[vjbox]

Dear Mods- Please help change the thread title appropriately as I have moved away from the original requirement of a used car and booked a new Polo. Thanks!

[shancz]

Originally Posted by vjbox

Dear Mods- Please help change the thread title appropriately as I have moved away from the original requirement of a used car and booked a new Polo. Thanks!

Report the post by clicking the warning triangle icon on the bottom left of your post.

[Emmanuel_Cant]

Hello,

First of all, thank you for creating this community. Two months back, I couldn't have told a Swift and Audi apart. There is a wealth of information and genuine discussion in this forum and that really helped me gain a basic level of understanding about cars and models!


I am trying to buy my first car and would like some feedback on my model selection logic.

Usage: I will use my car within Bangalore city and do weekend trips to Chennai. In addition, I also like to travel and do mountain treks - so I envision having to drive through hilly roads as well as somewhat villagish roads during these trips (not really considering off-roading/SUVs here since that will inflate the budget and also need better driving skills than this new driver ).


My primary criteria for selection were:


1) High safety rating: When I was learning to drive, I liked the experience of driving the Baleno. But I set myself a threshold of 4-star NCAP rating for buying a car and this removed both Baleno and i20 from my list - my understanding is that both these are 3-star rated. In addition, I noticed multiple Baleno owners on the forum citing its flimsy build as a safety concern. Cars such as Tiago, Altroz made the shortlist based on this along with Honda Jazz and VW Polo.


2) Automatic: From my reading, AMT automatics seem to have recurrent reliability issues and also tend to lag a bit. This implies that when driving on inclines, I'll have to handbrake every time I stop/start. So I decided to stay with CVT automatics. This removed all the shortlisted Tata cars (Tiago/Tigor/Altroz etc) and left me with only Jazz, Polo or a sedan.

3) Budget, Used vs New: This is somewhat flexible. My initial intended budget was 7L, but I am willing to inflate it a bit towards 8-9L if needed. The ceiling is not set in concrete, but I would rather limit spending within this window. I find the used car buying process daunting, but I'm willing to work through it since it makes my options wider ! This basically removed the Sedan option unless I'm willing to buy a reasonably old vehicle. So Jazz and Polo are the options in my mind right now.


3) Reliability, low maintenance: I am not a motorhead. I would cry more if I have to visit service centers often than if my car packed less of a punch. I would rather drive sedately and get from one place to another. Only exceptions to this are that to the extent possible, I would like the car to a) pick up quickly from 0 kmph in order to minimize the number of people honking at me from behind in signals, b) overtake reasonably well at around 100 kmph on highways.


Questions:
1) Are there any obvious flaws in my selection mechanism? I am tilting towards the Jazz since Polo's speciality seems to be its amazing engine, which comes at the cost of a sparse interior and limited rear space.

2) Most NCAP ratings seem to be for European cars. How well do these ratings carry over to the Indian versions ?

3) Jazz's sales don't seem to be through the roof compared to say, Baleno, Swift. Why is this? Is it that safety is not a criterion for Indian buyers or is it the higher price point or is there something else that I am missing about the car ?

4) Are there any experiences with Spinny as a dealer for used cars? A couple of friends highly recommended it to me as a reliable dealer who marks up a bit. Given that I am a first-time car buyer, some reliable used car dealers would help me avoid major pitfalls. Given how little I know about cars, I am a bit hesitatn to go the OLX route even with a mechanic to help.

Thanks for your time, kind Internet strangers!

[abhishek46]

Originally Posted by Emmanuel_Cant

Questions:
1) Are there any obvious flaws in my selection mechanism? I am tilting towards the Jazz since Polo's speciality seems to be its amazing engine, which comes at the cost of a sparse interior and limited rear space.

2) Most NCAP ratings seem to be for European cars. How well do these ratings carry over to the Indian versions ?

3) Jazz's sales don't seem to be through the roof compared to say, Baleno, Swift. Why is this? Is it that safety is not a criterion for Indian buyers or is it the higher price point or is there something else that I am missing about the car ?

4) Are there any experiences with Spinny as a dealer for used cars? A couple of friends highly recommended it to me as a reliable dealer who marks up a bit. Given that I am a first-time car buyer, some reliable used car dealers would help me avoid major pitfalls. Given how little I know about cars, I am a bit hesitatn to go the OLX route even with a mechanic to help.

Thanks for your time, kind Internet strangers!

