[womanonwheels]

I would go for spark any day. Alto is too common.

[AvonA7]

Originally Posted by kiku007

Primary reason here -->

As you have said, this is an educative exercise, there will be arguements and counter arguments

If Sales and FE are the only way to decide on a car, why do we need online forums my friend? Auto Forums are there to throw light on the merits and de-merits of every car.

@kiku007 I agree with you.
Even though the question asked is "Which car do you like?" but reading the posts there are lots of information that came out regarding these 2 cars from the real owners only because members shared their point of view openly.

@harishnayak : your wish regarding starting this thread is successful. A new buyer with these 2 cars in mind would have enough info regarding these 2 cars reading this thread. FE, Performance, Comfort, Maintenance, A** everything came out while justifying individual choice.

Recently one of my friend bought Alto Flash. He had both Alto & Spark in mind, but ultimately went for Alto as his 2 imp criteria were FE and resale value. Each car is good in its own way and as pointed out earlier in the thread that "perception" about Maruti & GM is the main difference. Thats why Alto sells in 20K/month and Spark around 3-4K/month (almost half of 10yr old Santro)

[s3va]

Originally Posted by kiku007

It has become easy for people to pass a comments like, "It's Korean don't buy", "It's a Korean in american clothes, don't buy it" in a online forum and when someone questions the rationale? They go about like, "It's my personal choice, that's all". Why don't you keep it to your personal diary then?

You have put it quite well my friend.

Either have a rationale or practical experience or strong theoretical knowledge confident enough to defend the pragmatic ones ! With these, views never go flaccid !

By the way, Spark is Korean too . So if there is someone saying Koreans are not fit to make cars, please justify !

[kiku007]

Originally Posted by Gansan

Fair enough! But I never said don't buy, I merely said it was my personal bias, which implies I know it to be unreasonable! If I can be called "part of a herd" in an online forum for my choice of car, I suppose I am entitled to air my opinion too!

Yes, you never said, 'Don't buy'. I stand corrected. But then what's the point of sharing a personal biased view?

Regarding the 'herd' mentality. Lets have a look at a couple of posts,

Originally Posted by kiku007

M800 < Zen < Alto < A-Star

Matiz < Spark < Beat

Both cars which have their respective replacements also selling in the same market and still we discuss on which of these Old ladies in new clothes are better

Having said that, Car for car the Spark is a LOT better car for the asking price.

However when we bring Brand Value and FE, Alto wins! Who can beat Maruti in that?

A good amount of Brand Value comes from this,

Originally Posted by kiku007

MORE people buy Maruti because MORE people buy Maruti.

People don't stop buying their Sell By Date cars (M800, Alto, Omni) >> So they don't kill the unsafe stale models >> So their resale value never comes down.

The herd mentality is a big dampener to the growth of Indian Automobile Industry as a mature market.

Now you agreed for mordenizing the Indian Car Market but not ready to put the foot front to be part of the change.

Originally Posted by Gansan

I am all for modernizing the Indian car market, but really not interested in being the harbinger of that change! Let others do it, I would happily follow! Me only interested in most bang for least bucks, resale value included!

Then why worry being part of the, 'herd'?

If people like us don't show the exit doors for cars like the M800 and Alto which are comprehensively outclassed by modern cars in terms of occupent safety, refinement, driveability, space etc. What's the point Gansan Sir? Do we wait for the Govt. to stop these cars sighting safety and emission norms?

[harishnayak]

Originally Posted by kiku007

Primary reason here -->




As you have said, this is an educative exercise, there will be arguements and counter arguments

Agreed and it should be educative and pointing in the right direction for others to take a good piece of advice home.

Originally Posted by misquitas

The idea of an auto forum, in my opinion, is to welcome as many people on board to give as many views as possible, whether they are palatable to others or not.

I believe all views (whether technical, emotional, nostalgic, etc) should be welcome, as lone as they refrain from being offensive to others. Else, the purpose of this forum would be defeated
Melvyn

I think all the participants here have pretty much been able to contribute to a very large extent of course with some mild arguements which in turn is an educational exercise in itself.

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by AvonA7

Recently one of my friend bought Alto Flash. He had both Alto & Spark in mind, but ultimately went for Alto as his 2 imp criteria were FE and resale value. Each car is good in its own way and as pointed out earlier in the thread that "perception" about Maruti & GM is the main difference.

@kiku
The above post sums up my reason for selecting Alto over Spark. Even if I want a more modern car, I will first check out Maruti only before the others. If it is herd mentality, so be it!

Originally Posted by s3va

By the way, Spark is Korean too . So if there is someone saying Koreans are not fit to make cars, please justify !

So are the Chinese, but I would not touch their cars even with a barge pole! I can't justify it. It is a gut feel, that's all. That is why I said it is a bias. I just feel Japanese technology to be superior to Korean, period. I may be wrong, of course!

