[fuel_addict]

Originally Posted by KarthikK

P.S - I drove a colleague's previous gen Swift VDi and the test drive vehicle of the current gen ZDi. The new Swift D doesn't seem to give the same turbo'ed rush as the previous gen VDi. The new Swift seems a bit more linear in acceleration and throttle response. Am I the only one who feels this way? Am I imagining things or does anyone else feel the same way? *lol*

That's what they say about the turbo kick in the new Swift. I won't exactly call it linear but it seems tamer than the old Swift (BS III & earlier) based on reports. I haven't driven the older Swift D but did have a chance to TD the Ritz VDi (BS IV ) and the turbo kick was exactly how the new Swift feels. Drive-ability in crawling traffic is better in the new Swift IMO.

I agree with your decision to go with the Punto 90 HP sports edition. What is the OTR price in Bangalore?

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by S2!!!

Wow. Is the new Swift thaaaat good that people are willing to wait for nearly a year for their cars to be delivered to them?? Or does Maruti Suzuki custom build each Swift to the owner's whims and fancies?? I can't understand why anyone would wait for something for so long which is not even that special/ exclusive.

1 question I always had when I see the hatchback threads. Is the Vista that bad/ poor quality that no one ever considers it?? It has soft touch plastics, the same 1.3L diesel engine, much more space than any other and it yet is never mentioned in any one's consideration list.

In 2010 Jan, I sold my Santro, and wanted to go in for a diesel hatchback. Tried the entire range of options then, namely Swift, I20, Figo, Punto, Vista. Loved the Punto best of all, but reliability concerns made me stay away. Figo was cheaper and had the rear wiper which I so badly wanted, but the car was sluggish and somehow, Mom never liked the car, so that was out of the equation. I20 brakes were a concern, and the price was way too high. Vista-did'nt like it. Booked the swift Vdi with ABS in May and waited for delivery till Aug end. Everytime, I had to cope with the Mumbai monsoons without a car, I cursed myself for booking a Maruti. Finally, after waiting and more waiting, I booked a Vento too in sheer desperation, and then voila, next week, Maruti calls and informs me of the impending arrival of my car.

Going to be 2 years now, and man, everytime I floor the pedal, I have a silly grin on my face. Ofcourse I hate the fact that there were no airbags, no rear wiper and defogger, but hey, the car itself is a beauty.

Its not customized, but it sure feels like Maruti is pushing all the right buttons with the Swift. I do agree that the waiting period now is ridiculous at 1 year, but believe me, no other car gives you this performance with reliability and the great service network. Oh, another thing, I bought the car for 6.4lacs on road, bombay and am still getting offers of 5.5lacs 2 years and 30k kms down the line. Find me another car that can beat that.

[shashank.nk]

Originally Posted by KarthikK

Maruti dealers are no angels here in Bangalore. There are lots of politics which go on during allotment. People bribe salesmen to jump the priority queues and get deliveries earlier than others. There are some others who use "influence" to arm twist dealers into giving them the cars earlier, because they claim to know some bigshot. For normal people like us who don't want to play these politics, we have to wait long. Very long. Hence the decision now to shift base.

+1. Mine must be some kind of record. Booking in March 2012, delivery in March 2013!!

P.S - I drove a colleague's previous gen Swift VDi and the test drive vehicle of the current gen ZDi. The new Swift D doesn't seem to give the same turbo'ed rush as the previous gen VDi. The new Swift seems a bit more linear in acceleration and throttle response. Am I the only one who feels this way? Am I imagining things or does anyone else feel the same way? *lol*

You're right. Maruti dealers engage in all sort of malpractices, so if you don't keep a tab on your booking your car delivery will get delayed.

If you wait and take delivery it'll indeed be some sort of a record

The new Swift has a linear power delivery compared to the older one. Its mentioned in our review as well.

[scofield]

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

Loved the Punto best of all, but reliability concerns made me stay away.

everytime I floor the pedal, I have a silly grin on my face.

Find me another car that can beat that.

Lalvaz, nothing to offend you however could you just let me know what made you think punto is unreliable - the engine in it is same as swift also mechanically Punto is far more superior then the swift which results in better handling ,superior grip and very engaging driving feel of the car,moreover the suspension is very strong and doesn't queaks at all. I have covered 31 K kms in my 90hp within 18 months and boy mechanically its just the way its is on the first day and moreover Puntos are not breakdown friendly if taken care at regular intervals and maintained as per company recommended standards.Just go through epiccenter's thread where in 2.5 years he has clocked 1.3 lac kms and what he has to say about Punto, also he sold of his previous generation swift diesel for Punto.

