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Old 2nd October 2021, 13:37   #1
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Default Dada Motors takes back defective Tata Safari; no replacement given even after 2 months

First of all, a big thanks to rpmmachine for sharing the 2nd part of the Youtube video of this owner's alarming ordeal from Ludhiana, in the 7OO thread.

I watched both videos in detail and am shocked, not at the dealer and the stunts he pulled to stick this very obvious lemon (which was quite obviously delivered to someone else and returned back) to this guy, but at Tata Motors and it's management for taking a backward step in complete silence and let the guy go through so much anguish and deal with the dealership on his own.

Even after Tata Motors' top management is actively involved in this case now, their no-action and deaf ears is simply mind-boggling. No wonder the dealer has the final say in any/all such cases.

So, before getting all patriotic and emotional about the "Made in India", "Make in India", "Vocal for Local" calls resounding in our country today, take a deep breath, watch these videos, and make a better, sound decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nithesh_M View Post
An owner details the trouble in his ownership. Also alleges about Tata head honchos have suppressed a recall.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Identity View Post
Is there a social media post for this? I feel like I should do my bit to share this as much as possible to make more people aware of this incident. At least, that may put more pressure on TATA to solve this for good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CARDEEP View Post
Surprisingly no image or other data (snapshot/ email excerpts) or invoice/ paper documentation are shared in the blog. These could lend strength to his story & put Tata + dealer on backfoot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nithesh_M View Post
The owner lists his ordeal in a Facebook video which can be found here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_KP View Post
This is absurd. I can feel the pain and anguish of the owner. He should now call a press conference or do something like MG owner did to grab attention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mangaloreman View Post
Why Tata is letting this incident get out of control, and risk the reputation of their new Safari, beats me!
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4by4 View Post
Yes surprising indeed that he has not shared any details of invoice, communication etc.
The owner has uploaded 2 detailed videos on Youtube. In the first, posted about a month back, he has outlined his entire delivery fiasco and subsequent ordeal which is really painful to even listen to. In the second, posted yesterday, he has shared snapshots of emails sent to the dealership and Tata Motors management and also some service center slips and other details, while giving a latest update on the situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jude300 View Post
I am not an expert here but in these cases, I guess the best option would be to serve a legal notice to the dealer and the official who agreed for a replacement or take them to the consumer court.
A legal case comes with legal bindings and it's own separate obligations. He has explained why he didn't take the legal route in his 2nd video.



Here is a reply (to the video) from someone who has worked with Tata's test mules:-

Quote:
As far as my experience goes, Tata cars till Sub-compact SUV Nexon are decent, robust and don't give much headache. It is above Nexon that it becomes a nightmare. TBH, Harrier and Safari are just a haphazard assembly of different components with nothing indigenous in it. As someone who have worked on its test mules, the parts are taken from unreliable vendors and startups, mostly from US, China and Mexico. Tata really don't know how to make a compact SUV and Mid-Size SUV car. Their technicians are clueless about all the gizmos in Harrier twins, they are not fully confident in handling issues in them.

From my experience, if you really wish to go for a Tata, then go for cars like Nexon or below it (ironically its hatchbacks are truly at world-class level in built quality). They have sorted it out. Avoid harrier twins like a plague.

Mahindra is brilliant in compact and Mid-Size SUV segment.

PS: I am an expat living in Mumbai since 2011, I worked in Savronik India which is responsible for the installation as well as the maintenance of electricals in the Mumbai-Pune Expressway and Pir Panjal Tunnel. and now in Turkish company Bėko, in a JV with Voltas. In no way I am attached to Mahindra or any Tata rivals. Right now my drive is a Tiago AMT which is brilliant car and now I will be upgrading to Tata Punch AMT until I leave India for Turkey permanently by 2027.
As a non-biased, responsible forum, I too feel this ordeal needs to be highlighted. Not sure if it can be, since the owner is not a Team-BHPian.

