[herculesksp]

Originally Posted by Loud

I agree to your comments to some extent. But, an AT Car is meant to be driven sedately, with a light foot on the A pedal.

And why is that? Probably you meant that an AT can mostly only be driven sedately. There is no rule that an AT should be driven sedately. No GT owner will agree to you on that. Actually they should listen to you on this, for it is too easy to get carried away on the GT.

Originally Posted by Loud

The enthusiasts would prefer a free-revving engine mated to a manual transmission (Say, the iVTEC with MT).

Agreed, and these enthusiasts should try the GT.

Originally Posted by Loud

As far as turbo lag is considered, the Liva (considered here) is also petrol and there is no lag. However, the joy when turbo spools up is worth a mention!

Hmmm.... the Liva does have the advantage there of a great engine without any concerns of turbo lag. No matter how small it is on the Polo, it is still there, of couse.

Originally Posted by Loud

The GT being a hatch has higher Power to Weight ratio, but I will not be able to swallow 'Hot Hatch' and 'AT' together.

And you have driven the car? :-)

Originally Posted by Loud

The real fun is in redlining an enthusiast car, seeing its spirits and taking it to the extremes. The real fun is in taking a car to its limits and not touching triple digit speeds at the other side of the speedometer. I consider the 6L Swift to be an enthusiast car. Reason: Handling and Most importantly FTD factor. The City iVTEC: An enthusiast car. Though the newer versions are less chuck-able about corners.

And you are saying this after having driven this car?

The DSG in Sports mode can redline at such a dark shade of red, that it will put manual enthusiasts to shame.

Originally Posted by oxyzen

Dont tell me you have not tried the Vento Diesel or even the Figo/Micra for that matter.

Are we talking about the Figo 1.2? And we are still talking about performance, are we?
The Vento, I have not driven, no.

Originally Posted by oxyzen

Liva has nothing to showoff. The dated body, the T badge, The pathetic interiors. None of any is worth showing off.

I meant showing off after modding... since people were of the opinion that the Liva has better mod potential, then you can only show it off by doing body kit updates. The stock interiors are of course terrible and there is not much chance you can make it any better.

[shreyan_k10]

Originally Posted by dkaile

The brain says Toyota. But the Liva just doesn't appeal to the eye which is one of the crucial aspect for me in ownership. No matter how good the car performs, a ugly duckling is a ugly duckling. I also don't like the cost cutting measures especially when we are talking a 'hot' hatch comparo.

The 7DSG on the VW is cutting edge (though I would have preferred a 6 speed manual over this any day) and the TSI's are one the best motors from VW bandwagon. After having driven the 1.8 TSI extensively (which I feel is the best sub 2L petrol motor in India, period), the heart goes with the TSI VW. Also the clean lines of the Polo design seal the deal for me.

It's a heart vs head thing. If you are concerned with the cost of ownership and the reliability factors, then the Liva would be perfect, otherwise it's the Polo any day, at least that's what I feel.

[Loud]

Originally Posted by herculesksp

And why is that? Probably you meant that an AT can mostly only be driven sedately. There is no rule that an AT should be driven sedately. No GT owner will agree to you on that. Actually they should listen to you on this, for it is too easy to get carried away on the GT..

I meant that AT (Sorry I haven't driven the Polo) are meant to be driven sedately, i.e. even when you floor the metal, nothing will increase except noise. When this is compared to a MT, just downshift and floor the pedal and you are pushed back! Let us say, a MT car is much fun to drive.

Originally Posted by herculesksp

Agreed, and these enthusiasts should try the GT..

I agree with you. I have seen enthusiasts buying the GT (a friend of mine has booked GT after selling his Old Swift). But, 9 Lacs is just too much for a hatchback. The Swift ZXi would be a better bet. Power is not everything. IMO Even a Swift ZXi with performance mods, a body kit and wider tyres would be equally FTD as the GT TSI, if not more. Both Swift and Polo have great mod potential, not so with the Liva.

Originally Posted by herculesksp

Hmmm.... the Liva does have the advantage there of a great engine without any concerns of turbo lag. No matter how small it is on the Polo, it is still there, of couse..

Even the Diesel engine of the Liva does not have Turbo lag. But, IMHO, enthusiasts prefer this, the boost you get after 2k rpms. Linear delivery is just boring!

Originally Posted by herculesksp

And you have driven the car? :-).

Nope. Not yet. But, I will try to have a TD ASAP.

Originally Posted by herculesksp

And you are saying this after having driven this car?.

Originally Posted by herculesksp

The DSG in Sports mode can redline at such a dark shade of red, that it will put manual enthusiasts to shame..

Let me have a TD of it and then decide.