If you happen to be in Pune I shall offer my car for a drive , that small grin will be converted into a big hearted smile as what the 90hp beast is capable of and its combination with the RD tuning box.Swifts might give you a early lead of say just 5 mtrs but when the song starts swoosh its 10 mtrs behind and behind and behind.

Swift zdi is a very good car , however not that worthy also for which one one has to wait for ages for it and then be one of the swifts in the sea of swifts in India. Swift is only considered by masses here - is because of A.S.S. + brilliant diesel engine and a homely name which Maruti Suzuki enjoys here in India like fiat enjoyed earlier.Its all time game :-).

However, if you just compare the same in European nations and Brazil then Puntos , Polos and Corsas are the hatchbacks for them. Suzuki Swift doesn't even stand anywhere .

[KarthikK]

Originally Posted by fuel_addict

I agree with your decision to go with the Punto 90 HP sports edition. What is the OTR price in Bangalore?

OTR price in Bangalore for Punto Sports : 9,00,230
Insurance free : -27,000
RSA + Extended warranty free : -7000
Corporate discount : -12,000
Loyalty bonus in lieu of exchange bonus (since I don't have any exchange car), for buying a Fiat again!! : -20,000
Free accessories : worth 10,000 (won't be given as cash discount)
Final deal = 8,34,000. Plus they give Rs. 10,000 worth accessories free (reverse parking sensor + extra broad sport decals + rear spoiler)
Booking amount : 50,000
Delivery timeline : 15-20 days from the date of booking.

Swift ZDi :
On road price in Bangalore - 8,30,800
Discounts : Nil
Final deal : 8,32,000 (they are charging 1200 for footmats and mud flaps as 'mandatory accessories'.. cheapos)
Free Acessories : Car perfume worth 200 and Tissue paper box worth 100
Delivery timeline : unknown. Depends on when the almighty answers your prayers. Maybe next week, maybe next month, maybe next year, no one knows

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

The new Swift has a linear power delivery compared to the older one. Its mentioned in our review as well.

I'd missed that part completely in the review. Thanks for pointing it out. I thought I was hallucinating during the test drive to feel that it was somewhat less 'beast'ish than the older Swift D. Later I thought the test drive vehicle was not maintained well. *lol* So it was working as per the design.

[fuel_addict]

Originally Posted by KarthikK

OTR price in Bangalore for Punto Sports : 9,00,230
Insurance free : -27,000
RSA + Extended warranty free : -7000
Corporate discount : -12,000
Loyalty bonus in lieu of exchange bonus (since I don't have any exchange car), for buying a Fiat again!! : -20,000
Free accessories : worth 10,000 (won't be given as cash discount)
Final deal = 8,34,000. Plus they give Rs. 10,000 worth accessories free (reverse parking sensor + extra broad sport decals + rear spoiler)
Booking amount : 50,000
Delivery timeline : 15-20 days from the date of booking.

Swift ZDi :
On road price in Bangalore - 8,30,800
Discounts : Nil
Final deal : 8,32,000 (they are charging 1200 for footmats and mud flaps as 'mandatory accessories'.. cheapos)
Free Acessories : Car perfume worth 200 and Tissue paper box worth 100
Delivery timeline : unknown. Depends on when the almighty answers your prayers. Maybe next week, maybe next month, maybe next year, no one knows

I'd missed that part completely in the review. Thanks for pointing it out. I thought I was hallucinating during the test drive to feel that it was somewhat less 'beast'ish than the older Swift D. Later I thought the test drive vehicle was not maintained well. *lol* So it was working as per the design.

8.34 L for the 90 HP Punto vs 8.32 L for the ZDi, that's a no brainier in favour of the Punto then. You get much more for the same price. And a committed delivery time too. All the best. My experience with Maruti regarding the accessories was identical. Nothing was given free, not even the Ganesh idol. I was promised that but it never happened.

[shashank.nk]

Agree with fueladdict. If you're convinced on the Punto 90 go ahead with your decision! Also regarding the discounts, i went through your deal in detail, IIRC i got a similar deal in Oct 11 for the Punto 90, so look like this is the best one can manage. Not much use waiting, but you can double check with SA.