1. The VW Polo TSI Automatic is miles ahead of the Jazz CVT in terms of performance, ride & handling.
The Jazz is more spacious though.
Take your pick.

2. NCAP Ratings for EU specific vehicles mean nothing, for the vehicles sold in India.

3. The Indian Jazz has not been tested by any independent agency like Gncap.
So, we cannot comment on how many stars it will get.

Coming to flaws, the biggest issue with the Jazz is the engine. It is dead below 2000rpms and one has to work the engine hard to get any progress.
The CVT is even slower.

4. Spinny is good.
I have personally sold my old Polo to them.
Good professional behavior.

[Shreyans_Jain]

Safe hatchbacks with a proper automatic are a rare commodity. Polo is essentially the only proven option. The only other possible options are the Renault Kiger and it’s cousin Nissan Magnite. Both fit the budget and have CVT automatics. But they are only ‘potentially’ safe, as they have scored 4 stars in ASEAN NCAP. Explicit made for India variants haven’t been tested separately.

Jazz belongs to the same category. It’s made for India variant hasn’t been crash tested anywhere. Also, the 1.2 petrol is really weak and has no place in any car with premium gimmick in 2021. It is totally blown away by the any and every turbocharged competition.

Venue and Sonet are basically tall boy hatchbacks in the price range with proper automatic options. But again, neither car can be considered safe. Especially considering how the i20 and Seltos have fared in GNCAP.

[shancz]

Originally Posted by Emmanuel_Cant

1) Are there any obvious flaws in my selection mechanism?
2) Most NCAP ratings seem to be for European cars. How well do these ratings carry over to the Indian versions ?
3) Jazz's sales don't seem to be through the roof compared to say, Baleno, Swift. Why is this? Is it that safety is not a criterion for Indian buyers or is it the higher price point or is there something else that I am missing about the car ?
4) Are there any experiences with Spinny as a dealer for used cars?

1. Your model selection is good, some grey areas though, explained below. Good call on the AMTs IMO. Baleno's thin sheet metal with its curvy designs does cause the "dimples", if you're concerned about that then skip it.

2. That's because EU safety standards are quite strict although EUNCAP like GNCAP we talk about here aren't mandatory.
On the safety ratings, the only way to be sure if a car to be sold in India goes through the GNCAP for India. Everything else is not proven hence a hope/educated guess.
That would put Jazz's EUNCAP rating as not applicable for India too.
But this being said you can expect a reasonable amount of safety from global platforms like the Jazz but that's not a case for every model(like the Seltos). So a grey area IMHO.
If you start going by GNCAP ratings your choices are limited and probably this thread won't even be needed then

3. Why Jazz sells less is a question I cannot answer but factors like looks, age, price, Honda's network coverage etc. do have an impact.

4. I have read that used cars are at an all time high so if the difference isn't that high then get a new car. Also being your first car it should be a good experience. Check out this thread.

Finally of the two Jazz seems to be more to your needs but do TD the Polo and i20 as well.

[Emmanuel_Cant]

Thank you very much for the feedback, appreciate your time.

So you're basically saying that if I want a decent sized car and features, NCAP rating is going to be a grey area.

It is dead below 2000rpms and one has to work the engine hard to get any progress.
The CVT is even slower.

Also, the 1.2 petrol is really weak and has no place in any car with premium gimmick in 2021. It is totally blown away by the any and every turbocharged competition.

What do these mean in practice? That "pickup" to a higher speed will be slow (say something like high time taken to go 0-100) ? I test drove the ZX CVT Jazz yesterday and I did not feel that it is "missing bite" - maybe I need more comparison points. I'll try to TD Polo to compare.

The only other possible options are the Renault Kiger and it’s cousin Nissan Magnite. Both fit the budget and have CVT automatics. But they are only ‘potentially’ safe, as they have scored 4 stars in ASEAN NCAP. Explicit made for India variants haven’t been tested separately.

Thank you for the suggestion, I'll read through their reviews too and give them a shot.

[ostreichwein]

If rear bench space isn't a major concern, I wouldn't think twice before going for the new Polo 1.0 TSI AT.

To give you a perspective, we bought a Jazz 1.2 VX MT back in 2016. We were totally blown away by the interior space on offer (better than a lot of sedans) and the magic seats (which they have deleted in the newer models ). Unfortunately, that is where the positives of the car ended. We thought we could live with a slow engine in return of the roominess on offer. Yes, you can work the gears to extract some performance, but that too is limited and not worth the extra effort you have to put in. Road trips and mountain driving were no longer an enjoyable experience (well, for the person at the wheel at least). Honda seriously needs to introduce a turbo petrol engine in our country. On top of that, build quality was nothing to write home about. We had constant rattles in the car which Honda workshop guys were never able to fully diagnose. There were problems in relation to water ingress during monsoons; and paint and plastic quality degraded quite rapidly.

