[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by sourav9385

And then they realized, we can fleece the damn buyers more, if we just reduce some of the features that make our cars such feature laden

Have a look at this thread going on Elite i20 latest features Deletion!

Should help here as the comparison is going on between the two cars.

Elite i20 some features deleted

[tejas08]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Assuming there will be a small price reduction to follow for the missing features

It does not seem that Hyundai will be going for an official price reduction. They might come up with discounts and stuff but no official price reduction.

Originally Posted by aravind.anand

Only only logical explanation is that Jazz did not succeed in kidnapping the i20's customers. So Hyundai is having a heyday minting money from the people already in que for the i20

It's too early to say that. Jazz figures need to be seen for 3-4 months before deciding who is the winner. Sure, Honda will never be able to match the Elite i20's numbers due to the capacity constraint. But if Honda Jazz can manage a decent 4-5K units per month once the sales settles then I think they would have done a good job.

Originally Posted by sourav9385

The way I see it is, Hyundai was running a bit scared, considering the might of Honda & its ability to make amazing cars, a-la the Civic, the City et all.

Thus, the initial announcement regarding the whole "We-too-will-give-the-i20-a-touch-screen!".

Then, Honda came out with the Jazz. And all the reviews said one thing, unanimously.

Toe-to-toe, penny-for-penny, the Jazz did not match the i20 for features & comforts, fancy seats & interior space aside.

Well this is a bit of a judgement call. The way I see it, from an overall package point of view the Jazz edges out the Elite i20. Elite i20 does not offer the safety features as that of the Jazz (except the top variant of Elite i20, eg. only driver side Airbag till Sportz (O) variant).

Of the two, Jazz has Auto Transmission, Elite i20 does not. A big miss from the Hyundai Side.

Your statement about Jazz not matching Elite i20 and the Elite i20 coming out on top in all aspects other than the Fancy Seats and Interior Space is an overstatement.

While the Elite i20 is probably the best diesel in the segment, but the Honda iVTEC engine will definitely come on top out of the two. Also the pricing works in the favour of Elite i20 in terms of the Diesel variants.

Fuel Economy definitely is in the favour of Honda Jazz when it comes to the Diesel Engine.

The whole point of my argument is that from a Car Enthusiast's point of view a majority would agree that the Elite i20 is way better than Jazz (I beg to differ on that though) but from an overall package point of view the Jazz for the regular customers is a good choice.

P.S. - I took a TD of Elite i20 last week. I was definitely impressed with the car but I drive an iVTEC Engine Everyday (Although a 1.5L one). The iVTEC definitely is a beast at high RPMs.

[aravind.anand]

Originally Posted by tejas08

It's too early to say that. Jazz figures need to be seen for 3-4 months before deciding who is the winner. Sure, Honda will never be able to match the Elite i20's numbers due to the capacity constraint. But if Honda Jazz can manage a decent 4-5K units per month once the sales settles then I think they would have done a good job.

P.S. - I took a TD of Elite i20 last week. I was definitely impressed with the car but I drive an iVTEC Engine Everyday (Although a 1.5L one). The iVTEC definitely is a beast at high RPMs.

I sure do think that 4-5K is what the Honda would do at best - capacity constraints or not. But my point is, if Hyundai's permium hatch comes down from it usual numbers of about 10k, to abou 7-8K, then yes, I would agree that the Jazz is eating into the i20' s sales numbers. We need to see if that happens.

And my love for the i-Vtec engines shattered to pieces when I drove the Brio - which I suggested for my brother-in-law. The car was lousy, lazy and definitely did not feel like it had 90 horses. Even at high RPMs!

PS: I drive a Fiesta 1.6 S and have a 1.5 i-Vtec in the garage too. I would vouch for the City's i-Vtec for top end performance, but definitely not the 1.2 i-Vtec.

[prithvibelli]

My question to all the people who said for diesel its Elite i20, but for petrol its the Jazz.

I take it that its the engine that is the main differentiator between the 2 for such a conclusion. I just wanted to know, what is lacking in the Jazz diesel. Is NVH the only concern, or is it something else?

[Crazy_Bean]

Originally Posted by prithvibelli

My question to all the people who said for diesel its Elite i20, but for petrol its the Jazz.

I take it that its the engine that is the main differentiator between the 2 for such a conclusion. I just wanted to know, what is lacking in the Jazz diesel. Is NVH the only concern, or is it something else?

Actaully, I feel Jazz Diesel engine is better than the 1.4 unit on the i20. I know i20 one is much more refined, but the earth dreams is much more hi tech and mind you, it is not easy to build an all aluminium diesel engine. kudos to Honda.