I will talk to GTO and our team and see what our stand can be on this matter.
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Old 2nd October 2021, 15:22   #2
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Default Re: 2021 Tata Safari Review

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
Here is a reply (to the video) from someone who has worked with Tata's test mules:-
The Hexa was a very sorted machine. Why didn't TATA used the suppliers of Hexa. From seats to plastics everything was found good quality. IMO they need to adopt fast into the market changes and see the future while development stage. While Impact 2.0 philosophy introduced, they said TATA will have segment leading infotainment system and technology but they failed to achieve there own vision. Altroz, Nexon, Harrier and Safari have the smallest sized infotainment screen with the competition. The Management need a serious review with TML and must do the changes at the earliest.
It is very happy to see the comment from Mahindra by new Thar and XUV700, They tried to provide the best possible to consumers. Niggles are there but they will provide a solutions(we believe so) and in the other end we are struggling to find any commitment from TML on Harrier duo(can't see Legend Safari in this shape).GTO commented on Harrier 1.0 review that we should wait till updated version or 2022, TATA failed to correct his statement and it will get worse if they failed to upgrade. Last but not the least continues improvement required in the service, one or two intervention will not help.

Last edited by Vmv : 2nd October 2021 at 15:34. Reason: Typo
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Old 2nd October 2021, 17:27   #3
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Default Re: 2021 Tata Safari Review

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Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
First of all, a big thanks to rpmmachine for sharing the 2nd part of the Youtube video of this owner's alarming ordeal from Ludhiana, in the 7OO thread.
As a person awaiting a Tata car, this is scary. This is an out and out PR disaster for Tata. It almost brainwashed me to cancelling my Nexon booking. But later I realised that this has become a personal issue between the OP and Tata Motors. His experience has made him bitter (and rightly so) and it seems he is not the ones to take it lying down. This has become more of an ego tussle between OP and a headless organisation. But it is nothing a good dialogue cannot sort.

I fail to understand why a conglomerate which owns a luxury group of hotels can be so clueless when it comes to such a basic thing as customer service. My experience with Club Mahindra kept me distant from Mahindra, maybe I need a week at the Taj to make the comparison fair.

I just hope sense prevails at Tata Motors or else their newfound success could be short-lived.

Last edited by 400notout : 2nd October 2021 at 17:40. Reason: added thoughts
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Old 2nd October 2021, 18:57   #4
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Default Re: 2021 Tata Safari Review

@RavenAvi

How do 1 or 2 one sided videos make a genuine case? There's one TBHPian who replied earlier to my post (same that you quoted) that Dada Motors is a good dealer.

How do the replies to YouTube or public videos stand up in a trial in court? This is more fishy than appearing on the face of it. Has this gentleman put up any legal case against the dealer & company. What's holding him up? If he can buy a 2 million bucks car, why can he use legal options spending few thousands?

What's @GTO, TBHP & your role in this? How would you investigate the issues with one sided facts & comments on public forum (s)?

There are at least 50k Harriers & Safaris on street now. What percentage of cars have issues, the specific issues/ niggles & how does that stand up to auto industry data? Is it a case of bad engineering & affects all Harriers & Safaris as was the case of Skoda Gearboxes? Aren't issues bound to happen in any product whether tangible or intangible, for instance Infosys is unable to get act together on GST & Income Tax portals? Are these issues within permissible range?

Weren't there cases where MG shut down customers who bought up similar lemons? The company not only did silence up the comments, but also used PR machinery to cleanse up social media.

Are we an appellate authority to decide ok such matters? How are we sure that our forum is not being used mischievous benefits as TBHP is amongst the reputed name for it's honest & just views & reviews?

We need to support the customer as in general we can assume that bigger businesses may employ shady practices. This gentleman needs to go to consumer court to solve the case. He is not going there because it's a time consuming process & he's in a hurry to force compromise by going public. What would happen if dealer comes up own version & counters it, again on public forum?

We may intervene (as you have intended in last para) but I also hope that we don't end up with an egg on face?

