[VRPAI]

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

I never meant Figo could be better than Abarth punto with few mods. I have driven both cars. Abarth punto is definitely the hot hatch. But Figo diesel can be faster than abarth punto with few mods and still costing less.

In the same way ,maybe a Abarth could be faster than the Octavia 1.8 with a remap and a better set of tyres and still costing just half of the Octavia.And maybe the Octavia with similar mods can be faster to the ton than a beemer at a much lower price and so on.So when it comes to stock cars I think it's still the Abarth that comes on top .

Anyways am glad that we both agree the Abarth is the better hot hatch and the fastest hatchback available off the showrooms right now.

Cheers

[Dr.Naren]

Originally Posted by VRPAI

In the same way ,maybe a Abarth could be faster than the Octavia 1.8 with a remap and a better set of tyres and still costing just half of the Octavia.And maybe the Octavia with similar mods can be faster to the ton than a beemer at a much lower price and so on.So when it comes to stock cars I think it's still the Abarth that comes on top .

Anyways am glad that we both agree the Abarth is the better hot hatch and the fastest hatchback available off the showrooms right now.

Cheers

Yes, I definitely agree Abarth punto is the best hatch available today. But Cars like Figo,Polo GT can better Abarth Punto in performance with minimal mods. I had thought of Figo diesel with remap, bigger and wider tyres, Bilstein shocks and it would still cost less than Abarth punto. When it comes to safety, punto has rear 2 discs, better build while Figo comes with 6 airbags.

[dark.knight]

Originally Posted by Dr.Naren

But Cars like Figo,Polo GT can better Abarth Punto in performance with minimal mods.

True, many vehicles can be completely changed in terms of character & feel by mods, there are endless ways like upgrading tyre spec, exhaust, shocks etc. However in this case I do not think Figo can better the Punto with such upgrades, not even remotely. Punto even though it is an outdated design and technically nearly a decade behind the newly developed Figo, is still far superior - it has the rigid chassis which is built to carry speeds specially when cornering. Fiat royally screwed up the driving position and gearshift yet got the suspension spot-on and by that I mean no car in that price range can come close, I took it on some terrible roads carrying speeds well in excess of 40 and the car dismissed all the undulations and potholes like they were nothing, the Figo on much better roads felt a bit rickety and wobbly over rough patches.

Its my personal opinion that 0-100 means nothing in a country like ours, yes it does help on a racetrack. With tuning, better intake & suspension upgrades on might enhance the straight line performance at best but the Punto is definitely the better car which has been built ground up as a drivers car, the steering being old school hydraulics carries weight which is useful for bends while the Figo felt loose. Having driven GT Tsi too, I can say I truly admire it for its instinctual gearbox which is a real automatic and sometimes even reads your inputs before you realize what you want to do, that's the good. The steering is still lifeless & light & overall it just felt like a more than capable cruiser than a driving machine.

Personally I'll pick the Figo the last. I'm not a Fiat fan per se and I've not even test-driven the Abarth, the normal 1.4 itself felt quite powerful & adequate with its 89 odd bhp if I remember, one can only imagine what the Abarth can do (not that its suitable for this country of course). Each driver has his/her preferences and I guess each of these 3 cars currently under discussion might please the respective types.

[VRPAI]

Originally Posted by dark.knight

True, many vehicles can be completely changed in terms of character & feel by mods, there are endless ways like upgrading tyre spec, exhaust, shocks etc. However in this case I do not think Figo can better the Punto with such upgrades, not even remotely. Punto even though it is an outdated design and technically nearly a decade behind the newly developed Figo, is still far superior - it has the rigid chassis which is built to carry speeds specially when cornering. Fiat royally screwed up the driving position and gearshift yet got the suspension spot-on and by that I mean no car in that price range can come close, I took it on some terrible roads carrying speeds well in excess of 40 and the car dismissed all the undulations and potholes like they were nothing, the Figo on much better roads felt a bit rickety and wobbly over rough patches.

