[oxyzen]

If I were to but a new one it would be the Polo. But If I am buying one of these second had 5 years down the line, it will be Toyota without a doubt.

[herculesksp]

TSI all the way. It is just a killer of an engine and a gearbox to boot.

No comparison with anything this side of 10 lakhs, yet.

[AjiGTI]

I have voted for the VW Polo GT because I am a great fan of the clean understated design of VW cars and VW has put in the latest technology under the hood and the gearbox. Though I suspect the reliability of European cars in general and I have owned a couple of Toyota cars in the past with trouble free performance, still went with my heart and voted for GT.

[Samba]

Originally Posted by herculesksp

TSI all the way. It is just a killer of an engine and a gearbox to boot.

No comparison with anything this side of 10 lakhs, yet.

Why not with the Fiat Linea Tjet which is now 7.66 lakhs ex-showroom?

[BlackPearl]

Toyota Liva -
Reasons
1. Manual Gearbox
2. Toyota Reliability
3. Easier/Cheaper to modify an NA engine/headers/exhaust compared to the TSI engine from Volkswagen (IMO)

[herculesksp]

Originally Posted by Samba

Why not with the Fiat Linea Tjet which is now 7.66 lakhs ex-showroom?

The T-Jet engine is decent, however it is just the combination of the TSI engine + the DSG gearbox.

In fact, I would go and say that the Polo GT creds are 60% DSG, 30% TSI, 10% Chassis dynamics. The gearbox is that good.

I have been a Diesel turbo-fan for long and I have always been an manual gearbox advocate. I like engaging with the car in changing gears and such.

After the GT however, my opinion has changed completely. I just can't stand a Diesel (at least in the affordable range - not tried those Beemers) and its Turbo Lag. The GT gets the adrenaline flowing like nothing you have ever seen. The lag was barely perceptible since the gearbox kept the engine revving in the turbo band and power was always at the fingertips.

In fact all the manual gearbox fans and auto bashers should try the DSG. You will never enjoy a car so much with a manual box no matter how refined. And if you want to take control of the car, the tiptronic is always there.

So what if you have to push the lever front and back, rather than doing a 2-click shift? What driving experience are you missing? The brilliant response times of the DSG even in tiptronic is something to die for.

The Liva might be the Android of cars - affordable, easy mod potential, but nothing great to write home about except to show off. But let's be honest, there is always an Apple out there that does something better, and you still want something that is there in that Apple. And the Polo is the Apple of the cars.

PS: I am a die-hard Android (and OSS) fan, I have owned an Android device since the very first one. However I respect Apple for its innovation, but hate it for its closedness.

[deetjohn]

Voted for the GT TSI. I feel it is just a lot more car for the money that you pay. Just pray the DSG and VW service doesn't spoil the experience.

We could have done away with such a thread if there was a GT TSI MT available.

[Loud]

Originally Posted by herculesksp

The T-Jet engine is decent, however it is just the combination of the TSI engine + the DSG gearbox.

In fact, I would go and say that the Polo GT creds are 60% DSG, 30% TSI, 10% Chassis dynamics. The gearbox is that good.

I have been a Diesel turbo-fan for long and I have always been an manual gearbox advocate. I like engaging with the car in changing gears and such.

After the GT however, my opinion has changed completely. I just can't stand a Diesel (at least in the affordable range - not tried those Beemers) and its Turbo Lag. The GT gets the adrenaline flowing like nothing you have ever seen. The lag was barely perceptible since the gearbox kept the engine revving in the turbo band and power was always at the fingertips.

In fact all the manual gearbox fans and auto bashers should try the DSG. You will never enjoy a car so much with a manual box no matter how refined. And if you want to take control of the car, the tiptronic is always there.

So what if you have to push the lever front and back, rather than doing a 2-click shift? What driving experience are you missing? The brilliant response times of the DSG even in tiptronic is something to die for.

The Liva might be the Android of cars - affordable, easy mod potential, but nothing great to write home about except to show off. But let's be honest, there is always an Apple out there that does something better, and you still want something that is there in that Apple. And the Polo is the Apple of the cars.

PS: I am a die-hard Android (and OSS) fan, I have owned an Android device since the very first one. However I respect Apple for its innovation, but hate it for its closedness.

I agree to your comments to some extent. But, an AT Car is meant to be driven sedately, with a light foot on the A pedal. The enthusiasts would prefer a free-revving engine mated to a manual transmission (Say, the iVTEC with MT).
As far as turbo lag is considered, the Liva (considered here) is also petrol and there is no lag. However, the joy when turbo spools up is worth a mention!