I have opted for Liva because of its reliability (Though I myself own a Skoda). At 7.99 Lacs , the GT doesn't make any sense to me. (Sorry if I was harsh. Just my personal views.) A few bucks more and you can get a more practical sedan.

BTW A question, does VW cover the Transmission under warranty?

Cheers!

[mango_pal]

Originally Posted by Loud

I meant that AT (Sorry I haven't driven the Polo) are meant to be driven sedately, i.e. even when you floor the metal, nothing will increase except noise. When this is compared to a MT, just downshift and floor the pedal and you are pushed back! Let us say, a MT car is much fun to drive.

That's true for old torque convertors. DSG transmissions don't face a loss in power. Even most of the newer torque converter GB's don't face this problem. (look at the ZF 8-speed box which is used throughout the BMW range, Rolls Royce, Jaguar).

I agree with you. I have seen enthusiasts buying the GT (a friend of mine has booked GT after selling his Old Swift). But, 9 Lacs is just too much for a hatchback. The Swift ZXi would be a better bet. Power is not everything. IMO Even a Swift ZXi with performance mods, a body kit and wider tyres would be equally FTD as the GT TSI, if not more. Both Swift and Polo have great mod potential, not so with the Liva.

9 lakhs is not too much for a hatch which offers as much tech as the Polo. Even the i20 diesel costs 9.5. The EcoSport which is dimension wise, a hatchback costs over 10 for the top end EcoBoost.
In 2002 the OHC vtec which had no features at all cost over 9 lakhs!

Even the Diesel engine of the Liva does not have Turbo lag. But, IMHO, enthusiasts prefer this, the boost you get after 2k rpms. Linear delivery is just boring!

Are you saying that the 70hp Diesel Liva should be a hot hatch? Lol.

Nope. Not yet. But, I will try to have a TD ASAP.

Please do. It will change your perspective completely.

BTW A question, does VW cover the Transmission under warranty?

Yes, the transmission comes under the 2 year unlimited kilometer warranty.

[Samba]

Originally Posted by mango_pal

Personally though, I don't think that plonking a larger engine into a smaller car makes it a hot hatch. It has zero sportiness, the steering wheel is like as light as fly and it only outputs 90 horsepower. By that logic even the Honda Brio (90bhp) the swift (87 bhp) should make it to the shortlist of hot hatches!
The only thing that they have done to make the Etios "hot" besides plonk a standard engine in it was add a body kit and the letters "TRD". It only gives the Etios the perception of being a hot hatch.

But i guess the larger engine makes a difference. At higher speeds or in hilly regions the benefit of the extra 300cc makes the engine less strained. Brio makes a power to weight ratio of 91, the swift makes around 88. On the other hand the Liva makes it around 96.2 which is backed up by the 132Nm torque which is far more than the Brio(109Nm) and the Swift.(114Nm). This makes the Liva a bit different from the swift and Brio.

Now on the steering part i completely agree with you. This steering is not for enthusiasts, plus the basic interior is a let down too.

[Ford5]

The plastic in the liva forces me to go in favour of the polo.

[mango_pal]

Originally Posted by Samba

This makes the Liva a bit different from the swift and Brio.

Now on the steering part i completely agree with you. This steering is not for enthusiasts, plus the basic interior is a let down too.

Is that little bit even enough to classify the Liva TRD as a hot hatch? 130nm is peanuts as well! Especially when its available at 3500+k rpm. My Verna makes 150nm and 102bhp, but if it was a hatchback, it would most definitely not be hot because there is zero driver involvement.
Similarly, if the steering is the biggest part of driver involvement, and if that is as dissociated as helicopters and submarines, then what is the point of even discussing the fact that the Liva is a hot hatch?

People are voting against the Polo because of its after sales service. When we are talking about a car being a hot hatch, it's because of the way it drives, not the way its serviced!

[Loud]

Originally Posted by Samba

But i guess the larger engine makes a difference. At higher speeds or in hilly regions the benefit of the extra 300cc makes the engine less strained. Brio makes a power to weight ratio of 91, the swift makes around 88. On the other hand the Liva makes it around 96.2 which is backed up by the 132Nm torque which is far more than the Brio(109Nm) and the Swift.(114Nm). This makes the Liva a bit different from the swift and Brio.

Engine size doesn't matter as much as Power To Weight ratio does. Brio, i10 1.2 and even the Liva (I don't mean i10/Brio are hot hatches) have 90+ power to weight ratios and can show bigger cars some dust in a drag/sprint. The lighter the vehicle, the quicker the vehicle.

Originally Posted by Samba

Now on the steering part i completely agree with you. This steering is not for enthusiasts, plus the basic interior is a let down too.

