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-   -   Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras (https://www.team-bhp.com/forum/gadgets-computers-software/93694-mirrorless-evil-cameras-7.html)

alpha1 17th January 2011 15:07

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
O-ve
Its all matter of semantics.

When you say something is DSLR - do you give importance to the term DSLR because of the fact it has mirror and pentaprism?

Or is it because it has interchangeable lens, large sensor size, as well as offers usable manual controls.

Mirror and pentaprism is a absolutely redundant technology in the digital era. The only reason it is not being phased out is because of certain limitations in the "EVIL" config viz. focusing speed and Canon + Nikon legacy.

Why do you need to see through a prism to know the view through a lens, when the digital technology allows you to see something a step better - actual image forming on the sensor.

typeOnegative 17th January 2011 18:05

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alpha1 (Post 2212136)
O-ve
Its all matter of semantics.

True.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alpha1 (Post 2212136)
When you say something is DSLR - do you give importance to the term DSLR because of the fact it has mirror and pentaprism?

Yes. And it should be 'pentaprism / pentamirror'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alpha1 (Post 2212136)
Or is it because it has interchangeable lens, large sensor size, as well as offers usable manual controls.

No. Because there have been and may still be some fixed lens DSLRs. I have a super zoom (HS10) that gives me phenomenal manual control. Making sensor size a subjective aspect, should I go about calling my camera a DSLR? It even looks like one. Heh heh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by alpha1 (Post 2212136)
Mirror and pentaprism is a absolutely redundant technology in the digital era. The only reason it is not being phased out is because of certain limitations in the "EVIL" config viz. focusing speed and Canon + Nikon legacy.

Agreed to a point. However, if one cannot phase out an older technology because of the limitations of a newer one, then how is the older technology redundant?

Quote:

Originally Posted by alpha1 (Post 2212136)
Why do you need to see through a prism to know the view through a lens, when the digital technology allows you to see something a step better - actual image forming on the sensor.

How does this count in the discussion? Anyway,

The EVF on an EVIL camera always will have some limitations. For one it is not true rendering and secondly there is a bit of lag always. Of course advancements will perfect this over time. For me the biggest sore point about the EVF is that I am too used to composing with the camera held closely to my face. And the current crop of accessorized EVFs are too flimsy for me. The fact is that a DSLR is a DSLR and an EVIL camera is an EVIL camera. On one hand we call people who do not know enough about cars ignorant aam janta and on the other hand we are perpetuating similar ignorance in another field even though we know better. :D

I am not denigrating/criticizing the EVIL camera, I am only stating that it is not a DSLR. And I may buy one too if I am convinced that it helps me. I think that both technologies may co-exist for a while and one may die-off depending on market forces.

clevermax 17th January 2011 18:42

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by alpha1 (Post 2212136)
O-ve
When you say something is DSLR - do you give importance to the term DSLR because of the fact it has mirror and pentaprism?


Quote:

Originally Posted by typeOnegative (Post 2212384)
Yes. And it should be 'pentaprism / pentamirror'.
.

There is one more type to be added in this category. DSLT Cameras. Namely Sony A-33 and A-55 cameras. There is no mirror or prism but still it is equal to a DSLR.

Attachment 484809

Samurai 17th January 2011 18:58

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by clevermax (Post 2212432)
There is no mirror or prism but still it is equal to a DSLR.

There is a mirror, which reflect only part of the light upwards.

typeOnegative 17th January 2011 19:00

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by clevermax (Post 2212432)
There is one more type to be added in this category. DSLT Cameras. Namely Sony A-33 and A-55 cameras. There is no mirror or prism but still it is equal to a DSLR.

Absolutely, though there is a mirror I think. Read a review of the SLT A-55 on DP Review a while back. The rated shooting speed is 10fps I think, which is phenomenal.

Edit: I see that Samurai has beaten me to it. :)

clevermax 17th January 2011 21:17

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai (Post 2212445)
There is a mirror, which reflect only part of the light upwards.

Quote:

Originally Posted by typeOnegative (Post 2212447)
Absolutely, though there is a mirror I think. Read a review of the SLT A-55 on DP Review a while back. The rated shooting speed is 10fps I think, which is phenomenal.

Edit: I see that Samurai has beaten me to it. :)

It cannot be called a mirror... a translucent reflecting surface which reflects only a small part of the light hit on it..Mirror or not, the major difference is that it stays there always and there is no slapping at all.

Yes; the fps of A55 is amazing.

rajb3125 18th January 2011 04:19

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai (Post 2209715)
I feel it is time some of the older terms are put out to pasture.

In photography/image capability, EVIL cameras are in the same league as dSLRs. When Sankar said it is a dSLR and not a P&S, he was referring to ability, and not about the reflex mirror. Heck, how many dSLR users these days know anything about the mirror, or whether it is pentamirror or pentaprism they have in their camera?

EVIL is the successor of dSLR, just like dSLR was the successor of SLR.

EVIL cameras are not a replacement, they were a Niche market which developed further.

So far I am both glad and angry over EVIL cameras but as time passes its just making me happier.

