad. I don't have much faith in the future for the cameras.

tortoiseNhare 2nd July 2020 11:36

Re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Mirrorless full frame camera scene is hotting up. Though there has been a lot of hype on the Canon R5 for a long time, the buzz is now bigger around the more entry level Canon R6. Nikon is also not sitting idle with the announcement of their Z5. I am interested in R6 till now but have a feeling that Canon will price it higher than Sony A7iii, in which case I may as well get tempted by the Nikon Z5.

Amrik Singh 2nd July 2020 11:58

Re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom (Post 4831151)
This is very sad. I don't have much faith in the future for the cameras.

Naturally. When buying a Mobile Phone, customers do not inquire of Phone capabilities. The first question they ask is of its Camera function. Have they gone to purchase a phone or a Camera ?
With a Mobile Phone in hand and Photo Editing Software in their Computers, literally everyone has turned to be a Photographer - and sometimes, really good one too. :Frustrati

asitkde 3rd July 2020 17:09

Re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vibbs (Post 4818133)

I have been toying with the idea of buying a mirror less for some time. I sold my DSLR last year.

It would help the discussion if you let us know which camera-lens system you used before. Do you have any lenses left from your previous system? From whatever you have written in the rest of your post, I tend to conclude - you had an APS-C body that you sold off and you probably have not kept any lenses from that system.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vibbs (Post 4818133)
For now I have zeroed in on Sony A6600 and Fujifilm X-T3. But I am unable to decide. It seems from a bit of reading Fujifilm is the better overall camera, but lacks image stabilization which I think is important.

None of the APS-C, full frame or medium format cameras that you buy in 2020 are bad. In fact, they are all extremely good. The situation is vastly vastly different from even 10 years ago. But of course each camera has their strengths and weakness. Hence depending on your previous experience and gears still existing at home, and the type of photography you are likely to do decides what you should get.

Even the mirrorless Fujifilm X100V which has an APS-C sized sensor and a fixed lens is a wonderful camera-lens combination, very light and very compact, and almost weather-sealed. But that probably is not the ideal camera for me. Why? Because of the position of the viewfinder at the extreme left at the back of the camera. I shoot with my left eye and 99% of the time using the viewfinder. But the X100V is ideal for a right-eyed shooter.

If you want to shoot fast moving objects (wild life, birds in flight, racing cars/bikes etc), the Sony A6600 is a better camera because all Sonys (at least from the A6xxx to their full frame cameras) have the best autofocus (AF) for tracking such objects. Fuji, Nikon and Canon are all good in AF, but not there yet with AF for fast motion. From my estimation and talking to my photography friends, the newest Canons would be the closest to Sony in this regard. Remember, this is a fiercely competitive market, and brands leapfrog each other with time on certain features, but Sony has been ahead in this game for the last couple of years, the other brands are close but yet to fully catch up.

Between the two (A6600 and X-T3), the Fuji X-T3 is otherwise a better camera, it appears from all reviews by experts and users alike.

However, if you are into low-light photography, there are a few points to consider. Based on my previous experience of using Nikon D7200 extensively, having image stabilisation either on the body or the lens or both, for low-light photography, is extremely important for a camera with APS-C sized sensor, that is, if you do not want to carry around a tripod. All sensors, including APS-C, have improved tremendously over the last 10 years both in their low-light capability and dynamic range. But, still, the APS-C sensors have their limitations when it comes to low light. I pushed my D7200 to its limits, using very very good full-frame lenses, and I have very steady hands even at my age (61 years). But this ultimately has pushed me to full frame (read my post above).

The considerations become extremely interesting because both the Sony A6600 and the Fujifilm X-T3 are not cheap. In fact, they are priced just below some of the current full-frame cameras (Fuji does not have full-frame, but they have even more expensive medium format cameras). The current range of Sony, Nikon and Canon full frame cameras, with all the discounts available today, are well within reach of amateur enthusiasts, and just a bit above the two you are considering.

Let me tell you how I arrived at my decision of getting the Nikon Z6. I have owned Nikon SLRs since 1983. In the middle for some years I used also a Canon DSLR. Obviously I had a Nikon bias. However, from the reviews, in November-December last year, I set my eye firmly on the Sony alpha 7iii, for its excellent AF for fast moving objects, for the low light performance (almost no noise at high ISOs) and for its dynamic range (one can pull out details from very dark areas of the frame). Then I weighed all these plus points against the kind of photography I do and also the assets I already possess (read lenses). I hardly ever shoot fast objects, mostly I do landscapes, portraits and candid photography. The sensors in alpha 7iii and Z6 are basically the same (made by Sony), so the low light and dynamic range capabilities (extremely important for landscape photography) are about the same. In addition, I had already a few good Nikon full frame lenses, some or all of which I still can use with the Z6. The final points that sealed the decision are: 1) the ergonomics (Nikons are among the best in this regard, Sony not so good, Canon and Fuji definitely better than Sony), 2) the in-body-image-stabilisation (IBIS) is also the second best (only after the Panasonics), 3) the new Z-mount having the biggest diameter and the least flange distance (the most future-proof since lenses from all other manufacturers can be adapted to this mount, not the opposite, adapters already available in the market), 4) the quality and the size of the raw image files (I always shoot raw, and the Sony files are much bigger although the sensor size is the same), 5) the quality of the viewfinder and the screen at the back are much better on the Nikon (I have poor eyesight), 6) the viewfinder on the Z6 protruding out of the back of the camera so that my nose does not touch the back screen, not so much on the Sony, and finally 7) Nikon build quality and full weather sealing (Sony is not even close) that the Z6 comes with. There is one more point, and that is about the video. The Z6 has the best video (including wonderful AF and absolutely silent with the Z-mount lenses, and Raw capability) in this group. But this was not a big point for me, since I am mostly a stills shooter, but the Z6 is actually encouraging me to go out and shoot a few videos as well. In addition, the Z6 remembers the stills or video settings when one switches from one mode to the other by just one press of a button, the Sony does not do that.

I am sure, I am biased towards Nikon, since I am a long time owner of the brand. But for whatever it is worth, I am sharing my decision making process just to illustrate which considerations went through my mind. In the end, price wise it worked out wonderfully well. I got very very good discounts on the whole deal. I believe the Z6+Z-mount 50mm 1.8 S lens is the best value in its price range at the moment, if you are not much into shooting fast motion. In any case, Nikon has improved its fast motion AF quite a bit since launch through firmware upgrades.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vibbs (Post 4818133)
People who are familiar with mirrorless world, how are the lens ecosystems for both Fujifilm and Sony?

The lens ecosystem is good for both brands, but as people have already said, for APS-C, Fuji has more in quantity and quality. Sony has quite a few excellent lenses of their own, but for the full frame. In addition, if you go for a Sony full frame, Tamron is making really high quality 'affordable' lenses for the Sony E-mount. BTW, full frame lenses can always be used in an APS-C body. They are generally more expensive, but have better build, better quality and on APS-C body some of their corner softnesses are hidden. I used a few full frame lenses on my D7200 body with very good result.


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