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Old 19th January 2021, 12:14   #16
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Default Re: IRDAI: Traffic violators should pay higher insurance premium

Agreed with many of the posters above. In the absence of (1) clear and sensible rules (speed limits clearly displayed, sensible speed limits etc.) and (2) proper enforcement-- this looks to be another nail in the coffin for the honest citizen who doesn't believe in 'off the books' transactions to get out of such situations.

Some industries employ what's known as a 'Just Culture' when investigating infractions or safety related incidents.
This always calls for a step where the investigator needs to verify the rules were clearly defined, understood by everyone and that a substitution test is passed, meaning that if I put myself in this person's shoes, would I make the same mistake or not. Something that the powers that be may want to strongly consider.
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Old 19th January 2021, 14:26   #17
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Default Re: IRDAI: Traffic violators should pay higher insurance premium

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I wholeheartedly agree. Those who violate the law & get tickets should pay higher premiums. That's how it is in most developed countries. In USA, drivers are scared not just of the high fines, but even the impact it'll have on their insurance premiums.

Equally, those of us who don't get challans should receive a discount then .
Before I address the bolded part of your post, let me relate an anecdote:

I once received a ticket here in Bangalore by mail for not wearing the seat-belt. There was no photographic or any other kind of evidence attached. When I asked for evidence I was told that a constable was standing at the junction and was noting down on paper all the registration numbers of vehicles violating any rule; and they sent me a copy of said paper.

When I mentioned that (a) I never sit in a car without wearing the seat-belt and that (b) I would like to meet the constable and the inspector to speak with them, I was curtly told by the inspector that the cop has no reason to lie or make any false-accusations; and that if the cop has said it was so, it certainly was so, and that I had no option but to pay the fine.

Cops' word against mine.

Now to address the bolded portion.

In the USA, people have the option of going to court and fighting a ticket; and there are high chances of actually winning. The cop has to be present on the day of the case, period. If the cop does not show up, irrespective of reason, the case is thrown out of court and the driver is found innocent.

Also, the cop has to show the driver and the judge in court (then and there, not ask to show it at a later date) irrefutable proof of the offence including calibration dates and details of the calibration results and the details of the training of the cop handling the speed-gun/radar and details of any refresher trtaining attended etc. The smallest discrepancy in any of those, the case is dismissed in favour of the driver.

The court will actually hear the case on the date scheduled and not entertain any pleas for stay or anything.

Courts there tend to be biased more to the public than to the authorities because the authorities are supposed to be extremely familiar with the law and everything that entails including evidence.

The driver does not even need a lawyer for this.

And, tickets are differentiated between driving and non-driving offences.

Finally, any crashes have proper fault-determination. If the crash or even traffic offence is not because of a fault on your part, it will never count against you. Example of a traffic offence not being your fault - your having to drive the wrong way up a one-way to give way to an emergency-services vehicle.

Plus, there is no separation between "traffic police" and "law & order police" - they are all the same; and one does not necessarily need to go to the closest station or one within that exact jurisdiction of the ticket or crash. One may go to any convenient station within a prescribed timeframe.

Please fight for all these here in India and then you may choose to agree with how we should ape the USA in this case.

Cheers
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Old 19th January 2021, 14:42   #18
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Default Re: IRDAI: Traffic violators should pay higher insurance premium

If this comes into effect this will be just another of this governments amazing schemes to screw over the honest tax paying citizen.

In the short time frame (4 years or so) that I have been riding I have been caught once for over speeding. The constable immediately suggested paying the fine and asking how much money I have on me. You can instantly get what they want from this question itself...after all should the traffic police determine the crime you have committed based on your bank balance?

I had to insist on paying the fine for about 10 mins or so before he finally relented and agreed to use my debit card. I didn't even want to pay the fine by cash because I know how some of these guys will carry invalid/old fine books.

I still remember the hesitancy and slight shock on the guys face when he realized I am sticking to my stand and ready to pay five times the amount he was asking for as bribe.

Unless, these kind of loopholes are addressed there is no point in bringing in these kind of rules.

At some point even honest citizens will start thinking about how their insistence to always have insurance, PUC etc and actually pay all the fines is stupid. Especially, when people around them barely maintain 3rd party insurance and get out of paying traffic fines after breaking rules all the time with Rs. 200.