Last edited by CARDEEP : 2nd October 2021 at 18:59. Reason: Errors
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Old 3rd October 2021, 00:46   #5
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Default Re: 2021 Tata Safari Review

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Originally Posted by CARDEEP View Post
@RavenAvi

We may intervene (as you have intended in last para) but I also hope that we don't end up with an egg on face?
The support for TATA motors and their agent/dealer as a matter of conjecture and in spite of the evidence to contrary is baffling. As a former and current customer of TATA motors - I can identify with every bit of the sentiment of the owner - its the least customer-friendly organization and the quality of their products is the worst I have experienced, only worse thing than the product is the quality of the service they provide.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 18:03   #6
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Default Re: 2021 Tata Safari Review

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Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
So, before getting all patriotic and emotional about the "Made in India", "Make in India", "Vocal for Local" calls resounding in our country today, take a deep breath, watch these videos, and make a better, sound decision.
.
That's indeed a very valid point, we are being fed Jingoism in the name of "Vocal for local", and hence they are enjoying a free pass against all their failures/lapses, had the customers been critical, they would be working hard to really improve in all aspects.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CARDEEP View Post
How do 1 or 2 one sided videos make a genuine case? There's one TBHPian who replied earlier to my post (same that you quoted) that Dada Motors is a good dealer.
I am good for my family members, I doubt if each of my employees also thinks the same.

There is a simple rule in service industry: If a customer is ailing, listen to them, talk to them and reach a solution to his/her problem asap, no ifs' and no buts'!

The video is genuine or not, I don't know - but had the video been fake, this guy would have been facing a case of criminal defamation. So my point is rather simple, if he was ailing and was promised something, it should have been delivered, which isn't.

Quote:
How do the replies to YouTube or public videos stand up in a trial in court?
I said that, a Youtube video can be used as a basis for filing a criminal defamation suit, if the other side is actually clean; if they aren't - then that simple case can devastate their reputation. Before you ask me, 'Criminal defamation' under section 499 reads like this:

Quote:
Whoever, by words either spoken or intended to be read, or by signs or by visible representations, makes or publishes any imputation concerning any person intending to harm, or knowing or having reason to believe that such imputation will harm, the reputation of such person, is said, except in the cases hereinafter expected, to defame that person.
Where 'person' is a legal entity, can be an individual or an organization too!

Quote:
This is more fishy than appearing on the face of it.
Can be on the side of both the parties.

Quote:
Has this gentleman put up any legal case against the dealer & company. What's holding him up? If he can buy a 2 million bucks car, why can he use legal options spending few thousands?
Because he knows what he is doing. Every decent advocate, who is your true friend - will tell you:

"The one who has never been to a court, is always most enthusiastic about being there"

Quote:
What's @GTO, TBHP & your role in this? How would you investigate the issues with one sided facts & comments on public forum (s)?
Neither RavenAvi, GTO nor any BHPian is anybody who can legally do anything for this man, all we can do is watch the video and share our respective opinion. Article 19 gives us the 'freedom of speech and expression', that's exactly what RavenAvi has practiced, it's his right (Which the forum also allows) to share what he feels, so is done by him - as much is the role of any other BHPian in this, me, you, everyone else.

Quote:
What percentage of cars have issues, the specific issues/ niggles & how does that stand up to auto industry data?
A single CNC machine can make a defect while churning out one in a million pieces, shall we blame the owner of the vehicle in which that piece went? If it's a defective vehicle, there is no scope of coming up with "present the data". What if it's the first lemon coming out, then? "Sir there has never been a defect, this isn't acceptable and the owner is lying?"


Quote:
Aren't issues bound to happen in any product whether tangible or intangible, for instance Infosys is unable to get act together on GST & Income Tax portals? Are these issues within permissible range?
Infosys is dealing with the party that can whip them to core, no matter they want or not, they will have to listen to them. This case isn't same, here the owner is forced to take this route to make the deaf listen - you think Infosys top executives will dare to ignore an email of someone seated even at the position of a joint secretary?

Quote:
Weren't there cases where MG shut down customers who bought up similar lemons? The company not only did silence up the comments, but also used PR machinery to cleanse up social media.
Tata motors is free to take that route, why can't they? It shows how poor their PR department too is, isn't it?

Quote:
How are we sure that our forum is not being used mischievous benefits as TBHP is amongst the reputed name for it's honest & just views & reviews?
Valid point, I agree.

Quote:
What would happen if dealer comes up own version & counters it, again on public forum?
Nobody is stopping the dealer or Tata motors from issuing a public statement, if they were truthful, they would have issued one, but their legal advisers have told them where a single false statement can land them. There have been cases where organizations, in their full rightfulness come out and issue public statements - why doesn't Tata and dealer take that route?

Why ask only consumer to go to the court? If the reputation of the manufacturer is being destroyed, they can approach the court too.