[kannan666]

Spark for sure ! Alto may have better access when it comes to service centers though !

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by kiku007

If people like us don't show the exit doors for cars like the M800 and Alto which are comprehensively outclassed by modern cars in terms of occupent safety, refinement, driveability, space etc.

While M800 is not a subject of this thread, the emission norms have already forced it out of the cities and in the future will be out of the towns too. But again, look at the Nano, a supposedly modern car in that segment. What occupant safety/refinement/drivability does it provide over the M800 ? But we laud the car, due to just a bit of extra space and just due to being a new car.

But to say that the Alto is "comprehensively outclassed", is really over the top. And outclassed by which modern cars ? In what way does the Spark outclass the Alto in occupant safety ? In having a lone driver airbag on the top version which no one buys ? If we look at proper occupant safety, except for the i20 with 6 airbags, all other cars should be thrown out, including many sedans in even higher segments.

And as far as space, refinement and drivability goes, it is relative. While Spark is surely better than the Alto on these counts, there are so many cars that will outclass the Spark - actually most other cars in the market. So, can we make a case of throwing out the Spark too ?

And while we are at it, how about throwing out the decade old Santro/Ikon/Octavia/Accent etc ? Or do they outclass the current set of cars that replaced them ?

Originally Posted by kiku007

Do we wait for the Govt. to stop these cars sighting safety and emission norms?

Like in most countries, legislation is surely required to enforce safety/emission norms. In India, emission is taken care of with the BS-IV, but we could surely do with safety norms - either make airbags compulsory on all cars or atleast give as options on all trim levels.

Originally Posted by s3va

So if there is someone saying Koreans are not fit to make cars, please justify !

It is not about Koreans not being fit to make cars. It's about certain qualities that are unique to cars made by various nations. In India, Korean cars are about a better overall appeal - great interiors, features etc. So, for people who look for these, this is a good fit. But one place where they fail is in FE - as compared to the Japanese cars. So for someone who values efficiency, Korean cars would be a no-no. Justification enough ?

[s3va]

Originally Posted by Gansan

So are the Chinese, but I would not touch their cars even with a barge pole! I can't justify it. It is a gut feel, that's all. That is why I said it is a bias. I just feel Japanese technology to be superior to Korean, period. I may be wrong, of course!

Exactly, gut feel is what I was trying to point here ! leaving aside the geeks or technical experts, opinions from other various owners would tend to bias towards their own brand.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

It is not about Koreans not being fit to make cars. It's about certain qualities that are unique to cars made by various nations. In India, Korean cars are about a better overall appeal - great interiors, features etc. So, for people who look for these, this is a good fit. But one place where they fail is in FE - as compared to the Japanese cars. So for someone who values efficiency, Korean cars would be a no-no. Justification enough ?

Not enough.. Since you didnt quote any examples for your justification, let me quote my own personal experience. The tenure through which I drove a Santro, I have been able to obtain an FE of 13-15 kmpl in city, with A/C and spirited driving. on highways the figure used to toggle betweeen 15-18 kmpl. i recently had a chat with the present owner, and the figures dont vary much. So isnt that FE good enough ?

sorry for going highly OT here.

Nevertheless the poll speaks for itself as an answer to the thread question !

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by s3va

Not enough. Since you didnt quote any examples for your justification

You can get examples from the reviews on the forum. Anyway some from my office circle - all figures are Chennai-city / highway, with 100% a/c and stock tyres :

Getz1.1 : 11kmpl / 15kmpl
Estilo1.1 : 13kmpl / 18kmpl // Older one - not K-series
i10 AT : 8kmpl // This one is B'lore city figure.
Getz1.3 : 10kmpl / 14kmpl
Spark : 12kmpl / 18kmpl
Accent1.5 : 10kmpl / 14kmpl
Baleno1.6 : 12kmpl / 16kmpl

Originally Posted by s3va

Nevertheless the poll speaks for itself as an answer to the thread question !

That it does. But do you really need a poll to know that answer ? The Spark is simply a better car overall than the Alto.

[s3va]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

But one place where they fail is in FE - as compared to the Japanese cars.

I was looking for your justification or examples for the above statement of yours, was not interested to know the FE of the cars available in the market. But still the only car that is jap in your list is the baleno and the FE doesnt score over any other korean cars in picture here ie Spark and the Santro that I talked about, though frankly it doesnt make sense to compare the cars that are in different segments. And FE requirements are subjective, so it would be best to leave it at the buyers purview. My whole point of mentioning about Korean cars having a different image was also the result of a similar bashing in another thread. Also there is a lot of bashin going around for Skoda too, why, purely for its A.S.S aspect. So if there is a bash there needs to be a proper backup, is what my whole point about. With this i rest my case

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by s3va

I was looking for your justification or examples for the above statement of yours, was not interested to know the FE of the cars available in the market. But still the only car that is jap in your list is the baleno and the FE doesnt score over any other korean cars in picture here ie Spark and the Santro that I talked about, though frankly it doesnt make sense to compare the cars that are in different segments.