This side of 10 Lacs, you will find many enthusiast cars, with free-revving petrol engines combined with MT and dynamics. Actually the statement should have been : "You will not find a hot hatch this side of 10 Lacs"

Else, there are many sedans or less powerful (but capable) cars with excellent handling abilities, the thing an enthusiast wishes for. It's not about the power, it is about the Power to Weight ratio, which makes less powerful cars like Brio defeat higher capacity cars in a drag. The GT being a hatch has higher Power to Weight ratio, but I will not be able to swallow 'Hot Hatch' and 'AT' together.

The real fun is in redlining an enthusiast car, seeing its spirits and taking it to the extremes. The real fun is in taking a car to its limits and not touching triple digit speeds at the other side of the speedometer. I consider the 6L Swift to be an enthusiast car. Reason: Handling and Most importantly FTD factor. The City iVTEC: An enthusiast car. Though the newer versions are less chuck-able about corners.

If it would have been Polo GT TSI MT, I would have opted for it, only if it was priced a lakh lesser, i.e. 7 Lacs. But, at the end of the day, spending 9+ Lacs for a hatchback would be...

PS. I drive an AT too.

[oxyzen]

Originally Posted by herculesksp

The T-Jet engine is decent

The T-Jet is a lot more than just decent.

Originally Posted by herculesksp

After the GT however, my opinion has changed completely. I just can't stand a Diesel (at least in the affordable range - not tried those Beemers) and its Turbo Lag.

Dont tell me you have not tried the Vento Diesel or even the Figo/Micra for that matter.

Originally Posted by herculesksp

The Liva might be the Android of cars - affordable, easy mod potential, but nothing great to write home about except to show off.

Liva has nothing to showoff. The dated body, the T badge, The pathetic interiors. None of any is worth showing off. However, the pun in driving is nonparallel. Most of which is down to its low kerb weight.

Originally Posted by herculesksp

But let's be honest, there is always an Apple out there that does something better, and you still want something that is there in that Apple. And the Polo is the Apple of the cars.

There is no denying Polo GT offers something no one else does. Great looks, Brilliant Engine, Brilliant Transmission, Decent road manners, awesome interior quality for a Hatch. But still at an ex showroom price of 8L it is a tad overpriced. Hell, we bought a Vento Diesel HL at 9L ex showroom. And lets not get into the details how much excise is paid when comparing the two.

[turboverbo]

I would have voted for the Polo GT TSI is it came with a manual transmission. The DSG may be very good in its own right but a hot hatch must have a slick manual transmission. The turbocharger is on a smaller 1.2 l engine, so the larger displacement of the Liva TRD makes up for the absence of a turbocharger. It's also a lightweight car, so the big engine really makes a difference.

[theMAG]

Just to make a relevant stance in this automotive environment, I would go for the Polo TSI if I were in this market currently. I think the Indian market has clearly shifted preference to a contemporary taste - markedly over living with obsolesence like till the recent past. The Polo TSI is as cutting-edge as it comes, while the Liva is as much at the other end of that scale as possible.

[Samba]

Originally Posted by herculesksp

In fact, I would go and say that the Polo GT creds are 60% DSG, 30% TSI, 10% Chassis dynamics. The gearbox is that good.

The GT gets the adrenaline flowing like nothing you have ever seen. The lag was barely perceptible since the gearbox kept the engine revving in the turbo band and power was always at the fingertips.

In fact all the manual gearbox fans and auto bashers should try the DSG. You will never enjoy a car so much with a manual box no matter how refined. And if you want to take control of the car, the tiptronic is always there.

Well after reading your post i will not comment further before i myself take a test drive of the Polo GT TSI. All these days being a driving enthusiast am always a fan of manual shifting be it a two wheeler or a four wheeler.

I remember a time when a 165cc scooter was launched as Kinetic Blaze with automatic transmission and people told its more fun than the geared 150cc bikes but when i test rode it i was disappointed. Well that's altogether a different story i should not compare that over here.
Anyways now am truly looking forward to test drive this car. May be it can change my biased idea that automatics are not for enthusiasts.

[mango_pal]

I had a good chuckle while going through this thread, some of the reasons for choosing the cars are quite funny.

The definition of a hot hatch according to me is a practical, reasonably fast car which offers tremendous value while being fun to drive.
It has two USP's: fun, practical

In terms of practicality, the Polo is ahead of the Liva:

- It offers an excellent DSG transmission;
- Packed with safety features, some of which are a segment first in India;
- Loaded to the gills much like the i20 and the Ford EcoSport
- Solid build quality

The Etios loses out on all of these aspects.
The only practical aspect of the Liva is its after sales service, which is a sour point with Volkswagen.