Add to this the increased insurance premiums which will become just another tool for the traffic police to harass people with (since there is no effective redressal mechanism to contest traffic fines) and the Indian Government will be looking at a lot more people who will be hesitant to insure their vehicles.
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Old 19th January 2021, 14:59   #19
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Default Re: IRDAI: Traffic violators should pay higher insurance premium

My two cents. We want to have a trouble free road to drive. So zero or less number of accidents would be our highest priority. That's why, we have traffic rules and regulations.
However, if we look deep, traffic fines have nothing to do with secure driving. A traffic cop can fine you for nothing. They can show false photos through the camera system too. There is no appeal for a traffic fine. Almost all the time the driver will be at the mercy of the cop. If we look at that way, linking traffic fines to insurance premium will be worse than the dilapidated roads and systems that create accidents.
So, in my opinion, till the time, better, toll free and signal free roads , good parking spaces are not made available in cities, the idea of linking insurance premium and traffic fines will be just creating more bureaucratic indulgence.
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Old 20th January 2021, 03:21   #20
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Default Re: IRDAI: Traffic violators should pay higher insurance premium

Quote:
Originally Posted by GTO View Post
I wholeheartedly agree. Those who violate the law & get tickets should pay higher premiums. That's how it is in most developed countries. In USA, drivers are scared not just of the high fines, but even the impact it'll have on their insurance premiums.

Equally, those of us who don't get challans should receive a discount then .
Here is my problem with this. That it is unfair and disproportionate targeting as always. People on this forum are the ones who are targeted for challans, typically for speeding, perhaps sometimes for stopping in a no parking or similar.

My problem is that the problems plaguing road safety are well beyond these two issues and the worst offenders have NO consequences.

Even today if you go at 4.30 am on Marine drive, trust me you will find people in four wheelers hanging around drunk (and driving).

Scooters are the plague, I’m sure many don’t even renew insurance, they drive with the worst traffic discipline (forget lack of helmets - I don’t care if the rash ones get injured) and probably get away with the least “visible” records of challans - maybe the odd 50/- bribe here and there but no camera is catching them. They are also the ones drag racing early AM at Worli Sea Face and what not. Many are going around with either no number plates or indecipherable number plates which probably escape challans anyway.

Dangerous lane change, utter disregard for traffic signals etc have NO coverage in these rules. Just like taxes, the 5% people who are compliant 90% of the time will suffer the disproportionate consequence of a rule which doesn’t improve habits for 90% of the offenders.

Now take the highway - why aren’t cars hogging the right lane for the entire journey at 60 kmph (or any speed for that matter) fined for mere cruising in the right lane without overtaking. The Mumbai Pune expressway is like a flag bearer of our driving illiteracy - with everyone from hired cabs to ordinary and premium private cars having no clue that the right lane is ONLY for overtaking and not meant to be cruising in.

Sorry for the rant like post but this is my two cents as a middle class 100% tax paying citizen who’s fed up of being the target section for most such ridiculous rules.
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Old 20th January 2021, 06:13   #21
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Default Re: IRDAI: Traffic violators should pay higher insurance premium

I want to believe it's a good idea, but I'll brace for impact!

Just wish my net income could also follow a similar trajectory as fuel, insurance & service costs
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Old 20th January 2021, 08:32   #22
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Default Re: IRDAI: Traffic violators should pay higher insurance premium

Related to my prev post, may be the authorities should just impound any vehicle that doesnt have insurance. Many of these vehicles are old or badly maintained, and possibly used for what not. Just getting these vehicles out can bring down the violation instances, rash driving to at least some extent.

Being educated is not about being literate. Who ever thought of the idea to link premiums to violations must understand this first - Indian drivers are not that educated in this area, and the governance mechanisms have much to be done still
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Old 21st January 2021, 11:33   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai View Post
Guess who many will be willing to pay fine instead of bribe. This pushes more people to opt to bribe than pay fine honestly.
Well, talk about timing. Just a day after I posted it, I got fined. That too after 7 years after my last traffic fine.

I was driving back home after a business meet in the i10, and I needed to take a left turn from Sankey road at Bashyam Circle. Then I saw two left turns, barely 10-15 feet apart. Since I was coming there after a long time, I mistook the first turn as the free left turn and took it. Within seconds I realised it didn't join the main road. So I took a short right turn and joined the main road. I didn't notice any traffic sign, so I thought it was fine. But that short turn happened to be one-way. And within a short distance there were a bunch of cops waiting for me. So I got stopped.

IRDAI: Traffic violators should pay higher insurance premium-traffic_fine.bmp.jpg

In the image, green was the right way, red was the route I took. The black circle was the police stop. They asked for the DL, and I opened up Digilocker and tapped on my DL. It simply refused to open, no matter how many times I poked at it. My physical DL is not with me since I had given it to the RTO last month for address change. For a moment I was horrified that I will also be fined for not having a DL. So I told the cop my digilocker is stuck, and he said it is ok. He didn't even ask for RC or PUC. Then I remembered I had the DL on mParivahan app too. That opened right away and I could furnish that.

Anyway, I politely explained what happened and the cops realised I had made a honest mistake and not a willful one. So they reduced the fine from 1000 to 500.