Quote:
We may intervene (as you have intended in last para) but I also hope that we don't end up with an egg on face?
We indeed will end up with that, T-BHP is just a forum where people discuss their views, we aren't a legal entity who has been appointed to represent the consumer or manufacturer at any platform, our role starts are reading about an issue and discussing our respective thoughts - and ends right there itself!

Last edited by VKumar : 3rd October 2021 at 18:17.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 18:18   #7
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Default Re: 2021 Tata Safari Review

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Originally Posted by vivek.singh.73 View Post
The support for TATA motors and their agent/dealer as a matter of conjecture and in spite of the evidence to contrary is baffling. As a former and current customer of TATA motors - I can identify with every bit of the sentiment of the owner - its the least customer-friendly organization and the quality of their products is the worst I have experienced, only worse thing than the product is the quality of the service they provide.
I'm not supporting Tata Motors or Dada Motors. I have read about Tata quality issues on the forum. However, my cousin who is now settled in Abu Dhabi had wonderful experience with Safari of 2008 make. No issues till they moved out of India. Their ownership included same day drives from Delhi to Indore. In fact I too had driven that SUV. To this date she fondly recalls the majestic elephant ride & fuss free ownership she had. Yes Tata service centres are not upto the mark, however are you sure others are. Hyundai, Maruti, Kia, MG, all have issues.

This gentleman is happy going public in digital age but would that matter. I have suggested best recourse for him. Harriers/ Safaris combined are selling more that Hector twins. XUV700 has only 10000 chips (as posted by another TBHPian). I bet many of his neighbours would end up buying Safaris despite his ordeal. Better for him to fight for his hard earned money than being a digital influencer. Coming to comments posted by expat on YouTube, Ford Motors too had same till they sold JLR & now wound up operations in India (I'm a Ford Figo Aspire Diesel owner).

I respect your experience & feedback, but "Kaali Daal" is different from "Daal mein Kaala". What is the error fraction of current generation & what are different types issues faced by owners is one of my questions?

Lastly, my question is how TBHP is a party to this case, except moral support to this gentleman as TBHP did in case of Skoda Gearbox issue one of forum member faced, yet he had to go to Consumer Court. What are we trying to prove as a Auto Forum of credibility.... Riding on weak case? Remember we weren't invited for current generation Honda City review (till date) for one or other reason.

Going to court will be best option in any case, if he wins he can celebrate all over internet & TBHP. God forbid if he doesn't, then what?

I rest my case now
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Old 3rd October 2021, 19:52   #8
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Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
Tata Motors and it's management for taking a backward step in complete silence and let the guy go through so much anguish and deal with the dealership on his own.
No wonder the dealer has the final say in any/all such cases.
This is the issue, in the pursuit of sales they have compromised with the dealers and this is not the first time I have heard this from TML.
The revamp of their cars hasn't filtered down to their dealerships in fact seems to be getting worse.
The guy has valid points, sad state of affairs.

Not fanboying it but MSIL(even Hyundai) seems to fare much better in dealer control, going by the reported cases but they're no saints either.
In our reality, when carrots don't work the stick is needed immediately to be effective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
So, before getting all patriotic and emotional about the "Made in India", "Make in India", "Vocal for Local" calls resounding in our country today, take a deep breath, watch these videos, and make a better, sound decision.
Absolutely, TML have benefitted the most. The guy puts valid points in his videos.
If they had pushed their dealers more to make them understand the concept of customer service we would have been happily discussing how awesome the Safari is.
I used to be amazed when a lot of people stayed away from TML. I used to tell them that they've changed but they were right not me.
TML have lost a customer for good.

The most baffling part is that all they're doing is to keep adding more customers while keeping such pathetic attitude towards existing ones !
The plight of the ICB (The Indian Car Buyer | Struggling with problems in brand new cars) continues, sadly.