Funny. You ask for examples and when they are given, you ignore it or give lame excuses. How do I support my statement without giving FE of Jap and Korean cars ?

In the list you can see the Estilo (Jap) which can be compared against the i10/Getz1.1/Getz1.3 etc that are Korean cars in the same segment. See the difference in FE ?

Also, the Baleno can be compared against the Accent - same segment. You can see the difference there too. And isn't it odd that you compare the Baleno's FE with that of the Spark/Santro - atleast 2 segments lower ? Even then, the Baleno roundly beats the Getz1.1 and Getz1.3 which are smaller-engined cars with less power.

You wanted a reason for why someone would avoid Korean cars. FE it is for me. Same applies to American cars.

Originally Posted by harishnayak

Agreed and it should be educative and pointing in the right direction for others to take a good piece of advice home.

While I did think initially that this thread was pointless (since its a no-brainer that Spark is better), there were surely some takeaways.

Especially, the thin price difference between Alto and Spark was new to me. If as Hammerhead says, it is only 18K* that separates the AltoLXi and SparkLS, I for one see immense value in going for the latter. More so, if you add the 3-year free maintenance plan of Spark.

Actually at anything above 3lakhs, the Alto-Lxi is overpriced. Ideally, they should be pegging the current Alto-Lxi at 2.7-ish and maybe an Alto-Vxi (1litre K-series) at 3lakhs, which could be compared against Spark.

*the price-part would be clear when I checkout the Spark/Estilo/A-star this weekend for my in-laws.

[Gansan]

Originally Posted by s3va

Nevertheless the poll speaks for itself as an answer to the thread question !

If the entire "herd" in the forum decides to vote, that poll can go for a toss in no time!

I have an affinity for Jap cars, not necessarily Maruti. I would love to buy a Jazz or Innova if I could afford! But at this point of time I could not. Somehow Korean and American brands don't attract me.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Especially, the thin price difference between Alto and Spark was new to me. If as Hammerhead says, it is only 18K* that separates the AltoLXi and SparkLS, I for one see immense value in going for the latter. More so, if you add the 3-year free maintenance plan of Spark.

Actually at anything above 3lakhs, the Alto-Lxi is overpriced. Ideally, they should be pegging the current Alto-Lxi at 2.7-ish and maybe an Alto-Vxi (1litre K-series) at 3lakhs, which could be compared against Spark.

When I bought my Alto LXi in June'09, it was Rs 2.70 lakhs ex-showroom and a round 3 lakhs on the road. I spent another 20k on accessories, under chassis painting and two year extended warranty. Just completed the third service today, and I too have not spent anything more than the cost of oil and filter so far.

A Spark with similar trim cost 20k more that time, and I would have had to spend a further 20k on accessories if I bought it. It was the height of the GM bankruptcy issue then, and these two combined with my bias for Jap cars decided the issue.

[HammerHead]

Originally Posted by Gansan

A Spark with similar trim cost 20k more that time

Thanks for that information. I always thought that the price difference between Spark and Alto was never more than 25k for similar spec. variant.

[kiku007]

@ Supremebaleno - Do you think that ABS and Airbags are not the only safety features? Atleast when I look at Chevy and Maruti websites, I see that Chevy has some literature on Safety,

Chevrolet India

For Maruti Alto I don't see anything worth mentioning apart from the Side-Impact beams. Is there something more which you know of? I'll be happy to know.

IIRC the Indian Alto was launched in India in 2000 and stopped being exported to Europe in 2004/2005 and the second generation Matiz (Spark) came in 2005. I believe that a newer car to be more safe. Do contest this claim if you may.

Throwing out old cars - Absolutely. Why have cars that are not relevant to the current days? Coming to the Spark. Like I said earlier, the second gen came in 2005. Do you feel it's not relevant to the current day?

You have brought Nano into the picture. My only knowledge on it is what I read on the net, books. Haven't got a chance to drive one. So not fair to speak about what it's worth.

However what I can tell you is, Tata has come up with a low cost car at around 2L on-road price (The decently speced ones). We have read enough on the innovations that have come up in the course of this one of a kind project. End of the day, when the product comes to the market, we compare it to the M800 and Alto perhaps and feel that at the asking price,the Marutis are a better deal. The Nano is crippled because of this. Had the M800 and Alto not been there, I reckon we would have seen more development activities on the small car market.

P.S: I have booked a Spark to replace the Ikon as our second car for city runs. The budget was around 3.5Land at 3.57L On-road the Spark LS is incredible value.