Reason being, every person who just wants happy snaps and buys a DSLR thinks of himself as PRO and expect samer privilages. EVIL cameras are coming down in prices which is great, as it will put people away from DSLR's and designers can go back to REAL developments.

typeOnegative 18th January 2011 05:48

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by clevermax (Post 2212591)
It cannot be called a mirror... a translucent reflecting surface which reflects only a small part of the light hit on it..Mirror or not, the major difference is that it stays there always and there is no slapping at all.

Yes; the fps of A55 is amazing.

You are absolutely spot on about the no slapping bit - one reason for those phenomenal shooting speeds. However, the light through the lens is still being reflected upwards to the eyepiece which makes the A55 a DSLR. :)

P.S. Do you know where we can get one in India?

Samurai 18th January 2011 08:45

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by rajb3125 (Post 2212782)
EVIL cameras are not a replacement, they were a Niche market which developed further.

That's what they said when first dSLRs came around, that digital will never replace film.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rajb3125 (Post 2212782)
So far I am both glad and angry over EVIL cameras but as time passes its just making me happier.

Reason being, every person who just wants happy snaps and buys a DSLR thinks of himself as PRO and expect samer privilages.

I have owned 2 film SLRs and still own two dSLRs. I guess now I have made you happy by buying the E-PL1.:)

Anyway, a shot from the E-PL1 today morning. Shot from the home terrace.

Attachment 484974

clevermax 18th January 2011 09:12

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by typeOnegative (Post 2212789)
You are absolutely spot on about the no slapping bit - one reason for those phenomenal shooting speeds. However, the light through the lens is still being reflected upwards to the eyepiece which makes the A55 a DSLR. :)

P.S. Do you know where we can get one in India?

Yes, I agree. This is also in the league of DSLRs but with a different way of bringing the view to the eye piece.

I don't know whether this is available in India as of now, but you can inquire about it in any Sony world shops.. I have seen only Alpha 2xx and 3xx cameras sitting in camera shops here in my town.

rajb3125 18th January 2011 09:38

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai (Post 2212827)
That's what they said when first dSLRs came around, that digital will never replace film.

Well have you heard of impossible-project ?

BTW i still keep Trix400, Velvia50 and Ektar100 in the fridge ;) that reminds me, i gotta order more of velvia and ektar.

Film will NEVER be replaced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai (Post 2212827)
I have owned 2 film SLRs and still own two dSLRs. I guess now I have made you happy by buying the E-PL1.:)

Anyway, a shot from the E-PL1 today morning. Shot from the home terrace.

Attachment 484974

So you bought your DSLR for happy snaps but pretend to be a PRO ??

Samurai 18th January 2011 11:07

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rajb3125 (Post 2212856)
BTW i still keep Trix400, Velvia50 and Ektar100 in the fridge ;) that reminds me, i gotta order more of velvia and ektar.

Film will NEVER be replaced.

I understand the sentiment, I drive a Jeep that was WW-II design. But I won't claim it is superior to modern cars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rajb3125 (Post 2212856)
So you bought your DSLR for happy snaps but pretend to be a PRO ??

As much as I like to pretend to be a PRO, that has never succeeded for one simple reason. I don't own either Canon or Nikon gear, all I have is a pair of lowly Olympus E-Series dSLRs.:Frustrati That instantly betrays me as the perennial amateur I am. {wiping tears}

Therefore, I have stopped any attempts at pretensions. Now that I move around with the tiny E-PL1, my conscious is clear, peace at last. In fact, I encourage more pretenders to stop pretending, and join the EVIL club.

typeOnegative 18th January 2011 11:25

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
@clevermax, in Mumbai I have never seen a Sony DSLR. I think I will struggle to see an A55.

@Samurai, lovely candour. :) Do you think a beginner like me will be happy with an Olympus system.

P.S. I like to be different, but I am scared that Olympus will not continue supporting DSLRs.

rajb3125 18th January 2011 12:21

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai (Post 2212965)
I understand the sentiment, I drive a Jeep that was WW-II design. But I won't claim it is superior to modern cars.

Sorry to be rude but FILM being still used has nothing to do with sentiments or age. Fact is, yes i keep film with me and yes i use it, but its not the sentiments, its the fact that my film slr will cost $20 to replace and i wont hesitate to use it anywhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samurai (Post 2212965)
As much as I like to pretend to be a PRO, that has never succeeded for one simple reason. I don't own either Canon or Nikon gear, all I have is a pair of lowly Olympus E-Series dSLRs.:Frustrati That instantly betrays me as the perennial amateur I am. {wiping tears}

Therefore, I have stopped any attempts at pretensions. Now that I move around with the tiny E-PL1, my conscious is clear, peace at last. In fact, I encourage more pretenders to stop pretending, and join the EVIL club.

Pros dont depend on Canon or Nikon only, I know a pro who shoots Pentax and a pro who shoots Canon + Sony and none of them get free gear from any company.

Problem is people pretending to be pros and coming in the way of others. The ONLY good thing that can come out of EVIL cameras is, that these kind of consumers start going after EVIL cameras and making it easier on others.

Samurai 18th January 2011 12:27

re: Mirrorless or EVIL Cameras
 
You are right, this is no time to start getting into Olympus dSLRs. Hard to resell them later, that is why I am stuck with all my old gear.

If you want to buy only dSLR at this stage, go ahead and buy one of the pretender cameras, popularly known as Canikon entry level cameras,:) easy to resell. After a while, you'll be able to figure out your exact photography needs.


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