Last edited by shancz : 3rd October 2021 at 20:22. Reason: add ccl
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Old 3rd October 2021, 21:10   #9
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Default Re: 2021 Tata Safari Review

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Originally Posted by CARDEEP View Post
Lastly, my question is how TBHP is a party to this case, except moral support to this gentleman
What are we trying to prove as a Auto Forum of credibility.... Riding on weak case?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CARDEEP View Post
What's @GTO, TBHP & your role in this? How would you investigate the issues with one sided facts & comments on public forum (s)?
Are we an appellate authority to decide ok such matters? How are we sure that our forum is not being used mischievous benefits as TBHP is amongst the reputed name for it's honest & just views & reviews?
We are not the police or investigators here. Looks like the last 2 lines of my original post caused some confusion or miscommunication with you, my friend. Don't get so agitated or defensive.

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Originally Posted by CARDEEP View Post
We may intervene (as you have intended in last para) but I also hope that we don't end up with an egg on face?
How or why should we intervene? Pray tell. We don't have any vested interests either with the customer or the dealer, and neither have either party reached out to us to paintbrush them in the automotive world.

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Originally Posted by VKumar View Post
Neither RavenAvi, GTO nor any BHPian is anybody who can legally do anything for this man, all we can do is watch the video and share our respective opinion. Article 19 gives us the 'freedom of speech and expression', that's exactly what RavenAvi has practiced, it's his right (Which the forum also allows) to share what he feels, so is done by him - as much is the role of any other BHPian in this, me, you, everyone else.

Nobody is stopping the dealer or Tata motors from issuing a public statement, if they were truthful, they would have issued one, but their legal advisers have told them where a single false statement can land them. There have been cases where organizations, in their full rightfulness come out and issue public statements - why doesn't Tata and dealer take that route?
That's it. Thanks, VKumar.

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Originally Posted by CARDEEP View Post
We need to support the customer as in general we can assume that bigger businesses may employ shady practices.
You yourself said it in your own post. That is what I intended when I said:-

Quote:
Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
As a non-biased, responsible forum, I too feel this ordeal needs to be highlighted. Not sure if it can be, since the owner is not a Team-BHPian.

I will talk to GTO and our team and see what our stand can be on this matter.
It was just a matter of watching both the videos for an hour+ on Youtube, feeling that this guy is going through a severely tough ordeal in the past 6 months, empathising with him, and seeing if we can do the least we usually do for such cases - highlight this on our Homepage, News & Hot Threads sections.

I have merely asked GTO and the Admin team to consider the above, since I doubted that it might not be valid since the affected owner is not a Team-BHPian, but do this because a lot of our own forum members are/will considering the Safari as their next purchase(s) and they need to be aware of such dealers and shoddy, spineless corporate management behind them.

Rest assured, we are not running to Ludhiana now to fight with the dealership or Tata Motors alongside this affected owner.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 21:44   #10
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Default Re: 2021 Tata Safari Review

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but do this because a lot of our own forum members are/will considering the Safari as their next purchase(s) and they need to be aware of such dealers and shoddy, spineless corporate management behind them.
Kindly do this. We booked two Safari's and canceled when I saw the first video. I was shocked, upon further investigation I found so many videos on youtube against tata motors.

Even one person bought Tata Tiago with 2 airbags and later found the car don't even have a single Airbag in it. What next? Nothing, no action nothing by TATA against the dealer.

I can assure you that Mahindra is far better than this.
I can see Mahindra replacing Toyota in the near future if they continue on this path and TATA will taste the dust. (subjective, my views can be different than other members)
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Old 3rd October 2021, 22:42   #11
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Default Re: 2021 Tata Safari Review

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Originally Posted by rpmmachine View Post

Even one person bought Tata Tiago with 2 airbags and later found the car don't even have a single Airbag in it. What next? Nothing, no action nothing by TATA against the dealer.
It's funny, same thing happened with one of my known person but it was Hyundai in his case.

He bought last gen i20 diesel (few years ago) and after an year (after a big argument) came to know that the engine in i20 is 1.4 L CRDI and not 1.6 L which was mentioned and sold to him.

He was furious and was saying he was cheated. In his case also Hyundai didn't do any thing.

Now I don't know whom to blame, Hyundai, Sales person or the buyer.

Point is "jaago grahak jaago".

-PK

Last edited by pk_del : 3rd October 2021 at 22:44.
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Old 3rd October 2021, 23:01   #12
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Default Re: 2021 Tata Safari Review

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Originally Posted by pk_del View Post
..
..
He bought last gen i20 diesel (few years ago) and after an year (after a big argument) came to know that the engine in i20 is 1.4 L CRDI and not 1.6 L which was mentioned and sold to him.