I agree.

Originally Posted by mango_pal

That's true for old torque convertors. DSG transmissions don't face a loss in power. Even most of the newer torque converter GB's don't face this problem. (look at the ZF 8-speed box which is used throughout the BMW range, Rolls Royce, Jaguar).

I own a Skoda Rapid AT and with my experience, MTs are easy to control (in the way you want) and AT's are preferred for cruising on expressways (or even driving in B2B traffic, because of the ease of not changing gears). In an AT, flooring the accelerator pedal will not push you back to your seat, it will surely strain the engine. If this situation is faced by some MT car, one downshift and tap on the accelerator can do wonders as compared to AT. Thus, I feel MTs are much preferred by enthusiasts because of the fun and controllability.

Originally Posted by mango_pal

9 lakhs is not too much for a hatch which offers as much tech as the Polo. Even the i20 diesel costs 9.5. The EcoSport which is dimension wise, a hatchback costs over 10 for the top end EcoBoost.

Why is 9 Lakhs not expensive for a hatch?

Rapid AT comes at 8.75 Lacs, segments ahead of Polo and i20.
The Ecosport Ecoboost starts at 7.9 Lacs (same as Polo GT TSI) and goes upto 8.3 Lacs. So, how can it be considered expensive? (Seeing that its Power figures are better than Polo) The Power to Weight is ~97.77 BHP/Ton and Torque to Weight is ~135.13 Nm/Ton. The Polo's 0-100 timings are 9.5 seconds while the Ecosport manages at 11 seconds.
Also, the Diesel AT of Ford Ecosport Titanium is priced at 8.6 Lacs.

And I think you meant i20 Petrol 1.4 Automatic, which is priced almost same as the GT TSI, right?

The i20 is no way an enthusiast car, with its lifeless steering and uninspiring stability. The i20 is loaded with features while the Polo is equally loaded.

i20 (above Polo)

• Auto Wipers
• ECM with reverse sensors and camera
• Blinkers on ORVM
• Auto folding ORVMs
• Leather wrapped steering and gear knob
• All wheel discs
• DRLs

Polo (above i20)

• Rear wash/wipe
• 15" wheels
• DSG Transmission
• Rear Spoiler
• Passenger Airbag

And many other things I don't have any idea about. Both have similar power figures of ~100 BHP (Polo is 103 BHP). The i20 will have higher resale value and equal (if not lesser) maintenance costs.

Comparing Liva with Polo:

The Polo weights ~130 Kgs above Liva TRD. The Polo has 103 BHP Power and the Liva has 90 BHP. Now, finding out the Power to weight ratios of the two, I found that both have equal power. Why? Liva is lighter and thus scores more. GT TSI has a ratio of ~97.63 BHP/Ton while the Liva TRD has a respectable ~97.29 BHP/Ton. So, the Liva and Polo have identical figures but Polo has 175 Nm of torque and the Liva has ~132Nm. Polo's Torque to Weight ratio stands at ~165.8 Nm/Ton while Liva gets a respectable ~142.7 Nm/Ton.
From all this, Polo is better.
But, ownership of a car includes maintenance costs, spare part availability and cost, service network, after sales service and many other things, apart from Power and Torque figures.

Toyota leads in all above aspects when compared to the VW.
Also, I am sure Toyota and Hyundai would get much better resale value than VW.

Originally Posted by mango_pal

Are you saying that the 70hp Diesel Liva should be a hot hatch? Lol.

No. Not at all! I was just mentioning that EVEN Liva diesel does not have turbo lag.

Originally Posted by mango_pal

Please do. It will change your perspective completely.

Sure. My friend's GT TSI (Deep Black) would be delivered tomorrow and I will drive it most probably by Sunday. Let's see.

Originally Posted by mango_pal

Yes, the transmission comes under the 2 year unlimited kilometer warranty.

That's nice. I though the DSG was not covered under warranty. Thanks for clarification.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by Loud

I own a Skoda Rapid AT and with my experience, MTs are easy to control (in the way you want) and AT's are preferred for cruising on expressways (or even driving in B2B traffic, because of the ease of not changing gears). In an AT, flooring the accelerator pedal will not push you back to your seat, it will surely strain the engine. If this situation is faced by some MT car, one downshift and tap on the accelerator can do wonders as compared to AT. Thus, I feel MTs are much preferred by enthusiasts because of the fun and controllability.

OT: This is not quite the case with modern ATs. I have not driven the Rapid AT, but in general (especially with the DSGs) there is not much to differentiate between MT and AT when it comes to drivability, acceleration, fuel efficiency etc. Infact, the said push-you-back-to-seat sensation is quite evident in cars like Polo 1.2 TSI DSG, Laura TDI DSG etc

Originally Posted by Loud

Why is 9 Lakhs not expensive for a hatch?