[.anshuman]

Originally Posted by Crazy_Bean

Actaully, I feel Jazz Diesel engine is better than the 1.4 unit on the i20. I know i20 one is much more refined, but the earth dreams is much more hi tech and mind you, it is not easy to build an all aluminium diesel engine. kudos to Honda.

What's more high tech in Earth Dreams that's missing in CRDi? Aluminium is more for the lighter weight than anything else.

Hyundai has a lot more experience in making Diesel engine than Honda. The 1.4 CRDi feels as refined and rev happy as the most of the expensive German cars. Except for excessively tall gearing i find it brilliant.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by Crazy_Bean

Actaully, I feel Jazz Diesel engine is better than the 1.4 unit on the i20. I know i20 one is much more refined, but the earth dreams is much more hi tech and mind you, it is not easy to build an all aluminium diesel engine. kudos to Honda.

Just because it is more hi-tech doesn't really mean it is better in practice the Honda diesel is very crude and noisy while the Hyundai is the exact opposite and is the smoothest, most refined unit of the lot. The Hyundai diesel is also more tractable, welcoming to higher revs and more reliable. I would say it is really no contest between the two as far as engines go. I am no Hyundai fan and am certainly averse to diesel engines but even I have to admit just like many others categorically state, the Hyundai diesels are really good motors

[prithvibelli]

On paper, the power as well as FE figures is on the higher side for the Jazz diesel. Hence my doubt.

Also I am seeing a lot more Honda City iDtecs than Hyundai Vernas here in Bangalore.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by prithvibelli

On paper, the power as well as FE figures is on the higher side for the Jazz diesel. Hence my doubt.

Also I am seeing a lot more Honda City iDtecs than Hyundai Vernas here in Bangalore.

LOL so that's reason enough for your "doubt"? The Hyundai Verna is an aged product with prices having increased beyond the point where it can be seen as value for money. I am a huge Honda fan but having said that, Hyundai diesels are just a LOT better for reasons I have already stated. Absolutely no argument. Drive the two yourself to see which is the better motor Honda diesels are not all that brilliant not just when compared to Hyundai's diesels but even generally when compared to the rest as well; they are the most crude, unrefined, reluctant to rev diesels around in their class in today's day and age

[Crazy_Bean]

Originally Posted by .anshuman

What's more high tech in Earth Dreams that's missing in CRDi? Aluminium is more for the lighter weight than anything else.

Hyundai has a lot more experience in making Diesel engine than Honda. The 1.4 CRDi feels as refined and rev happy as the most of the expensive German cars. Except for excessively tall gearing i find it brilliant.

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

Just because it is more hi-tech doesn't really mean it is better in practice the Honda diesel is very crude and noisy while the Hyundai is the exact opposite and is the smoothest, most refined unit of the lot. The Hyundai diesel is also more tractable, welcoming to higher revs and more reliable. I would say it is really no contest between the two as far as engines go. I am no Hyundai fan and am certainly averse to diesel engines but even I have to admit just like many others categorically state, the Hyundai diesels are really good motors

I might be a noob at this. But my understanding is that generally all aluminium engines are restricted to petrol cars.

Because diesels work under higher pressure, Aluminium is not preferred. Honda found a way around this and built a light aluminium diesel engine, commanding amazing FE figures.

I know its crude and un-refined.

Coming to i20, even if driven sedately, it is not as rewarding in FE terms as the say VW TDi, Shows how advanced the TDi tech is. I have driven the i20 sedately for 50Kms and I could only get 18-19 KMPL whereas I get the same when I drive my passat (170 PS) on the same route. I am pretty sure the Verna's 1.6 diesel on this route would deliver 16-17 at max.

I am not bashing the Hyundai's engine here, and I know its a successful unit.

I just feel if one can surpass the noisy notion of the Jazz, its a better long term engine.

[prithvibelli]

I am looking at these 2 closely for our 2nd car. Will be driven only in the city, mostly for office commuting and for the odd runabout jobs.
My budget is around 9 lakhs OTR. Hence, looking at the Jazz iDtec S variant and Elite i20 Magna variant.

My priorities(in descending order):
1. Ageing (it will be kept for 10+ years, but should still hold specialness even after those many years)
2. FE (absolute must)
3. Reliability (I do not like to visit the ASC, other than for routine servicing, after buying a premium product it should be stress-free)
4. ASS (Maintainence should be low as possible. Toyotas are best for this)
5. Driving dynamics (Easy in the city and it has to be fun to drive, we should not get bored of the car, keeping the time factor in mind)
6. Dog friendly (this is a weird one, i know) and newbie driver friendly (my mom and wife)
7. Resale (Keeping 10 years in mind, it should still fairly hold value)

I dont mind giving a miss for the fancy interiors and features, and hence the lower variants. But power windows and central locking are the absolute must.