Maruti is planning on re-opening the plant next week, but if it still takes 3-4 months for your car to come then it doesn't make much sense to wait. Just ask the Maruti chaps if there's any chance of having it earlier,before you go ahead with the Punto.

Whenever you plan to get the RD chip done, leave me a PM i'll accompany you and get one for my Polo

[KarthikK]

Originally Posted by shashank.nk

Agree with fueladdict. If you're convinced on the Punto 90 go ahead with your decision! Also regarding the discounts, i went through your deal in detail, IIRC i got a similar deal in Oct 11 for the Punto 90, so look like this is the best one can manage. Not much use waiting, but you can double check with SA.

Maruti is planning on re-opening the plant next week, but if it still takes 3-4 months for your car to come then it doesn't make much sense to wait. Just ask the Maruti chaps if there's any chance of having it earlier,before you go ahead with the Punto.

Whenever you plan to get the RD chip done, leave me a PM i'll accompany you and get one for my Polo

Sorry for noticing this reply late . Weighing the odds, I think the Punto sport makes more sense now than another long wait, so it will be the Punto 90 in October. Maruti is still clueless about the production restart date. I'm leaving the 10k booking amount with the Maruti showroom till then, just in case any miracle happens within October 1st. Come October, I will pick up the Punto Sport and take the Swift booking amount refund. Chapter closed.

Either way I'll be picking up 2 things after delivery -
- RaceDynamics DieselTronic Pro (the one with 4 switchable maps)
- Michelin Primacy LC 195/60R15 swap for all 5 tyres
- K&N air filter to ensure better breathing for the increased power delivery with RD box
I'll PM you when I get my RD chip fixed. We can go together and haggle them for some group discounts . Buy 1 get 1 free. Wishful thinking, eh?

[shashank.nk]

Originally Posted by KarthikK

Either way I'll be picking up 2 things after delivery -
- RaceDynamics DieselTronic Pro (the one with 4 switchable maps)
- Michelin Primacy LC 195/60R15 swap for all 5 tyres
- K&N air filter to ensure better breathing for the increased power delivery with RD box
I'll PM you when I get my RD chip fixed. We can go together and haggle them for some group discounts . Buy 1 get 1 free. Wishful thinking, eh?

OT
Haha. I'll take the free one then
Apart from the discounts, i want to test the box on my car for a few days before i put my money, so if we go together we can try and convince them to give us a day or two before we decide on the box.

I'll also change the air filter, may be green cotton as i heard they're better than K&N

[adits]

Originally Posted by KarthikK

Toyota Etios Liva D - checked it and ruled out. I know I am going to be flamed for this *lol*, but here are my enthusiast-like views

- extremely under-equipped. Why don't they have a Liva V.D? Why only a G.D? Fear of cannibalization of Etios sedan V.D? I still don't understand why they do this.

I know you have already decided but did hear about the no VD option on the Liva and decided if I could come up with a logical reason as to why Toyota would do that.

If you look at the petrol Livas, the V version gets the following additional to the G version.

1. Front Fogs
2. Rear Wash/Wipe
3. Rear Defogger
4. 12 spoke alloys while the G versions get Full Wheel Caps
5. Roof mounted Antenna
6. Chome Accent on Boot
7. Tacho
8. 2-DIN audio system with USB/AUX
9. Fabric Insert in Door Trim
10. Chome Shift Knob (Available on G SP and GD SP)
11. Dual SRS Airbags (Available on G SP and GD SP)
12. ABS (Available on G SP and GD)
13. EBD (Available on G SP and GD)
14. Driver Seatbelt warning (Available on G SP and GD SP)

For these additional features, the V version costs 564,071 while the G version costs 464,040 making the difference about 1L ex-showroom

The GD costs 572,651 ex-showroom so the VD should cost 650,000 (if we reduce 22K for the ABS and EBD already available). The corresponding prices for the SP versions are 512,271 for the G SP and 603, 939 for the GD SP

The Etios GD costs 666,838 while the VD costs 719,817. This means a Liva VD would pit it straight against the Etios GD.

So would a customer like a slightly lower specced sedan at just 25K (16K ex-showroom) over the price of a hatch? In India, definitely. which will most likely make the VD version stillborn or cannibalize the GD version Etios, which from what I can see on the road, seems to be making the bulk of the Etios Diesel sales.

TBHPians view on this?