Rapid AT comes at 8.75 Lacs, segments ahead of Polo and i20.
The Ecosport Ecoboost starts at 7.9 Lacs (same as Polo GT TSI) and goes upto 8.3 Lacs. So, how can it be considered expensive? (Seeing that its Power figures are better than Polo) The Power to Weight is ~97.77 BHP/Ton and Torque to Weight is ~135.13 Nm/Ton. The Polo's 0-100 timings are 9.5 seconds while the Ecosport manages at 11 seconds.
Also, the Diesel AT of Ford Ecosport Titanium is priced at 8.6 Lacs.

Again, this really depends on one’s perception and requirements. For those who feel that a sedan is superior to a similar sized hatchback, your statement holds true. Personally I feel the Rapid AT (in the Ambition trim) is way overpriced when compared to a GT TSI. Yes, the Rapid have a reasonably spacious boot, and better legroom for rear passengers, but that’s pretty much about it. With the GT TSI, you get a modern engine and DSG gearbox, and safety features which are normally reserved for D-segment and above in India.

[Samba]

Originally Posted by mango_pal

Is that little bit even enough to classify the Liva TRD as a hot hatch? 130nm is peanuts as well! Especially when its available at 3500+k rpm. My Verna makes 150nm and 102bhp, but if it was a hatchback, it would most definitely not be hot because there is zero driver involvement.
Similarly, if the steering is the biggest part of driver involvement, and if that is as dissociated as helicopters and submarines, then what is the point of even discussing the fact that the Liva is a hot hatch?

People are voting against the Polo because of its after sales service. When we are talking about a car being a hot hatch, it's because of the way it drives, not the way its serviced!

Here i am not against polo, between polo and Liva i preferred Liva only because of the manual transmission. But still i will wait to take a test drive of the Polo as Herculesksp mentioned its altogether a different experience.

Now coming to Liva currently its the second most powerful hatch back available in the Indian market next to the Polo Tsi. So its considered as hot hatch. About the 132Nm torque if you drive a Brio/swift and a Liva back to back you will definitely feel the difference. As Loud mentioned the power to weight ratio of Liva and Polo are almost similar. That's my point too. The light body weight of the Liva made it fun to drive. Regarding steering feedback its one criteria of being a hot hatch but its not everything. If it had been so then the Figo or the Punto 1.2 should also been considered as hot hatch as they provide the best steering feed back! For being a hot hatch the first criteria should be its engine capabilites followed by suspension, handling/ steering feedback. Am sad to say the Palio GTX 1.6 has been stopped from the production. If it would have been there then the comparison could have been between the polo Tsi and the Palio GTX. As you mention about your verna having 150Nm of torque and 102 Bhp, if it would be a hatch with this specification it would definitely been considered as a hot hatch at least in India. In the current Indian market scenario any hatch producing around 100Bhp is considered as a hot hatch. Now compared to abroad market these are not hot hatches even the Polo Tsi is not. So in future things may change. If cars like Punto Abrath or so are released in India.

Well am too not bothered about Toyota or Volkswagen servicing as that has nothing to do with a car being hot or not. I will bother about servicing only when i am going to buy any of these.

Originally Posted by Loud

Engine size doesn't matter as much as Power To Weight ratio does. Brio, i10 1.2 and even the Liva (I don't mean i10/Brio are hot hatches) have 90+ power to weight ratios and can show bigger cars some dust in a drag/sprint. The lighter the vehicle, the quicker the vehicle.

Yes the fun to drive factor depends on the power to weight ratio and the torque generated by the engine too. Regarding engine size, its comes to the picture for example if you are driving in a steep hilly road or driving at 140+ speeds on these cases a 1.5 ltr engine will be less strained than the 1.2's.

[herculesksp]

Originally Posted by Samba

Yes the fun to drive factor depends on the power to weight ratio and the torque generated by the engine too. Regarding engine size, its comes to the picture for example if you are driving in a steep hilly road or driving at 140+ speeds on these cases a 1.5 ltr engine will be less strained than the 1.2's.

You are on the money, but consider that the Polo has a 7-speed gearbox. Which means lower revs at higher speeds. So the smaller engine is automatically less strained. However I wonder what happens to the power when the engine runs out of turbo-band breath.

In fact you should try a CVT if you are worried about engines feeling strained. The CVT has, theoretically, unlimited gears, so it can keep the engine purring all along. In fact one auto mag reported that the Micra CVT was running at around 1500 revs at triple digit speed on the highway. Beat that MT!.

