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-   -   Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras (https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/gadgets-computers-software/93694-mirrorless-evil-cameras-51.html)

Samurai 21st January 2013 16:12

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ajay_satpute (Post 3020782)
OM-D EM5 is out of budget, so it could mostly be Canon EOS-M. But, after reading the views here, I am thinking again. I am not impressed by the Nikon V1 and J1. I think they are overpriced for what they offer.

Checkout E-PL5... same sensor as OM-D, improved IQ.

http://www.43rumors.com/dxomark-test...gible-1-point/

ajay_satpute 21st January 2013 16:26

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai (Post 3020800)
Checkout E-PL5... same sensor as OM-D, improved IQ.

http://www.43rumors.com/dxomark-test...gible-1-point/

WOW! Thanks for the link.

The E-PL5 with the following lenses is @ 50k at Camshot.in.

Olympus E-PL5 Mirrorless Digital Camera with M. Zuiko 14 - 42mm f/3.5 - 5.6 II R Lens + ED 40 - 150mm f/4 - 5.6 R Lens. Is that good?

amitk26 21st January 2013 16:35

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
To Olympus users any one tried out bodycap lens ? Any information about availability in India ?
Concept looks very interesting.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...0_Lens_On.html


Quote:

Originally Posted by ajay_satpute (Post 3020782)
OM-D EM5 is out of budget, so it could mostly be Canon EOS-M. But, after reading the views here, I am thinking again.
What say friends?

Try EOS-M in a store first before taking a decision , Good thing about Canon is that they have Image Lounge / Image Square where you can play with a product.

Anyway as per Canon rumors an update is due soon so wait for it if you can.

Canon 7D is different beast after the firmware update last month.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai (Post 3020800)
Checkout E-PL5... same sensor as OM-D, improved IQ.

http://www.43rumors.com/dxomark-test...gible-1-point/

Yes EPL-5 has touch screen which is useful and E-PL5 is one of the smallest of the lot ( lens + body combined)

Samurai 21st January 2013 17:23

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ajay_satpute (Post 3020816)
The E-PL5 with the following lenses is @ 50k at Camshot.in.

Olympus E-PL5 Mirrorless Digital Camera with M. Zuiko 14 - 42mm f/3.5 - 5.6 II R Lens + ED 40 - 150mm f/4 - 5.6 R Lens. Is that good?

That sounds like a good deal, covers you from 28mm to 300mm EFL.

Quote:

Originally Posted by amitk26 (Post 3020831)
To Olympus users any one tried out bodycap lens ? Any information about availability in India ?

Looks like a toy. I always keep a lens mounted on the body, this is of no use for me.

joslicx 21st January 2013 17:44

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amitk26 (Post 3020831)
To Olympus users any one tried out bodycap lens ? Any information about availability in India ?

I asked the camshot.in people and they quoted me Rs.6200 for the bodycap lens. Not worth it for that kind of money. In US it is available for about $65 which is OK.

By the way you talked about the Oly 60mm macro. You can ask camshot people as it is listed on their site http://www.camshot.in

joslicx 21st January 2013 19:21

Re: The DSLR Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amitk26 (Post 3020604)

Mirrorless system today are good for rangefinder like street shooters but if this is not your genere then there is very little you can do about it.

Crux of the story if Sigma 150-500 / Canon 100-400 and Sigma/Canon 10-20 are your most used lenses then still EVIL cameras are not for you.

It works fine if you are 30/50 mm focal length user and shoot people on street.

Why do you say that? I have seen lot of great architecture/portraits/sports/wildlife pics taken with the m4/3 system. It is certainly not limited to street shooting.

Quote:

To me personally OM-D makes no sense as it kills the primary advantage of buying olympus mirrorless that is small form factor. Yes it is a big hit among retro design seekrs just like Fuji X-100 but still I am not convinced yet.

Also while EVF has advantage of WYSIWYG but it looks ghastly specially in fluroscent lights when compared to OVF.

Till now I have found Olympus EP series and Samsung NX XXX series to be best of the lot among non-bulky mirrorless when it comes to holding in hand.
Put a 20mm on the OM-D and you can toss it in your pants pockets and be ready for any street shooting! Admittedly with the kit lens it is not pocketable but there are very capable compact lenses like the leica 25mm or the Olympus 45mm or the Panasonic 35-100 f2.8. You can have a whole kit for every kind of shooting for under 1KG (just take the OM-D, 45mm, 20mm, 9-18mm & Panasonic 45-200mm). Probably birding is the only thing you might not be able to do with this kit. There are pro photographers using OM-D for weddings!

Ultimately the equipment is just means to an end, the end being taking photographs that can look beautiful. And I have no doubt the mirrorless system is no less capable when it comes to taking beautiful photographs (there are so many forums full of beautiful pics taken with MLCs). All other stuff is just pre-conceived notions!!