Come 2020, we replaced our Jazz with a new Polo GT TSI 1.0 with the revised TC gearbox. There's not a day that I regret this decision. It's just effortless performance - can throw it into corners confidently; has top notch high speed stability; and the kickdown acceleration in S mode can surprise cars of even a segment higher. The (presumed) reliability of TC gearbox, compared to the notorious DSG from previous gen Polos, provides some level of mental comfort. We also own a Vento since 2013 and find VW service to be decent. Definitely expensive compared to Honda, but I feel it's worth the trade off in the long run.

By the way, if it helps, we sold our Jazz through Spinny, and found those guys to be quite professional + offered better value for the car compared to OLX, Cars 24 and other local dealers. Process and documentation was seamless and fast. Would recommend.

Good luck with your purchase decision

[vjbox]

Update -

While we hang in after having booked the GT TSI Flash Red, we couldn't help but take a look at the Matte Edition that now is at the dealership albeit in very limited numbers and seems to be selling out ( don't know what's with the Polo fans!)

Now I am told there are no discounts on the Matte edition and below is the quote KUN VW shared with me today and I find it surprising that they are pushing some stuff forcibly. There is something called the Thermo pack that the SA says is needed to maintain the Matt shade (not really sure if its a gimmick) and that is priced at 25k INR ! And then the usual accessories they add to bloat the price up. This now takes the price to 12L (incl 5th year warranty) and I am trying to wrap my head around this with the SA who is equally clueless on the pricing and says they are simply asked to push it down to the customers. I told the SA that I will only consider this if they offer it without any of those compulsory packs/ kits and will opt to get my own insurance. SA tells me that they have been asked to sell this as a package only and not sure if that can be removed (he is checking with his higher ups) . I am really wondering how can the dealership force you to take the additional accessories leaving no choice? There is no mention of such compulsory packs in the VW website under the Matte edition page so I believe its fair to shoot it down and ask for only the car.



While I am not a yet a fan of the new shade, I am checking the car out in flesh tomorrow along with my wife to see if she likes it. I am told this shade looks good in person and will stand out from the rest of the clan, so who knows if I might like it. The car is in stock and that is a positive situation given the slow production of the regular variants and our huge lack of patience.

[vjbox]

Originally Posted by vjbox

Update -

There is something called the Thermo pack that the SA says is needed to maintain the Matt shade (not really sure if its a gimmick) and that is priced at 25k INR !

The Thermo pack like I suspected is nothing but the cooler box that the dealer is ruthlessly pushing part of the Matte edition that is priced ridiculously at 25K INR. The SA had no clue and instead blabbered that it was some paint protection kit

The shade otherwise looked pretty good in flesh contrary to what I thought originally. But the lack of discount and compulsory accessories with zero stock again, meant we had to walk out of KUN today. VW really need to work on their sales talents- I mean they have zero intentions to sell the product to you and end up wasting time. Have checked with Sundaram on the new edition provided they dont do the shady tactics of adding compulsory accessories. If this doesnt work out, we decided to rather wait and get the regular variant we originally booked.

[Durango Dude]

Between the Polo and the Jazz, I'd have picked the Jazz any day. The one thing that separates both is interior space, reliability and smooth CVT coupled with the fuel efficiency of a NA engine as compared to a turbo petrol which can fluctuate wildly depending on driving style.

[shancz]

Originally Posted by Emmanuel_Cant

- So you're basically saying that if I want a decent sized car and features, NCAP rating is going to be a grey area.
- I test drove the ZX CVT Jazz yesterday and I did not feel that it is "missing bite"

- Yes, since most cars don't have it.
- If you didn't feel it you're fine getting the car. The whole concept of performance is relative. Once you TD the Polo and then TD the Jazz you'll feel that it isn't accelerating as fast because now your benchmarks have changed.
In the end get the car you feel the most happy/comfortable with, which ever it is, point is to enjoy the drives

Originally Posted by vjbox

If this doesnt work out, we decided to rather wait and get the regular variant we originally booked.