Originally Posted by Loud

I own a Skoda Rapid AT and with my experience, MTs are easy to control (in the way you want) and AT's are preferred for cruising on expressways (or even driving in B2B traffic, because of the ease of not changing gears). In an AT, flooring the accelerator pedal will not push you back to your seat, it will surely strain the engine. If this situation is faced by some MT car, one downshift and tap on the accelerator can do wonders as compared to AT. Thus, I feel MTs are much preferred by enthusiasts because of the fun and controllability.

In my humble opinion, I just don't see why an AT is preferred for cruising on the expressway as compared to an MT?

In an MT, on an expressway, I would, within the first 10 secs, slot into the highest gear and I stay there as long as I have a clear road ahead. There is no question ever of engaging with the tranny. So I have no bone to pick with an MT on the expressways.

On the other hand, the ATs available currently (unless its a CVT) are terrible for the highways. They are purely city cars suitable for pottering around. This is because the ATs are all 4-speed or 5-speed and they easily run out of breath on the highways at speed.

I see a lot of figures and textual facts but practically things could be much different. I could clearly conclude that you have not driven a Polo AT and in fact you have just mentioned that below as well, so my guess was right.

There are a lot of things that an AT is and an AT isn't. However the discussion in this thread is about a Polo GT and a Liva TRD. These are not your run-of-the-mill cars. I sincerely recommend you to TD these cars before you make any further assumptions about how they drive. You will enjoy yourself irrespective of which are you finally like.

Interiors/Exteriors/After-sales is completely subjective and one can form an opinion irrespective of whether you have seen the car in person or not.

[sivadeep]

The cock pit of Polo in line with its performance just puts the Liva in dust. But there is significant premium for this niche since its an AT too

[Loud]

Drove The VW Polo GT TSI

At around 11 AM on Sunday, my friend called me up to say these few words: ‘Are you coming for a drive to Greater Faridabad in my car?’ and his car? Yes, the recently delivered Polo GT TSI.

He was not particularly looking for an AT car, but Polo changed everything, including the budget, which was increased by a whopping 3 Lacs, just to acquire the GT TSI! This made me even more excited to drive the car and find out what’s so special in it!

At 11:45 AM, I found myself stepping out of my Rapid AT and heading straight to the gleaming Polo GT TSI (Deep Black) standing right in front of me. Man! The way it looked with the smoked head lamps and ‘Estrada’ alloys!

After some time, I was on the passenger seat and my friend was explaining me about ‘Driving the GT TSI’, just like a sales-person in a car dealership. 30 minutes and after some requests and arguments, I was allowed to seat myself on the hot seat of the Polo GT. I cranked up the engine and below are my observations (in points) after driving the car for ~30 kms.

• The car was much more refined and silent than the regular Polo Petrol. The NVH was definitely bearable and the engine roar after 3k RPMs was brilliant upto ~4500 RPMs, where it turned a bit harsh. The gear changes were super smooth and quick, unlike the Rapid AT that I drive.
  
  
• The mileage I got was 15.1 kmpl in D mode with sedate driving, 14.7 kmpl in manual mode, 13.3 kmpl in D mode with spirited driving and 9.6 kmpl in S mode with, you know, highly spirited driving. Overall, it comes to ~13 kmpl, which I feel is okay for a brand new car. I also attempted to check 0-100 time in 11.29 seconds, according to the mobile phone stopwatch.
  
  
• The interiors felt plush, with generous inserts of chrome. A full-black interior trim would have been kept as an option in the Polo AT. The front legroom was nice, but the rear space was a bit cramped and BETTER than the Ritz (to which it is compared). The engine bay was uncluttered and the driver footwell missed a dead pedal, though there was ample space to rest your foot on the left of the brake pedal. Do note that the car had GT TSI sill plates on the front (not illuminated) and steering, gear lever and handbrake was leather wrapped. I would have preferred leather seats also. The HU (one available on highline trim and NOT comfort line trim) was decent and had ample features (in comparison to an OEM unit), but the speakers need to be upgraded.
  
  
• The low end torque is commendable (just like a diesel) and 0-40 sprints were fast. The mid range was also addictive all the way up to ~4000 RPMs, after which the car felt sluggish at triple digit speeds.
  
  
• The handling was at par with, say, the Swift but straight line stability was not adequate. The steering felt light at lower speeds and did NOT turn heavier at higher speeds either. The high speed runs required a steady hand and slightest flick of the hand could make the nose point away from the road. The suspension setup was very good in bad roads (not speed breakers) and the Polo soaked most of the undulations at steady speeds of ~20 kph. This was with only 2 on-board (both seated at the front). The Fiats are said to soak up the undulations better than most cars (I have not driven the Punto/Linea though). The suspension should have been made enthusiast-specific (i.e. Stiffer) as the car tends to tilt to one side on sharp turns, but the body roll is bearable.
  