Fun factor:

- Advantage Polo
1) Excellent Engine (aids low rpm driveability too).
2) Huge torque advantage
3) Mind you, the DSG transmission can be fun
4) Spot on driving position
5) Well calibrated steering with a reasonable amount of feedback

- Advantage Liva
1) Trusty old school manual box

- Neutral aspects
1) Suspension setup is average on both the cars
2) High ground clearance sucks and robs the sex appeal when you're looking at those empty wheel arches. Not to mention affecting the handling.


Value Prospect:

I really see the Polo to offer tremendous value, especially since a large chunk of it is imported. The gearbox is almost cutting edge and the engine is a first.
But what does the Liva offer? Cheap plastics and an AC. For not a lot less dough.

So the Polo in my books is value for money as compared to the cheaper Liva.


Additionally, for after market potential, there is much more (easy, off the shelf) potential with the Polo thus making it a truly hot hatch. Whereas it would be harder to achieve as significant gains with the naturally aspirated Liva.


I'm trying to be as unbiased as I can, as I just booked the TSi

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by mango_pal

I had a good chuckle while going through this thread, some of the reasons for choosing the cars are quite funny.

The definition of a hot hatch according to me is a practical, reasonably fast car which offers tremendous value while being fun to drive.
It has two USP's: fun, practical

So the Polo in my books is value for money as compared to the cheaper Liva.


I'm trying to be as unbiased as I can, as I just booked the TSi

Written well but was it not a bit harsh? I mean the Etios has got a HUGE space advantage over the Polo and there can be no arguing its reliability. Those have GOT to count for something, no?

Factors like the simple, easy to mod naturally aspirated engine vs the zippy new tech loaded 1.2 turbocharged unit, great manual vs really not that bad but more convenient alternative (DSG) can be split both ways. So can the design and styling (except for the interiors, I think we all detest the etios' interior design)

In the end, I don't think it should be easy to state one car as being better than the other in a sort off "logically obvious manner" for instance me and a few others (albeit what seems like a small clan here :P ) have put forth fairly logical reasoning for our 'preference', if we were to buy one.

BTW congratulations on the Polo TSi Love the car and never had any qualms in recommending it to people it is an absolutely well finished product. All it needs is a GTi grille.

[mango_pal]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

Written well but was it not a bit harsh? I mean the Etios has got a HUGE space advantage over the Polo and there can be no arguing its reliability. Those have GOT to count for something, no?

Factors like the simple, easy to mod naturally aspirated engine vs the zippy new tech loaded 1.2 turbocharged unit, great manual vs really not that bad but more convenient alternative (DSG) can be split both ways. So can the design and styling (except for the interiors, I think we all detest the etios' interior design)

I've did state the Etios has better after sales support. The reliability on the other hand of the TSi would only be seen a couple of years down the line. Yes, I know the DQ200 unit has had its problems, but if the problems have been diagnos ied and corrected like VW has said they have, then it should also be a very reliable car.
The interiors in my mind are subjective, while the etios may be 'HUGE' as you put it, the Polo is not exactly small.
It also offers a fair amount of space, can take four and the occasional third wheel. So it doesn't really lose out on space.

I don't think you understood my point about the after market aspect.
I think that the Polo has more after market potential than the Etios. There's a lot more off-the-shelf stuff available for the Polo which ranges from ECU maps to suspension to exhaust systems. This is also because the Polo is available in much more powerful and performance oriented forms.

Even if you take the Toyota Etios races which started last year, the engine was completely stock. The only performance modification was an exhaust and airfilter. Even the ECU was stock.
This year, I think they're introducing TC'ed units but we won't see the light of day in their production counterparts.

In the end, I don't think it should be easy to state one car as being better than the other in a sort off "logically obvious manner" for instance me and a few others (albeit what seems like a small clan here :P ) have put forth fairly logical reasoning for our 'preference', if we were to buy one.

I honestly feel that there are some aspects where the Polo is quantifiably better than the Liva like the value, the Polo offers me state of the art technology at a very justifiable price.
In fact, before the Polo was launched, there was some speculation that it might actually cross the million rupee mark because of the kit level on offer.
This was the only car other than the Amaze with bang on pricing, especially considering that large chunks of the car are imported. (not sure if they are SKD's or CKD's, would be SKD's if the engine-GB is imported as a unit I think).

Yes, you can't quantify aspect like the feel of the car. It may not be easy even for enthusiasts to agree on which car is a clear winner from which you derive maximum driving pleasure.


Personally though, I don't think that plonking a larger engine into a smaller car makes it a hot hatch. It has zero sportiness, the steering wheel is like as light as fly and it only outputs 90 horsepower. By that logic even the Honda Brio (90bhp) the swift (87 bhp) should make it to the shortlist of hot hatches!
The only thing that they have done to make the Etios "hot" besides plonk a standard engine in it was add a body kit and the letters "TRD". It only gives the Etios the perception of being a hot hatch.


And thank you Ishaan, I can't wait for it to come