Help Required Indica Vista Safire or Indica Vista TDI

SumitB · 3rd January 2009, 11:02

Going through the spreadsheet, I fail to justify your choice for going in for the petrol (considering the savings). Just re-look at the TDI and take a test drive and then decide. You never know, you may create situations which will need you to drive for longer distances if you go in for the TDI.

Best of Luck.

greenhorn · 3rd January 2009, 11:14

if you can stand teh nvh, by all means get the tdi. You'll notice that you'll end up using the car a lot more than you would with the saffire

PS: the TDI is a tried and tested engine, used in the indica/indigo series for ages. parts and expertise for the engine should be cheap and plenty!

condor · 3rd January 2009, 11:27

@Logical, was having a look at the sheet. 350km a month is very very conservative, something like doing 10km a day. Normal running will be much more. Just wait & watch once you get the car.

So I changed the running to 1000km a month, which changed the values to 8.3 years of ownership. The sheets shows the savings to now be 98k.

Two more points :
* Maintenance costs will increase over time. In this case, you will have to do time-bound servicing, paying same rate as distance-based servicing.
* It would make sense to calculate using down-payment as reference, instead of loan amount. If you do this, then the savings are shown to be about 1.3L

greenhorn · 3rd January 2009, 11:51

I'm not sure if we can use the same yardstick for maintenence here.
the saffire , since it uses fiat parts - engine spares may be costlier/in short supply or both, just like a lot of fiat owners know now.

on the other hand , the parts should be cheaply available since they are from an existing tata engine.

WanderNomad · 3rd January 2009, 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by SumitB

You never know, you may create situations which will need you to drive for longer distances if you go in for the TDI.

Exactly what I feel too. There can always be situations warranting more daily kms than estimated. Plus the Diesels from Tata stable always command a better resale (their Petrol resale is horrible). I suggest you rethink over it.

revhappy · 3rd January 2009, 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logical

...Will take a closer look at the TDi to check if I can live with the noise levels and gather inputs regarding reliability of the engine. I am hoping that the ride quality and handling would not be compromised for the TDi...

Hi Logical,

I had done some research about the TDi engine prior to buying the Vista. If you see the ownership reviews of the indica/indigo you will find that none of them had any engine problems whatsoever.

In the reviews you will find that there might be niggling issues with the car itself but not the engine. There are tones of taxis running on the Tata engines . They are known to be rugged and can survive any conditions.

They are less refine then the CRDI engines, but then the phrase "Less refined" only means the higher noise levels and lower levels of torque output.

The Tata's seem to have improved the quality of the car itself in the Vista.
Hence if you have gone ahead and decided upto buying a Tata car, then the TDi engine's reliability is the last thing that you should worry about.

After all they have a 4 year warranty on the car and the engine and also I believe that Tata's offer engine swap at half the price of the engine if there is any problem.

Hence if you have a strict budget of 4.5 lacs then, the Vista TDi is the best car you can buy for that money.

Cheers,
Nitin

Logical · 3rd January 2009, 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by revhappy

Hi Logical,

I had done some research about the TDi engine prior to buying the Vista. If you see the ownership reviews of the indica/indigo you will find that none of them had any engine problems whatsoever.

In the reviews you will find that there might be niggling issues with the car itself but not the engine. There are tones of taxis running on the Tata engines . They are known to be rugged and can survive any conditions.

They are less refine then the CRDI engines, but then the phrase "Less refined" only means the higher noise levels and lower levels of torque output.

The Tata's seem to have improved the quality of the car itself in the Vista.
Hence if you have gone ahead and decided upto buying a Tata car, then the TDi engine's reliability is the last thing that you should worry about.

After all they have a 4 year warranty on the car and the engine and also I believe that Tata's offer engine swap at half the price of the engine if there is any problem.

Hence if you have a strict budget of 4.5 lacs then, the Vista TDi is the best car you can buy for that money.

Cheers,
Nitin

What you say makes absolute sense will definitely be trying out the TDi before I finally finally conclude.
Wonder why the TDi is kept on the backburner in promotions by TML even though it makes the most VFM buy

CtrlAltDel · 3rd January 2009, 16:54

woohoo!!! one more potential convert to the Diesel Cause!!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logical

Agreed that the diesel provides better torque hence acceleration but it might not be economical if we consider only the FE in isolation without considering the total cost of ownership.

Have prepared an xls file which compares the two variants and there isnt any marked advantage for diesel upto 450 km/month usage. my requirement is 400 km/month OTT a more realistic figure is 350 km/month

Added to that the likely hood of diesel subsidies being reduced to bring at par with Petrol in the future, along with higher noise levels and peace of mind that comes with a petrol engine, diesel may not seem to be an attractive proposition especially when the running of the vehicle is given to be limited.

yeah i know all that...my brain agrees with you but my heart runs on diesel fuel

Logical · 3rd January 2009, 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by condor

@Logical, was having a look at the sheet.