  
• Wheels are small for a car of this much potential. The tyres are 185 section (Apollo) which are very noisy but provide adequate grip. VW should have provided 16" wheels with 195+ section tyres in the Polo GT TSI (which would be segment first) which would have complimented the engine and transmission. The tyres went out of grip on slightest of sharp U-turns and it turned difficult to gain control.
  
  
• DSG: In the 'D' mode, the car starts moving with slightest accelerator input and upshifts happen at lower RPMs. This mode is good for extracting some mileage out of this car, where there is ample torque available (till ~4000 RPMs) to get you out in overtaking situations. The GT TSI feels very disciplined in this mode and hardly allows you to move to higher RPMs in lower gears. After slotting the gear knob to the passenger side in the 'D' mode, gear changes can be done manually. Push it forward for upshift and back for downshift, which is pretty easy. The MID is very informative and houses a gear indicator (shows the current gear). In manual mode, you can partially change gears but the transmission will change the gears automatically at ~5700 RPMs and does not allow you to redline for a long time in lower gears. In the 'S' mode, the gear changes happen at higher RPMs and would be most preferred by enthusiasts. The upshifts happen at higher RPMs (opposite to D mode) and the car feels more eager-to-push. After 4500 RPMs, the GT TSI felt sluggish and took ~30 seconds to increase the speed by 10 kph (at a high triple digit speed which was very close to the top speed) and the engine felt tortured and went out of breath (a similar feel which comes in the Altis). Overall, I felt the gearbox was excellent and of course, came at a premium. There were different modes ideal for most driving conditions. For relaxed city driving and even highway cruising (at ~90 kph), the D mode was really useful. The manual mode was nice for highway cruising with variable traffic conditions. The S mode, where the car comes alive, is best for an enthusiast and allows you to rev higher than usual.
• The braking was better than the Swift Petrol (without ABS) but was very shocking at high speeds. Rear disc brakes could have been provided to improve the braking capabilities.
  
  
• Sadly, the Polo does not get paddle shifters, like the Honda City AT. Paddle shifters would have proved very helpful in the manual mode.
  
  
• The Polo does not lack behind in the features department, especially safety features. Sadly, except the spoiler and badges, there is no difference in the exterior look of the Polo AT and the regular Polo Highline. VW should have made the SR Body kit standard in the Polo AT, along with some more color options or say, racing stripes!

Here are the comments after doing this drive:

Originally Posted by Loud

When considered according to VFM aspect, the Liva is surely the one to go for. But, considering the interior part quality and looks, the GT TSI is the one to choose, but it comes at a premium of 1.5 Lacs.

I still agree to this comment.

Originally Posted by Loud

Mind says Toyota because Japs are trusted (Honda, Toyota have well-built reputation in our country) and are, most importantly, reliable which the German as well as the DSG are not.

I still agree to this comment. My friend has opted for 2 year warranty and has planned to sell away his car after 2 years, since he would get a better resale value and will not have to face troubles due to malfunction of the DSG box, if anything happens after warranty is over.

Originally Posted by Loud

For me, its the Liva. Why?

• Reliability which the VW and DSG transmission can't ever match.
• Better dynamics and appeal due to the TRD Body Kit.
• 1.5 Lac cheaper and also cheaper to maintain in the long run.
• Better-looking gun-metal alloy wheels look better any day.
• Most affordable petrol hot-hatch.
• Much more spacious rear seat. Overall India-Oriented Hot-hatch.

I still agree to this comment. Except the 4th point: Polo's Estrada wheels are also a treat to look at and go better with the black color.
I would now say: Polo and Liva TRD have good looking alloys, though the gun-metal finish in the Liva looks better than the OEM look of the other.

Originally Posted by Loud

I agree to your comments to some extent. But, an AT Car is meant to be driven sedately, with a light foot on the A pedal.

An AT car, but there are exceptions now. The DSG transmission allows you to drive in a spirited way in the S mode, with a heavy foot also. The D mode allows you to drive in a relaxed way, just like any other AT drives.

Originally Posted by Loud

The enthusiasts would prefer a free-revving engine mated to a manual transmission (Say, the iVTEC with MT).

I still agree to this comment. The manual mode in Polo AT is not truly manual and up-shifts are automatically made at redlines.

Originally Posted by Loud

As far as turbo lag is considered, the Liva (considered here) is also petrol and there is no lag.

The Liva has no turbo lag and the same is the case with the Polo. Torque is nicely spread across the low and mid range.