Originally Posted by KarthikK

- the GD SP comes with Airbags and ABS, but seriously what else does it have? When all the other car makers out there are providing every possible feature under the sun for 8L, I find no reason why Toyota should sell a bare-bones Liva G.D for 7+L rupees. It is horrifyingly overpriced in my opinion.

As regards the pricing, the Ritz VDI (ABS) which has similar features costs about 10K less OTR than the GD SP and does not have airbags (even as an option) which makes both the Maruti diesel hatches in this segment much more expensive.


Finally, I do agree with many TBHPians on why manufacturers seem to strip the diesel variants of features that are available on the petrol variants of the same model, most of all in hatches. I remember GTO starting a thread on this but do not have the link.

[KarthikK]

Originally Posted by adits

I know you have already decided but did hear about the no VD option on the Liva and decided if I could come up with a logical reason as to why Toyota would do that.

If you look at the petrol Livas, the V version gets the following additional to the G version....

...
For these additional features, the V version costs 564,071 while the G version costs 464,040 making the difference about 1L ex-showroom

true adits. I was referring to the situation where if I were hell bent on a Toyota diesel hatch, I don't even have an option to pay more and get a fully spec'ed hatch, while other brands do offer this option of a top end diesel hatch. My rant was based on that aspect and directed at Toyota. No offense to Liva buyers as such. It is still a fantastic car with amazing interior space and comfort. If there was a V.D, I could have considered it.

The Etios GD costs 666,838 while the VD costs 719,817. This means a Liva VD would pit it straight against the Etios GD.

So would a customer like a slightly lower specced sedan at just 25K (16K ex-showroom) over the price of a hatch? In India, definitely. which will most likely make the VD version stillborn or cannibalize the GD version Etios, which from what I can see on the road, seems to be making the bulk of the Etios Diesel sales.

Well I have a slightly different opinion here. The Etios sedan G.D is mostly purchased by fleet operators for taxis. Irrespective of whether there is a Liva V.D or not, fleet operators will prefer the G.D sedan, simply because of the boot space and because the bells and whistles of a V.D will hardly ever be used in a taxi.

The Liva V.D should ideally be targeting buyers of i20 Sportz/Asta, Swift ZDi, Punto Emotion/Sports, Fabia TDI Elegance / Polo TDI Highline, etc. How much does it cost them to have another variant being produced? Hardly anything.

If Swift ZDi can now co-exist with Swift DZire VDi and LDi at much lesser prices, and Vista and Manza can co-exist, no reason why the Etios siblings cannot do the same. The target audiences for a top end diesel hatch and a low-end diesel sedan are different in my opinion.

As regards the pricing, the Ritz VDI (ABS) which has similar features costs about 10K less OTR than the GD SP and does not have airbags (even as an option) which makes both the Maruti diesel hatches in this segment much more expensive.

+1 True, I completely agree. Even the Swift ZDi is overpriced at 8.3 on road, just doesn't deserve that much. But quite frankly, I have no choice if I am an enthusiast who wants a car with a proper 4-pot diesel engine, which churns out enough power to keep me happy, is reasonably fun to drive, is decently kitted with bells and whistles, and still delivers some decent fuel efficiency figures for daily runs. Only the Punto Sport and Swift ZDi offer me all of the above. But now Maruti doesn't offer me the Swift ZDi

[adits]

Originally Posted by KarthikK

true adits. I was referring to the situation where if I were hell bent on a Toyota diesel hatch, I don't even have an option to pay more and get a fully spec'ed hatch, while other brands do offer this option of a top end diesel hatch. My rant was based on that aspect. No offense to Liva buyers as such.

Agreed. However, this seems to be the problem with many manufacturers, not only toyota, especially for hatches that the diesel versions are lesser specced than the petrols. Ritz is one example, no ZDI. Someone please post the link of GTO's thread on this.

Originally Posted by KarthikK

Well I have a slightly different opinion here. The Etios sedan G.D is mostly purchased by fleet operators for taxis. Irrespective of whether there is a Liva V.D or not, fleet operators will prefer the G.D sedan, simply because of the boot space and because the bells and whistles of a V.D will hardly ever be used in a taxi.

Fleet Cabs, definitely. I actually have seen many Etios GD driven by private persons (the same reason why the Z versions of Marutis sell much less numbers than the L or D versions). Again, this is my personal observation of the vehicles on the road and my spouse's complaint that she can see many Etios' but very few Livas. Looks like Toyota seriously need to get their pricing and speccing correct for the Liva.