While this was happening, they had also stopped one woman on her scooter for talking on mobile while riding. She was battling with the cops, yelling she was talking to her daughter, so it should be alright. She didn't have DL on her too. Since she took a very argumentative route, the cops were throwing the book at her demanding other documents (she probably had none), telling her they are impounding the scooter. At one point, the cop who was typing my fine into the wireless device pointed to me and told her how I was politely paying the fine without trying to fight with them. She looked at me and then replied "he has means". She didn't look too poor either, but she was clearly violating no mobile rule while riding and not at all contrite about it. She was just mad she got caught, and didn't want to pay a fine.

This underlined the point for me that depending on the interaction with cops, the fine amount can vary a lot. That also means the insurance premium will vary a lot. I don't think that much power should lie with the cops.

Quote:
Originally Posted by condor View Post
Related to my prev post, may be the authorities should just impound any vehicle that doesnt have insurance.
This is an excellent point. Just doing this will double the income of insurance companies, and also doesn't punish people who honestly pay the fine, instead of bribe.
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Old 21st January 2021, 12:28   #24
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Default Re: IRDAI: Traffic violators should pay higher insurance premium

In India, traffic offences are registered against the car, not the driver. This lacuna needs to be fixed first.
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Old 21st January 2021, 12:52   #25
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Default Re: IRDAI: Traffic violators should pay higher insurance premium

The IRDAI seems to have lost their minds and this insurance industry in india is getting ripe for a disruption.

Couple of my reasons:
1) The third party premiums are going sky high and if you happen to have a yellow board then god save you. A 6 year old Tata ace has a third party premium of 18000. A second hand ace comes for 30k. Where do they get their logic from?

2) Corruption on our roads are pretty rampant. Cops get bribed, rtos get briber and heck ambulance drivers are bribed too. So how are they going to arrive at the stats?

3) The companies hardly offer a group premium if you have multiple vehicles, do not offer discounts based on safe driving and have a million reasons to deny or reduce the claim amount! A 25k preimum and at the time of a claim you wont be given your full costs back.

4) We are already forced to buy three year policies in the country. With these laws we will see more uninsured drivers on the road! God save us.

5) Increasing insurance prices will make people stop having multiple vehicles and collectors are especially going to get hit bad. The rules in the game needs a disruption. A person driving in a city vs a person in a rural area follow different habits and traffic volume. Cannot use the same brush across the board. I do not see where our population volume is helping the customer get a good rate. What is the volume of customers of a company having a claim?

Maddy
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Old 21st January 2021, 12:58   #26
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Default Re: IRDAI: Traffic violators should pay higher insurance premium

My take auto insurance is just like medical insurance: just take it and pray to God you don't get use it. We all know that we're being taken for a ride but there's nothing we can do about...just like so many other things around us. We "Just Do It" as the Nike tagline goes! Just like IT evaders get raided what do the true tax payers get in return: 'a badge' that you share on your FB profile no discounts or rebates on your next filing.
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Old 21st January 2021, 14:02   #27
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Default Re: IRDAI: Traffic violators should pay higher insurance premium

Quote:
Originally Posted by wheelguy View Post
IRDAI has invited inputs of all stakeholders on the recommendations till February 1, 2021.
Source
That will be "Double Jeopardy" which is not allowed as per law!
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Old 21st January 2021, 19:06   #28
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Default Re: IRDAI: Traffic violators should pay higher insurance premium

I just wrote a detailed email to IRDAI on the emails provided on why this is not a good idea. Few points that I mentioned:

1. The Working group that has made this proposal has executives from the Auto Insurance companies - no representation from Road Development & maintenance, Traffic Police and General public. This is a proposal with self-interest groups in the panel

2. Offences such as Drunken driving are good to be included, but crossing the signal line has hefty penalty points. Our Traffic Signal infrastructure is pretty bad, inconsistent and manipulated by the cop at that junction. Any photo evidence does not have info on what happened before the offence - for example, when crossing a big intersection from left to right, the traffic light changes to red and you are ticketed. There is no amber light in many cases and even if there is, its not admissible in India

3. The report has comparison to the practices in the US and South Korea, where there is great infrastructure and mechanisms to challenge in a court of law. There is none of that in India, but only this aspect is being considered.

4. Parking on the side of the road in our cities is common - only because commercial properties (other than large malls/shops) don't have a mandate/not enforced on parking spot availability. Where are people expected to park when you say "No Parking" but there are no parking spots/meters nearby?

Many more points, but the above are the major ones. Request forum members to write emails to the IRDAI group, so that we can get this message across
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Old 21st January 2021, 19:14   #29
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Default Re: IRDAI: Traffic violators should pay higher insurance premium

What happens if the car is being driven by a driver instead of the owner who may not always be in the car?
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Old 21st January 2021, 19:23   #30
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Default Re: IRDAI: Traffic violators should pay higher insurance premium

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Originally Posted by Cessna182 View Post
What happens if the car is being driven by a driver instead of the owner who may not always be in the car?
Owner is responsible for any thing that happens to either the car or anyone else on the road or any illegal act by the driver. This is very clear in the law.
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