Originally Posted by Loud

This side of 10 Lacs, you will find many enthusiast cars, with free-revving petrol engines combined with MT and dynamics. Actually the statement should have been : "You will not find a hot hatch this side of 10 Lacs"

Else, there are many sedans or less powerful (but capable) cars with excellent handling abilities, the thing an enthusiast wishes for. It's not about the power, it is about the Power to Weight ratio, which makes less powerful cars like Brio defeat higher capacity cars in a drag. The GT being a hatch has higher Power to Weight ratio, but I will not be able to swallow 'Hot Hatch' and 'AT' together.

I still agree to this statement except the last line. I would say: Liva and Polo both have similar Power-to-weight ratios but the torque to weight ratio is higher in Polo, which makes it much easily drivable and no less than a 1.5 L.

Originally Posted by Loud

The real fun is in redlining an enthusiast car, seeing its spirits and taking it to the extremes. The real fun is in taking a car to its limits and not touching triple digit speeds at the other side of the speedometer. I consider the 6L Swift to be an enthusiast car. Reason: Handling and Most importantly FTD factor. The City iVTEC: An enthusiast car. Though the newer versions are less chuck-able about corners.

I still agree. But, the Polo also allows you to redline (not in lower gears) but the moment when you start showing the wide grin and the exhaust sound gets louder, upshifts are made automatically even in the manual mode. The Polo is also chuck-able around corners but not like the Swift.

Originally Posted by Loud

If it would have been Polo GT TSI MT, I would have opted for it, only if it was priced a lakh lesser, i.e. 7 Lacs. But, at the end of the day, spending 9+ Lacs for a hatchback would be...

I still agree to this statement. In this way, the Polo GT TSI would get more buyers also, who plan to keep their cars for a long term.

Originally Posted by Loud

I meant that AT (Sorry I haven't driven the Polo) are meant to be driven sedately, i.e. even when you floor the metal, nothing will increase except noise. When this is compared to a MT, just downshift and floor the pedal and you are pushed back! Let us say, a MT car is much fun to drive.

MT cars are better FTD than normal AT cars, but DSG is an exception. In the S mode, the car gets punchier as any automatic would get. Yes, you get the pushed-back-to-the-seat feeling as you floor the pedal in S mode.

Originally Posted by Loud

I agree with you. I have seen enthusiasts buying the GT (a friend of mine has booked GT after selling his Old Swift). But, 9 Lacs is just too much for a hatchback. The Swift ZXi would be a better bet. Power is not everything. IMO Even a Swift ZXi with performance mods, a body kit and wider tyres would be equally FTD as the GT TSI, if not more. Both Swift and Polo have great mod potential, not so with the Liva.

I still agree to this statement. The Swift is still the best manual enthusiast car for me!

Originally Posted by Loud

Even the Diesel engine of the Liva does not have Turbo lag. But, IMHO, enthusiasts prefer this, the boost you get after 2k rpms. Linear delivery is just boring!

The Polo AT has a far better torque spread and there is a boost upto 4000 RPMs, more like diesel cars. Power delivery is linear but not boring. The car seems to be eager to go much faster.

Originally Posted by Loud

I have opted for Liva because of its reliability (Though I myself own a Skoda). At 7.99 Lacs , the GT doesn't make any sense to me. (Sorry if I was harsh. Just my personal views.) A few bucks more and you can get a more practical sedan.

I still agree to this statement.

Originally Posted by Loud

Engine size doesn't matter as much as Power To Weight ratio does. Brio, i10 1.2 and even the Liva (I don't mean i10/Brio are hot hatches) have 90+ power to weight ratios and can show bigger cars some dust in a drag/sprint. The lighter the vehicle, the quicker the vehicle.

I still agree to this statement.

Originally Posted by Loud

I own a Skoda Rapid AT and with my experience, MTs are easy to control (in the way you want) and AT's are preferred for cruising on expressways (or even driving in B2B traffic, because of the ease of not changing gears). In an AT, flooring the accelerator pedal will not push you back to your seat, it will surely strain the engine. If this situation is faced by some MT car, one downshift and tap on the accelerator can do wonders as compared to AT. Thus, I feel MTs are much preferred by enthusiasts because of the fun and controllability.

DSG is also drivable like regular ATs in the D mode, where revs are kept low to allow easier overtaking on slightest input of the accelerator. Still, MTs are more FTD and controllable.