Two more points :
* Maintenance costs will increase over time. In this case, you will have to do time-bound servicing, paying same rate as distance-based servicing.
* It would make sense to calculate using down-payment as reference, instead of loan amount. If you do this, then the savings are shown to be about 1.3L

Thanks for pointing out the bug in the sheet It used to calculate Emi only for a loan of 200000.
now the revised sheet has user input for loan amount (which can be 0 for full Down payment)

Also have added option for maintenance charge based on user input, sorry but Im too lazy to factor in variability of maintainence over time and the sheet still considers an average maintenance for a diesel vehicle per month as a constant over a given time period.

The password for user input Green coloured cells stays same "INDIA"

sushantr5 · 14th January 2009, 19:18

It will be wise to go for Diesel Engines. These days diesel engines are very maintenance free. You will get advantage of per km economy and price of diesel will give you comfort.

People think that why should I spend more on diesel because of their preconception they think that diesel engines requires more maintenance. And they go for petrol. But by looking the price of petrol they feel that I should not use the car. One of my friend has a car but comes on bike to office because he feels that he spending a lot on petrol. Then buddy why should you bought a car if u cant afford it's running. Then these car runs very less kms and will have less maintenace. But A Diesel car guy would use car like anything and will enjoy his life. That's important.

sushantr5 · 14th January 2009, 19:20

And in future if we get out of stock of fossil fuel then Diesel have alternative in the form of Biodiesel...

revhappy · 24th January 2009, 09:42

@Logical: So finally what did you decide mate?

nukeblitz · 24th January 2009, 23:03

I'm buying an indica vista too and have a similar dilemma. However I'm pretty confident that the TDi's far better than the safire. I have an estimated usage of 1000 km per month which is more than Logical's 400. But I still believe that even for Logical's usage, the TDi is better.
Here are a few differences between the two and my views on them.

TDi has slightly more power per tonne than the SAFIRE.
TDi has a LOT more torque per tonne than the SAFIRE.
TDi will give better mileage than the SAFIRE and it's a diesel too.
TDi comes with 175/65 R14s while the SAFIRE comes with 175/70 R13. Believe me when i say that the R14s are SOO much better looking.
TDi is a TATA engine where as the SAFIRE is sourced from FIAT. This may mean spares might be cheaper and easier to find for the TATA. Might be wrong on this one.
SAFIRE is cheaper than the TDi by about Rs. 40000 on road.
SAFIRE is quieter and more refined than the TDi. But I feel that with the excellent sound-proofing in the Vists, this really shouldn't be much of a concern.
SAFIRE comes with Fiat's C510 star gear box while TDi comes with Tata's TA65 gearbox. I believe both are cable operated but Fiat's is likely to be better. I'm not sure about this one as I haven't had the chance to try the TA65 yet. Anybody who has experience here??

Conclusion
I feel that the SAFIRE is under powered for the Vista and doesn't give amazing fuel efficiency figures either. It may be more refined but that doesn't really turn the fight around for it. I feel that the TDi is well worth the 40,000 extra you pay for it. And one more thing. The brochure says that tilt adjustable steering is available only on the SAFIRE and QUADRAJET but I've read here on these forums that it's available on the TDi too.

Interesting fact.
Difference between Terra TDi and aqua TDi is 16000 while difference between Terra SAFIRE and Aqua SAFIRE is 26000.

vahss_11 · 27th January 2009, 14:44

Even I am looking to buy indica vista Quadrajet ,, is my choice good? i mean TDI or QJ ??

amit_purohit20 · 27th January 2009, 15:00

1) I do not agree with the per month usage.What should matter is the comparison of total cost(Initial Cost + Interest to Bank + Fuel cost + Scheduled Maintenance + Additional Maintenance) of both petrol and diesel cars for a predecided kms at which you will sell your car. Say 85000 kms.
2) Diesel cars (TDI) need engine oil change at 5000 kms (Pls dont tell me about Car Manual figures they wont work out for bad Indian conditions) where as petrol (company suggested:10000 kms) i would do it at 8000kms. Put some additional say 300-400 rs extra for wheel alignment and balancing for diesel car due to extra weight of engine. Petrol car has 4 litres of engine oil and Diesel car 5 litres.(225 rs x 4 or 5 depending upon petrol/diesel). 650 rs Petro Servicing, 800 Rs Diesel Car servicing.
3) Consider rs 15000 extra for diesel eg any unforseen big repair work such as fuel pump calibration/repair, replacement of engine mounts etc.
4) Refer my excel sheet which considers all the above calculations.
Conclusion: Both work out to be nearly same cost diesel or petrol.If you do not undergo any major failure in diesel you save at the max 15000. So now it becomes a choice of your heart, whether you want refined smooth petrol engine or torquey diesel with bigger tyres and a turbo. My choice diesel

( Reason is pyschological: I need not worry about fuel costs while filling at the fuel bunk )
{For those persons who take cars on loan. Please enter the total amount (Car price + Interest paid to bank during the whole loan period+Stamp duty fees) in Car cost A and B. }
If you want an explanation for the above excel sheet please have a look at my next reply.