Quote:

Originally Posted by R2D2 (Post 3020650)
These are MLCs but alternatives alright. The R in the DSLR comes from the Reflex mirror that is missing in the OM-D et al..which is why they are called as such.

Nex series and OM-D are MLCs while Sony Alphas are DSLTs. T = translucent mirror.

Oh yes I do know that :) I meant more from IQ perspective. Cameras like Nex-6/7, OM-D, Fuji Pro1 etc can match crop sensor DSLRs in IQ performance.

amitk26 22nd January 2013 13:52

Re: The DSLR Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by joslicx (Post 3021011)
Why do you say that? I have seen lot of great architecture/portraits/sports/wildlife pics taken with the m4/3 system. It is certainly not limited to street shooting.

I specifically mentioned UWA only UWA in micro 4/3 today is Olympus 7-14
and at 1800$ US price it is out of my range.

So will stick to DSLR with affordable 10-20 I have , If I have to spare 1800$ probably moving to full frame is better solution.

UWA is addictive try it sometime , here you want distortions and want to use them creatively and each mm at wider end gives you around 4 degree of angle of view.
Quote:

Originally Posted by joslicx (Post 3021011)
Put a 20mm on the OM-D and you can toss it in your pants pockets and be ready for any street shooting! Admittedly with the kit lens it is not pocketable but there are very capable compact lenses like the leica 25mm

Fully agree and I already stated that EVIL are good for street shooting but I simply don't shoot people on streets. Frankly there is a whole industry in India around shooting random bearded guys, Sadhus or wrinkled faces/poor kids in shabby neighbourhood but that does not facinate me much.
Quote:

Originally Posted by joslicx (Post 3021011)
And I have no doubt the mirrorless system is no less capable when it comes to taking beautiful photographs (there are so many forums full of beautiful pics taken with MLCs). All other stuff is just pre-conceived notions!!

Well true but extolling the virtues which do not exist is also pre-conceived notion.
I do have a mirrorless but simply as of now it does not fit in some of my most frequntly used use cases. Else I am not stupid enough to buy something whcih is obviously good

I am no masocist to punish myself with weight but to thnk of it carrying a 480gm of Sigma 10-20 with 486 grams of body is doable and better then spending 1800$ on Olympus 7-14 without warranty in India personally to me.

Similarly I see no perticular reason to dump my 100mm F2.8 USM lens in favor of anything from Olympus / Panasonic. I am yet to find someone who gives a definative review that Olympus 60 F2.8 is better or faster then 100mm F2.8 so unless I can try it out myself and compare I have no perticular enthusiasm to do that either. Birding is already open and shut case

If some day I find affordable lenses to replace my existing lens in with same IQ may be that day I will think to dump Canon but till that point thanks but no thanks , mirrorless will remain a good 2nd companion in my kit.

joslicx 22nd January 2013 15:09

Re: The DSLR Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amitk26 (Post 3021725)
I specifically mentioned UWA only UWA in micro 4/3 today is Olympus 7-14
and at 1800$ US price it is out of my range.
.

amit bhai your entire post screams specialist/specific need. If you read my earlier posts, I am not at all against going for a DSLR. I was evaluating one for myself last year.

Mirrorless might not suit your needs but it does and can suit needs of pretty much most of the budding photographers out there. That was the whole point. So any confused soul looking at buying a DSLR should look at mirrorless system as well as it can serve his or her purpose. Those who know what they want, would anyway buy what they know they should buy.

Samurai 22nd January 2013 15:33

Re: The DSLR Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amitk26 (Post 3021725)
I specifically mentioned UWA only UWA in micro 4/3 today is Olympus 7-14
and at 1800$ US price it is out of my range.

Won't m.zuiko 9-18mm work for you? It is a DPreview silver award winner. It is 1/3 the price of 7-14mm.

SPARKled 22nd January 2013 15:43

Re: The DSLR Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amitk26 (Post 3021725)
I specifically mentioned UWA only UWA in micro 4/3 today is Olympus 7-14
and at 1800$ US price it is out of my range.

So will stick to DSLR with affordable 10-20 I have , If I have to spare 1800$ probably moving to full frame is better solution.

UWA is addictive try it sometime , here you want distortions and want to use them creatively and each mm at wider end gives you around 4 degree of angle of view.

Fully agree and I already stated that EVIL are good for street shooting but I simply don't shoot people on streets. Frankly there is a whole industry in India around shooting random bearded guys, Sadhus or wrinkled faces/poor kids in shabby neighbourhood but that does not facinate me much.

I am no masocist to punish myself with weight but to thnk of it carrying a 480gm of Sigma 10-20 with 486 grams of body is doable and better then spending 1800$ on Olympus 7-14 without warranty in India personally to me.