He was furious and was saying he was cheated. In his case also Hyundai didn't do any thing.

Now I don't know whom to blame, Hyundai, Sales person or the buyer.

Point is "jaago grahak jaago".

-PK
Not the same thing. Hyundai has never advertised, documented or offered the i20 with the 1.6 U2 CRDi in India. It's always been the 1.4 U2 CRDi, and advertisements, brochure, official websites, reviews - heck, even the price lists I've seen across multiple dealers - all of them specify the same.

What you've called out of seems to be a case of the sales guy pulling a fast one over an ignorant customer. Definitely jaago grahak jaago!
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Old 3rd October 2021, 23:19   #13
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Default Re: 2021 Tata Safari Review

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Originally Posted by RavenAvi View Post
I watched both videos in detail and am shocked, not at the dealer and the stunts he pulled to stick this very obvious lemon (which was quite obviously delivered to someone else and returned back) to this guy, but at Tata Motors and it's management for taking a backward step in complete silence and let the guy go through so much anguish and deal with the dealership on his own.
It seems he has received a legal notice now from Tata (Check the pinned comment posted ~3hrs back).

Could someone familiar with the matter please summarise the issue here?
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Old 3rd October 2021, 23:26   #14
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Not the same thing.
Why not sir. Which model of Tiago it was?

May be sales person pulled up a fast one. Mentioning, this particular variant has airbags and sold another variant to the gullible customer.

If I remember correctly, the airbags were not standard on earlier versions of Tiago.

Lot of people are saying bad things about Tata service as its end of the road.

I have Hexa and also recently got Tigor. To be fair to the dealership and service center they are top class and listen to the complaint and take all the efforts to resolve them.

And during my purchase of Tigor, dealership was upfront and kept me updated and and shared me the VIN when the car was billed from the factory.

My purchase was delayed but they kept my car and I got the same car with the same VIN with around 20KM on the odometer.

Point is all dealers and people are not the same and one shouldn't take the liberty and say bad things about all of them.

Some of the statements mentioned in earlier posts point to the same.

I feel bad for the person who is facing issues. It can happen to anybody. But he could have avoided it by not accepting the car which didn't have the same VIN.

Also, we are hearing only his side of the story and have formed our opinions that TML is bad and somehow I feel people are influencing other people to cancel their bookings.

Also, I doubt the timing, every thing was quiet and suddenly we see on one side people started questioning XUV 7OO variants and on another side we see this story on Safari thread.

And both the threads are most active.

Can't be coincidence.

-PK
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Old 4th October 2021, 00:00   #15
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1. Lot of people are saying bad things about Tata service as its end of the road.
2. To be fair to the dealership and service center they are top class and listen to the complaint and take all the efforts to resolve them.
3. Point is all dealers and people are not the same and one shouldn't take the liberty and say bad things about all of them.
4. But he could have avoided it by not accepting the car which didn't have the same VIN.
5. We are hearing only his side of the story and have formed our opinions that TML is bad and somehow I feel people are influencing other people to cancel their bookings.
6. Also, I doubt the timing, every thing was quiet and suddenly we see on one side people started questioning XUV 7OO variants and on another side we see this story on Safari thread.
1. If I have bought the 20 lakh car from TML and their service center isn't able to resolve the issues then where does the road lead to?

2. True, and no one here is of the opinion that all dealerships are bad.

3. That's exactly the point
Not all dealers are ethical and when they err its the company (TML in this case) which has to set them straight so the customer doesn't suffer. Because we buy a Tata Safari not a XYZDealer Safari. If TML claims customers then its their responsibility to take care of them.

4. Regardless of the VIN, at the end a Tata Safari was sold, which had multiple problems, the dealer wasn't able to resolve, wasted time and money of the customer and TML and still no resolution. Put yourself in the customer's shoes and think about it.

5. Also true, we've been waiting for TML's side as well but no news till now. This issue along with others is making customers jittery about putting in 20+ lakhs on the car. If TML had sorted the issues as it was supposed to, we wouldn't be wasting our time here.

6. I don't think so, but you are entitled to your opinion like everyone else here, who knows might even be true

Last edited by shancz : 4th October 2021 at 00:01. Reason: compacted
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