Its my personal opinion that 0-100 means nothing in a country like ours, yes it does help on a racetrack. With tuning, better intake & suspension upgrades on might enhance the straight line performance at best but the Punto is definitely the better car which has been built ground up as a drivers car, the steering being old school hydraulics carries weight which is useful for bends while the Figo felt loose. Having driven GT Tsi too, I can say I truly admire it for its instinctual gearbox which is a real automatic and sometimes even reads your inputs before you realize what you want to do, that's the good. The steering is still lifeless & light & overall it just felt like a more than capable cruiser than a driving machine.

Couldn't agree with you more.Figo and Punto are completely different cars in my opinion.In my opinion,just because the 0-100 are close does not mean the performance would be the same. It just tells you half the story, even on race tracks i doubt if the figo could outdo the Abarth owing to the superior handing of the abarth. Plus is it just me who thinks the Abarth feels a lot more powerful than the figo?! .In real world i thought the Abarth was league's ahead of the Figo in terms of performance. The car was just going and going and i was doing 150odd in a pretty quick time and it felt as if it could do a lot more. The Abarth excited me with its awesome power whereas the Ford didn't as much. Nevertheless its a good car with a brilliant engine. But performance wise better than the Abarth?-Don't think so. That's the way I felt.

[akshay4587]

Originally Posted by dark.knight

True, many vehicles can be completely changed in terms of character & feel by mods, there are endless ways like upgrading tyre spec, exhaust, shocks etc. However in this case I do not think Figo can better the Punto with such upgrades, not even remotely. Punto even though it is an outdated design and technically nearly a decade behind the newly developed Figo, is still far superior - it has the rigid chassis which is built to carry speeds specially when cornering. Fiat royally screwed up the driving position and gearshift yet got the suspension spot-on and by that I mean no car in that price range can come close, I took it on some terrible roads carrying speeds well in excess of 40 and the car dismissed all the undulations and potholes like they were nothing, the Figo on much better roads felt a bit rickety and wobbly over rough patches.

Its my personal opinion that 0-100 means nothing in a country like ours, yes it does help on a racetrack. With tuning, better intake & suspension upgrades on might enhance the straight line performance at best but the Punto is definitely the better car which has been built ground up as a drivers car, the steering being old school hydraulics carries weight which is useful for bends while the Figo felt loose. Having driven GT Tsi too, I can say I truly admire it for its instinctual gearbox which is a real automatic and sometimes even reads your inputs before you realize what you want to do, that's the good. The steering is still lifeless & light & overall it just felt like a more than capable cruiser than a driving machine..

Dont have the Punto, but i own a linea and a Polo.
Linea's steering being hydraulic provides excellent feedback.
Polo has EPS hence it is light, and i wont call it lifeless at all, in fact,
its pretty good around corners and has good feedback inspite of being light.

[ortho_surgeon]

Punto Abarth any day is a better car to drive and with its 4 disc brakes I feel will be more secure.

Polo GT Tsi with its DSG gear box is a good second. But again the reliability of the DSG is something that is a big question mark.

Ford Figo I feel is a fragile vehicle. I will not consider it here.

Baleno RS is another fragile vehicle which Maruti plans to launch with a 1L booster engine 110bhp but will be good enough. Time will tell. But will its vast sales and service network it will definitely sell more than the rest. But Baleno for me is an ultra light weight car.

[imp!]

I bought the Polo Gt TSI instead of a Punto Abarth. Even though I liked the drive dynamics of the Punto more, for a car used by the entire family in Bangalore city traffic the auto box made the most sense.

I also feel that the Polo GT Tsi is a much better built car and one which will age better than the Punto. This is an important consideration for me as all our cars routinely do 7-10 years duty.

[Waspune]

This is the real irony. Looking at the votes, the Abarth Punto is clearly a winner.

Does this mean that voting is different and buying is a totally different ball game all together? The GT (specially TSI) does decent numbers and the Abarth is hardly seen. Does this mean that, even the enthusiasts are going for the more practical alternative?

OR does it mean that GT TSI's decent monthly numbers are because of first time drivers/non-enthusiasts, thanks to the brilliant DSG transmission ?