Originally Posted by Loud

Rapid AT comes at 8.75 Lacs, segments ahead of Polo and i20.
The Ecosport Ecoboost starts at 7.9 Lacs (same as Polo GT TSI) and goes upto 8.3 Lacs. So, how can it be considered expensive? (Seeing that its Power figures are better than Polo) The Power to Weight is ~97.77 BHP/Ton and Torque to Weight is ~135.13 Nm/Ton. The Polo's 0-100 timings are 9.5 seconds while the Ecosport manages at 11 seconds.
Also, the Diesel AT of Ford Ecosport Titanium is priced at 8.6 Lacs.

I still agree to this statement. The Polo is a bit overpriced, but comes with very much tech, which is not available with other cars. But, some people (including me) would not digest this price tag for a hatchback. I would get the Ecosport Ecoboost instead.

Originally Posted by Loud

The i20 is no way an enthusiast car, with its lifeless steering and uninspiring stability. The i20 is loaded with features while the Polo is equally loaded.

i20 (above Polo)

• Auto Wipers
• ECM with reverse sensors and camera
• Blinkers on ORVM
• Auto folding ORVMs
• Leather wrapped steering and gear knob
• All wheel discs
• DRLs

Polo (above i20)

• Rear wash/wipe
• 15" wheels
• DSG Transmission
• Rear Spoiler
• Passenger Airbag

And many other things I don't have any idea about. Both have similar power figures of ~100 BHP (Polo is 103 BHP). The i20 will have higher resale value and equal (if not lesser) maintenance costs.

I still agree to this statement. Also, the Polo gets reverse parking sensors, no camera though.

Originally Posted by Loud

Comparing Liva with Polo:

The Polo weights ~130 Kgs above Liva TRD. The Polo has 103 BHP Power and the Liva has 90 BHP. Now, finding out the Power to weight ratios of the two, I found that both have equal power. Why? Liva is lighter and thus scores more. GT TSI has a ratio of ~97.63 BHP/Ton while the Liva TRD has a respectable ~97.29 BHP/Ton. So, the Liva and Polo have identical figures but Polo has 175 Nm of torque and the Liva has ~132Nm. Polo's Torque to Weight ratio stands at ~165.8 Nm/Ton while Liva gets a respectable ~142.7 Nm/Ton.
From all this, Polo is better.
But, ownership of a car includes maintenance costs, spare part availability and cost, service network, after sales service and many other things, apart from Power and Torque figures.

I still agree to this statement. The torque available in the Polo and the torque curve is the main thing which makes it ahead in drivability.

Originally Posted by Loud

Toyota leads in all above aspects when compared to the VW.
Also, I am sure Toyota and Hyundai would get much better resale value than VW.

I still agree to this statement.

-----

Any other things to add? Feel free to ask!

[saadat1992]

The heart says POLO, the brain says LIVA!
The Polo's build quality and styling is just years ahead of the little Toyota.
But then, the reliability and the up keep costs do matter. The DSG is prone to failures as we all know & when it comes to maintenance, VW & Toyota are on the extreme ends with VW being on the higher side.
But, i'm a guy who prefers what the brain says. So, Liva TRD is the one for me.

[delta5]

Disclosure: I own a Polo GT TSI.

I voted for Polo GT as in my personal opinion it's as close to a hot hatch we have in India till date. I have always desired European hot-hatches, especially the Veedubs. But the 1.2L 3-cylinder was horrible and did not make any one grin, let alone an enthusiast.
As an enthusiast and a tech geek, I was waiting for the most-hyped and probably affordable EcoBoost engine powered EcoSport. As the wait grew longer and as i badly needed a car thought will keep an eye on GT as well.
When the car was released, I too was disappointed that the brilliant TSI engine didn't come with manual option and yes also with the pricing, but the TD changed my opinion on ATs thanks to the fabulous DSG gearbox. Forgetting the pricing, it came across a practical and safe hatch and will also keep the enthusiast inside you happy.

Now coming to the Etios Liva TRD, I have always admired Toyota and their well engineered cars but lost all respect when they came out with made-for-India Etios and Liva. To me they couldn't have offended us Indians any worse, with terrible design elements and blaring cost-cutting. I have driven a friends' Etios, and yet to drive a Liva TRD.

So my opinion is of only one side!!

Originally Posted by Loud

i20 (above Polo)

• Auto Wipers
• ECM with reverse sensors and camera
• Blinkers on ORVM
• Auto folding ORVMs
• Leather wrapped steering and gear knob
• All wheel discs
• DRLs

Polo (above i20)

• Rear wash/wipe
• 15" wheels
• DSG Transmission
• Rear Spoiler
• Passenger Airbag

Hi Loud,
You really need not justify every statement you have made, to each his own, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Loud

I still agree to this statement. Also, the Polo gets reverse parking sensors, no camera though.

Any other things to add? Feel free to ask!

Please note that the GT TSI also comes with Leather wrapped steering wheel, hand brake and gear selector.