Other observations:
Jazz iDtec S - 9 lakhs OTR (Blore)
Elite i20 Magna - 8.75 lakhs OTR (Blore)
The Jazz, gets ABS as well on the S diesel variant.

Please help me choose. Its so frustrating to choose, when your are putting down your hard earned money.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by Crazy_Bean

I might be a noob at this. But my understanding is that generally all aluminium engines are restricted to petrol cars.

Because diesels work under higher pressure, Aluminium is not preferred. Honda found a way around this and built a light aluminium diesel engine, commanding amazing FE figures.

I know its crude and un-refined.

Coming to i20, even if driven sedately, it is not as rewarding in FE terms as the say VW TDi, Shows how advanced the TDi tech is. I have driven the i20 sedately for 50Kms and I could only get 18-19 KMPL whereas I get the same when I drive my passat (170 PS) on the same route. I am pretty sure the Verna's 1.6 diesel on this route would deliver 16-17 at max.

I am not bashing the Hyundai's engine here, and I know its a successful unit.

I just feel if one can surpass the noisy notion of the Jazz, its a better long term engine.

We all understand that it is quite a feat to manufacture a cheap aluminium block diesel unit. However, it doesn't take away from the fact that it isn't really good at anything as such apart from being light. Sure VWs TDi motors are fuel efficient. In city driving however, I haven't really noticed Hyundai diesels to be fuel guzzling motors albeit yes they aren't outright the most efficient (Still, I've achieved 20kmpl with ease out on the highway in my friend's Verna) . At the price point as well, I cannot ignore the fact that Hyundai's motors are the most refined (these are diesels for christ's sake), tractable and free revving all inherent issues of a diesel engine, are conquered.

Where did you come to the conclusion that Honda's diesels are the best in the long term? Using aluminium at that price point itself is a factor that could decrease their life. Besides there are several reports to indicate that they are not as reliable as Hyundai's diesel units.

[.anshuman]

Originally Posted by Crazy_Bean

Because diesels work under higher pressure, Aluminium is not preferred. Honda found a way around this and built a light aluminium diesel engine, commanding amazing FE figures.

You've answered it already. They could do it just because its a small engine, with any more power and torque they will have to use cast iron.

I know its crude and un-refined.

If FE is the only indicator of an engine being better and high tech, how about sending the Suzuki Celerio 2 Cylinder for Engine of the year awards?

The Honda Engine is not only comparatively crude and unrefined, it hates of rev as well and is less fun to drive.

oming to i20, even if driven sedately, it is not as rewarding in FE terms as the say VW TDi, Shows how advanced the TDi tech is. I have driven the i20 sedately for 50Kms and I could only get 18-19 KMPL whereas I get the same when I drive my passat (170 PS) on the same route. I am pretty sure the Verna's 1.6 diesel on this route would deliver 16-17 at max.

It's the DSG gearbox you should be praising here, try to get the same figures in a manual Passat consistently and you will fail. Make your driving style as efficient as the DSG and the i20 will deliver better figures than your Passat. I've been there, done that, with my Laura DSG vs Punto MJD.

I just feel if one can surpass the noisy notion of the Jazz, its a better long term engine.

Search the Internet and you will know why everyone else like to make their Diesel engine in Iron and not Aluminium. We do not have substantial evidence to term this Aluminium engine a better long term engine. I'd think twice before remapping this engine for more power due to its aluminium build.

[Crazy_Bean]

Originally Posted by .anshuman

You've answered it already. They could do it just because its a small engine, with any more power and torque they will have to use cast iron.



If FE is the only indicator of an engine being better and high tech, how about sending the Suzuki Celerio 2 Cylinder for Engine of the year awards?

The Honda Engine is not only comparatively crude and unrefined, it hates of rev as well and is less fun to drive.



C
It's the DSG gearbox you should be praising here, try to get the same figures in a manual Passat consistently and you will fail. Make your driving style as efficient as the DSG and the i20 will deliver better figures than your Passat. I've been there, done that, with my Laura DSG vs Punto MJD.



Search the Internet and you will know why everyone else like to make their Diesel engine in Iron and not Aluminium. We do not have substantial evidence to term this Aluminium engine a better long term engine. I'd think twice before remapping this engine for more power due to its aluminium build.

Thanks for information. As i said, I am a noob at this.

And my Passat is Manual, and I can be very consistent with mileage.

[Sheel]

Honda has just started out with diesels. It will take some time to get those metallurgical perfection found in European diesels resulting in better NVH, refinement, performance & economy.