Originally Posted by KarthikK

The Liva V.D should ideally be targeting buyers of i20 Sportz, Swift ZDi, Punto Emotion and Punto Sports, Fabia TDI Elegance / Polo TDI Highline, etc. How much does it cost them to have another variant being produced? Hardly anything


If Swift ZDi can now co-exist with Swift DZire VDi and LDi at much lesser prices, and Vista and Manza can co-exist, no reason why the Etios siblings cannot do the same. The target audiences for a top end diesel hatch and a low-end diesel sedan are different in my opinion.

If you look at an ordinary person (i.e. not an enthusiast like we have on TBHP), they would generally prefer a sedan over a hatch at almost the same price.

Originally Posted by KarthikK

True. Even the Swift ZDi is overpriced at 8.3 on road. But quite frankly, I have no choice if I am an enthusiast who wants a car with a proper 4-pot diesel engine, which churns out enough power to keep me happy, is reasonably fun to drive, is decently kitted with bells and whistles, and still delivers some decent fuel efficiency figures for daily runs. Only the Punto Sport and Swift ZDi offer me all of the above. But now Maruti doesn't offer me the Swift ZDi

I think we agree that the diesel hatch space has no single model that ticks all boxes (enthusiast or otherwise) and is priced reasonably. I am having a hard time justifying even 7L for a diesel hatch. This seems to be the minimum OTR you pay for a bare bones diesel hatch with at least airbags and ABS.

[KarthikK]

The Maruti showroom is still giving inconsistent answers about when my 8-month old Swift booking will materialize into a delivery. The earliest they can assure me today is Jan/Feb 2013 now, which is quite unacceptable to me, and gives me a feeling that these Maruti guys think customers will take anything the dealers do, lying down. There are still customers with "influence" who got ZDi deliveries last month, inspite of all the production stops, which proves that a lot goes on behind the scenes. My priority number assigned is #1, but there are still people who bypass the queue by paying bribes or using influence. For someone like me who is a normal guy without contacts or wanting to go the dirty route, the wait has been long. Very long. Changing the dealer was not an option, because the wait will start all over again, without any guarantees of delivery date.

I'm sorry to say, but although I would have liked to own a Swift ZDi in blue color (which would have been the perfect successor to my Swift ZXi blue), thanks to the dealer's attitude and apathy, Maruti's repeated strike woes, the ever-inflating price tag and the never-ending waiting period, the Swift's reincarnation will not take place in my garage.

Tomorrow, with a heavy heart, I will be going to the showroom and initiating cancellation of my Swift ZDi booking. That not only excludes the Swift ZDi from my future purchase, but perhaps this whole episode will also exclude Maruti cars from my garage in the future as well. Adieu to MSIL, its products and its politics for me!

There are better options to choose from, better brands and dealers who show transparency and respect customers putting down 8-9L of hard-earned money on their cars.

This past weekend I did some rather extensive test drives of all possible / available Diesel hatches in the country in my quest for a sporty pocket rocket. No prizes for guessing which hatch won the battle (yes it is miles ahead of the Swift ZDi in every aspect), but tonight I'll put up a comprehensive, unbiased post spanning my set of observations about each car, what I liked/disliked and why I rejected/approved the car(s).

[HighOctane]

Originally Posted by KarthikK

This past weekend I did some rather extensive test drives of all possible / available Diesel hatches in the country in my quest for a sporty pocket rocket. No prizes for guessing which hatch won the battle (yes it is miles ahead of the Swift ZDi in every aspect), but tonight I'll put up a comprehensive, unbiased post spanning my set of observations about each car, what I liked/disliked and why I rejected/approved the car(s).

Sorry about your desire to have another Swift, this time ddis.

I am guessing you have set eyes on igen i20 Sportz. Are you dumping idea of having another Fiat ? The Punto 90hp?

[KarthikK]

Originally Posted by HighOctane

Sorry about your desire to have another Swift, this time ddis.

I am guessing you have set eyes on igen i20 Sportz. Are you dumping idea of having another Fiat ? The Punto 90hp?

Thanks HighOctane. Your second suspicion is correct . The winner is the Fiat Punto Sport 90HP, I will be getting it in exotica red (ferrari red) .

I went on an objective TD spree of all other diesel hatches anyway, to see if anything else fits the bill. I'll list out how I arrived at my decision in my post tonight.