[McLaren Rulez]

Originally Posted by Waspune

This is the real irony. Looking at the votes, the Abarth Punto is clearly a winner.

Does this mean that voting is different and buying is a totally different ball game all together?

The Punto is fair bit more expensive and is backed by a weaker manufacturer. And as you noted, there are people who just want an automatic car for whom the Polo makes a lot of sense. For me, these would explain the difference between voting results and sales.

And I personally think that Fiat went completely overboard with the exteriors - the decals and stickers should have been optional.

[vinit.merchant]

Originally Posted by Waspune

This is the real irony. Looking at the votes, the Abarth Punto is clearly a winner.

Does this mean that voting is different and buying is a totally different ball game all together?

What it also means is that those who voted for the Abarth are not in the market to buy a car, whereas those who voted for the TSI are those who actually bought it !

Honestly, it all boils down to which car is backed by which manufacturer.
The same Abarth would have done differently in the sales department had it been carrying a different badge (at least in India).
Similarly, the TSI would have probably done the same numbers as the Abarth (may be a little more due to the AT) had it been badged a Fiat, No?

[Waspune]

Originally Posted by vinit.merchant

What it also means is that those who voted for the Abarth are not in the market to buy a car, whereas those who voted for the TSI are those who actually bought it !

Honestly, it all boils down to which car is backed by which manufacturer.
The same Abarth would have done differently in the sales department had it been carrying a different badge (at least in India).
Similarly, the TSI would have probably done the same numbers as the Abarth (may be a little more due to the AT) had it been badged a Fiat, No?

Well, here we are talking about an out an out performance car, specially positioned to enthusiasts, so manufacturer, service and other things take a back seat, because its about the product per se. Didnt enthusiasts buy the Skodas, the VRSs, the S10s 10 years back??

And to be honest the GT TSI isnt an enthusiast focussed car but came into discussion as it was the closest competitor to the Abarth.

[vinit.merchant]

Originally Posted by Waspune

Well, here we are talking about an out an out performance car, specially positioned to enthusiasts, so manufacturer, service and other things take a back seat, because its about the product per se. Didn't enthusiasts buy the Skodas, the VRSs, the S10s 10 years back??

Manufacturer, service and other things, in fact, take the front seat when an enthusiast is in the market to buy one. Not the costs of service, but the service per se. Why? Because cars made for enthusiasts aren't cheap, they do cost a good amount of money. Why spend so much and then still await parts, frustrate with the service, travel outside the city just to get your car serviced at the A.S.S. etc.
The manufacturers focus matters and it clearly reflects in the sales. A place like Mumbai does not have a Fiat dealer since a long time now.

Coming to 10-15 years back, Fiat broke the monotone the buyers were facing. Maruti, Hyundai and HM. They offered a true European car and good Petrol + Diesel engines on all models. It worked, and let me assure you, it worked like a charm. There was waiting on Sienna, Palio & the Uno. Then? It all boiled down to lack of service, created a bad name and destroyed Fiat.

Skoda's are different and cannot be compared to Fiat in India. Because they are here to sell cars, not engines. Even though Skoda service might be worse than Fiat, look at their offerings. They are associated as a Premium brand because of their portfolio of cars.

And at least Skodas have a dealer + service centre in most of the major cities in India.

I myself own a Palio GTX and if I am in the market with a budget of 12 large, I will not go back to Fiat again, no matter how robust the cars are.

After all, in the end, it is the perception of the buyers that matters the most. Not the reality, not how good the car is, but the perception in peoples mind. (take Tata as another example of how badly the perception has struck their sales figures)

And to be honest the GT TSI isn't an enthusiast focused car but came into discussion as it was the closest competitor to the Abarth.

As things stand, it is the Abarth which is out of the competition.

[Waspune]

Originally Posted by vinit.merchant

Manufacturer, service and other things, in fact, take the front seat when an enthusiast is in the market to buy one. Not the costs of service, but the service per se.

Even though Skoda service might be worse than Fiat, look at their offerings. They are associated as a Premium brand because of their portfolio of cars.