3rd January 2009, 11:02	#31
SumitB BHPian Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Shillong Posts: 986 Thanked: 263 Times	Going through the spreadsheet, I fail to justify your choice for going in for the petrol (considering the savings). Just re-look at the TDI and take a test drive and then decide. You never know, you may create situations which will need you to drive for longer distances if you go in for the TDI. Best of Luck. Last edited by SumitB : 3rd January 2009 at 11:03.
	() Thanks

3rd January 2009, 11:14	#32
greenhorn Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: KL-01 Posts: 7,744 Thanked: 4,387 Times View My Garage	if you can stand teh nvh, by all means get the tdi. You'll notice that you'll end up using the car a lot more than you would with the saffire PS: the TDI is a tried and tested engine, used in the indica/indigo series for ages. parts and expertise for the engine should be cheap and plenty!
	() Thanks

3rd January 2009, 11:27	#33
condor Distinguished - BHPian Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Speed-brkr City Posts: 15,863 Thanked: 16,006 Times View My Garage	@Logical, was having a look at the sheet. 350km a month is very very conservative, something like doing 10km a day. Normal running will be much more. Just wait & watch once you get the car. So I changed the running to 1000km a month, which changed the values to 8.3 years of ownership. The sheets shows the savings to now be 98k. Two more points : * Maintenance costs will increase over time. In this case, you will have to do time-bound servicing, paying same rate as distance-based servicing. * It would make sense to calculate using down-payment as reference, instead of loan amount. If you do this, then the savings are shown to be about 1.3L Last edited by condor : 3rd January 2009 at 11:30.
	() Thanks

3rd January 2009, 11:51	#34
greenhorn Senior - BHPian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: KL-01 Posts: 7,744 Thanked: 4,387 Times View My Garage	I'm not sure if we can use the same yardstick for maintenence here. the saffire , since it uses fiat parts - engine spares may be costlier/in short supply or both, just like a lot of fiat owners know now. on the other hand , the parts should be cheaply available since they are from an existing tata engine.
	() Thanks

14th January 2009, 19:18	#40
sushantr5 BHPian Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Nuremberg Posts: 670 Thanked: 582 Times View My Garage	It will be wise to go for Diesel Engines. These days diesel engines are very maintenance free. You will get advantage of per km economy and price of diesel will give you comfort. People think that why should I spend more on diesel because of their preconception they think that diesel engines requires more maintenance. And they go for petrol. But by looking the price of petrol they feel that I should not use the car. One of my friend has a car but comes on bike to office because he feels that he spending a lot on petrol. Then buddy why should you bought a car if u cant afford it's running. Then these car runs very less kms and will have less maintenace. But A Diesel car guy would use car like anything and will enjoy his life. That's important.
	() Thanks

14th January 2009, 19:20	#41
sushantr5 BHPian Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Nuremberg Posts: 670 Thanked: 582 Times View My Garage	And in future if we get out of stock of fossil fuel then Diesel have alternative in the form of Biodiesel...
	() Thanks

24th January 2009, 09:42	#42
revhappy BHPian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Singapore Posts: 330 Thanked: 15 Times	@Logical: So finally what did you decide mate?
	() Thanks

24th January 2009, 23:03	#43
nukeblitz BHPian Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Hyderabad/Mysor Posts: 158 Thanked: 63 Times	I'm buying an indica vista too and have a similar dilemma. However I'm pretty confident that the TDi's far better than the safire. I have an estimated usage of 1000 km per month which is more than Logical's 400. But I still believe that even for Logical's usage, the TDi is better. Here are a few differences between the two and my views on them. TDi has slightly more power per tonne than the SAFIRE. TDi has a LOT more torque per tonne than the SAFIRE. TDi will give better mileage than the SAFIRE and it's a diesel too. TDi comes with 175/65 R14s while the SAFIRE comes with 175/70 R13. Believe me when i say that the R14s are SOO much better looking. TDi is a TATA engine where as the SAFIRE is sourced from FIAT. This may mean spares might be cheaper and easier to find for the TATA. Might be wrong on this one. SAFIRE is cheaper than the TDi by about Rs. 40000 on road. SAFIRE is quieter and more refined than the TDi. But I feel that with the excellent sound-proofing in the Vists, this really shouldn't be much of a concern. SAFIRE comes with Fiat's C510 star gear box while TDi comes with Tata's TA65 gearbox. I believe both are cable operated but Fiat's is likely to be better. I'm not sure about this one as I haven't had the chance to try the TA65 yet. Anybody who has experience here?? Conclusion I feel that the SAFIRE is under powered for the Vista and doesn't give amazing fuel efficiency figures either. It may be more refined but that doesn't really turn the fight around for it. I feel that the TDi is well worth the 40,000 extra you pay for it. And one more thing. The brochure says that tilt adjustable steering is available only on the SAFIRE and QUADRAJET but I've read here on these forums that it's available on the TDi too. Interesting fact. Difference between Terra TDi and aqua TDi is 16000 while difference between Terra SAFIRE and Aqua SAFIRE is 26000.
	() Thanks

27th January 2009, 14:44	#44
vahss_11 BHPian Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Thane(Mumbai) Posts: 118 Thanked: 8 Times	Even I am looking to buy indica vista Quadrajet ,, is my choice good? i mean TDI or QJ ??
	() Thanks