Quite weird experience with the matte edition though.
I would also suggest to go with your original choice.
I own two matte grey two-wheelers but I wouldn't get that in a car.
It looks smashing IMO but I cannot handle the maintenance of that color on something as big as a car.
On two wheelers I have already stopped caring

[AJ56]

Originally Posted by Emmanuel_Cant

What do these mean in practice? That "pickup" to a higher speed will be slow (say something like high time taken to go 0-100) ? I test drove the ZX CVT Jazz yesterday and I did not feel that it is "missing bite" - maybe I need more comparison points. I'll try to TD Polo to compare.

The 1.2 L12B iVtec from Honda is utterly incompetent as far as power/acceleration is concerned, unfortunately you’ll find this engine in all their subcompacts like Jazz, Brio, Amaze, etc. next time you test drive try flooring it, it’ll rev and hardly anything will happen, that’s what’s meant by ‘lacking power’, you have to rev it to redline to get any progress and even then it’s painfully slow.

0-100 times are worse than cars from a decade ago at 12.5-13 seconds for manual and torque converter transmissions, with the CVT’s I believe it’s even worse at 14-15 secs. The engine is such a major disappointment I’d avoid the jazz and it’s cousins for this reason alone. Also note this engine has a speed limiter built into the ECU, if you’re on the highway often you might want to confirm this for the exact model you’re getting before putting in the deposit. Cheers.

[sanchari]

I have been using Jazzz manual variant for last five years, and it has never been a problem for me. I have done multiple highway trips HYD-BLR and it has never let me down. You can comfortably cruise at 100-110 , and max I have floored it was to 120 as I am not a very aggressive driver. I have never had any problems overtaking vehicles, either in city or highway. The low end torque is the only issue, but you get used to that too pretty quickly.

Performance is relative to usage. Not everyone wants to drive 120+ speed always, and even there if you plan it well, its not an issue. The Jazz engine is pretty quiet and smooth, the car has loads of space and overall is pretty good package if it fits your driving style.

[Emmanuel_Cant]

An update - I TD'ed both Polo GT Automatic and Jazz CVT and here are my observations:

1. The Polo driving experience is definitely leagues ahead. One very stark example I noticed was when driving the two cars up a steep ramp (mall parking ramp, say). When I started the Polo from stationary position on this ramp, it held for a second and then literally surged forward. I also felt that the ride is more stable at higher speeds (my higher speed means 80, not 120) and Polo has the better suspension in my opinion.
   
   
2. The Jazz is definitely not this amazing, but I did not feel its unviable either. For the CVT setup (Which is the only one I drove), I felt that the engine performance is still OK. For example, the Jazz's performance on ramps depended on the angle. For every steep ramps, the Jazz held for a second due to hill-assist and then started moving back slowly. For shallower ramps, it held its position and stayed there. On flat roads, I felt it lacked a little bit of kick, but it did not feel that bad at all. Overall, I felt that
   1. if the engine had been somewhat weaker or
   2. the car did not have hill hold or
   3. I had driven a manual version,
   I may have complained about the engine. But with the CVT setup, I felt OK about the car.
   
   
3. I disregarded Magnite based on stories about poor service and sales experience with Nissan, but I still intend to TD the Kiger as suggested by /u/Shreyans_Jain.

----------

In conclusion, based on these TDs, I felt that:

• If I were going to buy and hold a new car for say, 5+ years, I would definitely buy the Polo GT mainly because I figure I would drive through hilly roads etc much more after the first 2 years.
  
• However, the Jazz has much better 2nd hand market presence. I've only seen one second-hand Polo (driven 90k) in my admittedly not-so-diligent search whereas Jazz CVT seems to be a steady mover in the second hand market. So I would really not be averse to buying a 2nd hand Jazz (say 2019+) and driving it for 2-3 years as my first car.
  
• Another minor point I noticed is that the waiting times for Polo GT seem to be quite high (3-4 months - I've only checked with 2 dealers in Bangalore so far).

----------

A couple of follow-up questions (one slightly off-topic):

a) If I get standard + extended warranty, is the cost of maintaining a Polo much higher than Jazz? By my current computation, Jazz would cost ~10k per year for service (1 service every 6 months) and Polo would cost ~15k (one per year). Are these estimates reasonable? In any case, both these numbers seem to be way lower than per annum petrol costs!


b) I noticed that the rear parking camera in Jazz has one angle for the V CVT and 3 angles for the VX CVT. Do multiple angles really make a difference?


Thanks a lot for helping me with timely advice!