Here you have contradicted your own statement. Let us be fair that Skoda (VAG) and Fiat, both suck at their A.S.S. Infact, Fiat is better and a lot cheaper than the VAG.

Also,Fiat spares are readily available at 99rpm, so you dont have to be dependent on the delaership/service station for that.

Originally Posted by vinit.merchant

I myself own a Palio GTX and if I am in the market with a budget of 12 large, I will not go back to Fiat again, no matter how robust the cars are.

Well thats your choice. I have no right to talk about what you should buy and not.

Originally Posted by vinit.merchant

After all, in the end, it is the perception of the buyers that matters the most. Not the reality, not how good the car is, but the perception in peoples mind. (take Tata as another example of how badly the perception has struck their sales figures)

I agree here, that the perception matters in which Fiat has screwed up in recent times, but mainly for a mango man, for whom the A.S.S matters more than the product/car per se.

This discussion can go on and on but it just feels that there is a dearth of enthusiasts nowadays. Maybe you would like to go through the following article that also opines the same :

https://www.motorbeam.com/2016/03/ca...iast-confused/

[vinit.merchant]

Originally Posted by Waspune

Here you have contradicted your own statement. Let us be fair that Skoda (VAG) and Fiat, both suck at their A.S.S. Infact, Fiat is better and a lot cheaper than the VAG.

It appears as a contradiction because the two brands cannot be compared, as was initially pointed out.

Also,Fiat spares are readily available at 99rpm, so you dont have to be dependent on the dealership/service station for that.

Yes, but one at least needs to go to the A.S.S. to get the diagnosis of what is wrong, at least during the warranty period.

I agree here, that the perception matters in which Fiat has screwed up in recent times, but mainly for a mango man, for whom the A.S.S matters more than the product/car per se.

An enthusiast can be a mango man, no?

Anyway, I love the Abarth for what it offers, but at the end of day, I also want peace of mind ownership experience (leaving out the costs).
I do not expect to travel out of the city to get the car serviced.
I do not expect to do the part shopping myself online (though 99rpm's levels of service have come down lately)
Why should I after paying a little more than a million INR?

If this make me a non-enthusiast, that's OK with me. I still love driving and will continue to do so.

Although the Abarth makes a very strong case for someone who has a daily driver already in the garage and is looking to add a Fun to drive car. For a lot majority out there, its going to be just a 1 car in the garage, and hence the numbers we see.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by Waspune

And to be honest the GT TSI isnt an enthusiast focussed car but came into discussion as it was the closest competitor to the Abarth.

Actually, a lot of enthusiasts prefer a more well balanced car. The Punto we get here simply does not deserve the Abarth badge IMO. It is not about outright power, braking or steering feedback. It is about balance for some people like me. The Punto was begging for stiffer suspension and strut braces to cope with its weight. The Polo on the other hand, even though it is softly sprung, strikes a perfect balance and is a lot more confidence inspiring to drive at the limit for someone like me, that is what makes a good car and when we're talking about focused, let us not forget that the Polo also offers a much better driving position. This is just my view. There are others who can say that it is about the power/kickback in the seat/hydraulic steering etc. I'm just trying to show you that there are multiple schools of thought on this

Originally Posted by Waspune

Here you have contradicted your own statement. Let us be fair that Skoda (VAG) and Fiat, both suck at their A.S.S. Infact, Fiat is better and a lot cheaper than the VAG.

Also,Fiat spares are readily available at 99rpm, so you dont have to be dependent on the delaership/service station for that.

Yes Fiat has been slightly better than the VAG group in terms of service but let us not nitpick here. I think he wasn't contradicting anything because he himself went on to say that Skoda is perceived as a premium brand here in India. Many folks aspire to buy an A4 and complain about issues they may have faced with service even though it has not been that great as an enthusiasts car. Also for those enthusiasts who buy a Skoda, most of them are in the know and there are a lot of good independent garages who can easily deal with the Laura/Octavia and have parts imported for them. A more apt comparison would be to Ford. They are not considered premium and many of their enthusiast products like the 1.6 rocam Ikon, 1.6S Fiesta, Mondeo etc. failed to capture the market.