Similarly I see no perticular reason to dump my 100mm F2.8 USM lens in favor of anything from Olympus / Panasonic. I am yet to find someone who gives a definative review that Olympus 60 F2.8 is better or faster then 100mm F2.8 so unless I can try it out myself and compare I have no perticular enthusiasm to do that either. Birding is already open and shut case

If some day I find affordable lenses to replace my existing lens in with same IQ may be that day I will think to dump Canon but till that point thanks but no thanks , mirrorless will remain a good 2nd companion in my kit.

Sorry if I am nitpicking, but the Panasonic 7-14 is the lens for the m4/3 mount and it is only for about $888 with quality that is arguably as good or worse than the Oly 7-14 with maybe only a slight edge to the Oly. The panasonic 7-14 will be wider than the Sigma 10-20 that you currently own so really there is no comparison here.

I personally have a huge problem in controlling DOF using my Tamron 90mm for macros so am serioulsy thinking of getting either the pana leica 45 or the Oly 60 considering the greater DOF I will potentially get with these lenses. Also live view is a big bonus that I dont currently have on my DSLR.

For all practical purposes except wildlife or bird photography, high resolution print photography and very high ISO or shallow DOF work, EVIL pretty much has almost every area covered with lenses as good or better than those available for DSLR systems.

R2D2 22nd January 2013 15:58

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
For anyone considering the Canon EOS M here's KR's review.

http://kenrockwell.com/canon/eos-m/m.htm

Of course, KR is self opinionated (as he should be being a reviewer) and does fly off the handle sometimes but the man is brutally honest in a funny sort of way. Make your own decisions before you buy into this MLC system. I like his reviews coz some of his comments make me laugh.

In a nutshell, KR says while the M's focus system is poor the IQ is good, as good as the crop sensor Canon DSLRs.

PS: On a slightly different topic. This combination is interesting and rather amusing considering the size differences - compact v/s humongous. The Nikon V1 with the FT1 adapter + a 600mm F/4. Not bad for a slug of a camera, wish it had reasonable prices and it would interest me.
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3119319

PPS: Maybe I'll wait for the V2 to debut in India. ;-)

amitk26 22nd January 2013 16:09

Re: The DSLR Thread
 
Thanks sparkled Panasonic 7-14 looks like a good option though pricer then Sigma.
I will keep this in mind if I find someone returning from US and I decide to go deeper in Micro 4/3

@Samurai : No Zuiko 9-18 is not the same there is about 8 degree difference in angle of view. Also I do not know how many agree to this here but no distortion at wide end is not necessarily good. Perspective distortion at wide end makes UWA pictures useful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by joslicx (Post 3021791)
Mirrorless might not suit your needs but it does and can suit needs of pretty much most of the budding photographers out there. That was the whole point. So any confused soul looking at buying a DSLR should look at mirrorless system as well as it can serve his or her purpose. Those who know what they want, would anyway buy what they know they should buy.

Exactly this is what I wrote in my opening post on this topic please scroll back and check, Just other way round that those getting advices to go for mirrorless must look at DSLR as well :D so happily we are on same page.


So as a conclusion new buyers must read up evaluate the needs and first try and then buy.

EDIT : Canon Rumor says EOS-M with viewfinder is on horizon.
http://www.petapixel.com/2012/12/04/...ate-next-year/

Samurai 22nd January 2013 16:40

Re: The DSLR Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by amitk26 (Post 3021875)
Also I do not know how many agree to this here but no distortion at wide end is not necessarily good. Perspective distortion at wide end makes UWA pictures useful.

But there is nice distortion with 9-18mm.



See more here: http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/4x4-ex...te-report.html

JMaruru 23rd January 2013 23:36

Re: Sigma 19mm f/2.8 EX DN Lens and 30mm f/2.8 EX DN Lens Kit
 
Sigma 19mm and 30mm is available for $199/- in BnH. I am considering them for my nex-5n. How are these lens for portrait/street photography? It seems they do not have image stabilization. Is this a deal breaker? What are the pros n cons of these lens?

Please advise! please:

joe1980 24th January 2013 00:05

Re: Sigma 19mm f/2.8 EX DN Lens and 30mm f/2.8 EX DN Lens Kit
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JMaruru (Post 3023239)
Sigma 19mm and 30mm is available for $199/- in BnH. I am considering them for my nex-5n. How are these lens for portrait/street photography? It seems they do not have image stabilization. Is this a deal breaker? What are the pros n cons of these lens?

Please advise! please:

I'm not sure about the 19mm but the 30mm is worth the buy. I have the 30mm slammed on my NEX 6 all the time. I simply love the IQ. It does not have image stabilization but you would not realize that it hasn't got one. I would recommend to go for this deal.


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