[drivf]

Hi
Had the same experience a few years ago. I can tell you that A, B and the insurance guy are con men.

What possibly happened is that A went to the showroom to assess repairs required to make the car new again(less likely) and was quoted a huge price. Enter person B who said I don’t have enough funds to buy this car but I know a way out- enter ‘friendly insurance guy’ who will file a complaint using his contacts in traffic police. The FIR may even have info of some totally unknown people driving the car. Then a claim for total loss will be made. All this while, the car might be in running condition.

Once the claim is processed Mr. A will beg you for the money citing a lot of problems. And once he gets the money he will give the car off to person B who will also have to give the insurance agent some money. Back then the mistake I made was I didn’t write to the insurance company about this. It was pandemic time when the claim was intimated and processed. I just spoke to some lawyers who said just go ahead and close the matter- it’s quite common.

The only difference to the above scenario is that A bought the car primarily to flip it and make some extra dough. Cuz he has nothing else to do. Hustle!!

Great idea that you wrote to the insurance company.

PS: initially when I was pestering for the transfer A tried to pull a con telling me that his agent had gone to the RTO but my file is missing and that I would have to go to the RTO office and meet a specific person . I asked my friend (who is a fleet owner) to help me. He used his sources and the file was found. But due to the pandemic everything went on hold and then this whole scenario worked out.
The car currently belongs to B- dunno if running or scrapped !

[ganeshk4]

Isn't it part of the process, where seller needs to inform respective RTO regarding the sale of the vehicle? Was it followed?

[nettooran]

Originally Posted by clix22

Update :
I spoke to person A to get more information. He has renewed the insurance in my name from policy bazaar and paid the premium himself.
They have raised a claim post accident, surveyor is person B's friend and is handling it. On asking him who signed the claim form , he said form has not been filled and will need id proof also.
Have told him that I have sold the car to him and its his responsibility now. Not interested in getting involved in this.
I will call / email bajaj allianz to tell them that car has been sold by me and I have no stake or claim on it.

Your problem wont end there. What if they use the car for illegal activities after this?

Tell them that in order to proceed further, he needs to start the ownership trandfer proceedings first. All this can be done at your end. Bear the expese that comes. would run to a thousand rupees maybe. The only thing that you would need is an ID proof of A or B whomever the tranfer is to happen.

Get all the documents ready and then ask them to proceed with the claim ( if you are sure there is no thrid party damage involved) . As soon as that is settled, go yourself to the RT office and submot the documents for ownership transfer. After 2 weeks keep checking online to ensure that transfer has happened.

I burned my finger very hard once ( story for a later date) and after that I have sold 2 vehicles. Both the times, I bore all the expense and took the trouble to get ownership transferred in the buyers name. The only item I need from the new owner is his address proof and ID.

[Artyom]

Based upon my experience after selling 2 vehicles in the past one thing was very clear.
IF the ownership is not transferred from your name to the 2nd owners name then you will be held responsible.
This is a ruling from Supreme court.
No legal document will be honored stating you sold the vehicle to X and Y. So whatever action you take please be cautious and with a mindset that the vehicle is still yours (On Papers). Any misrepresentation or wrongdoings will put you in trouble.

2 links though little old might help you :-

https://www.mondaq.com/india/insuran...ership-act-now

https://www.zeebiz.com/india/news-bi...nsation-161375


Please do check if anything has changed since by visiting the RTO as they can guide you in this matter.

[IndigoXLGrandDi]

Reading this thread, I too woke up (Seriously).

I had sold Mahindra Alfa Goods Carrier (3Wheeler) in Dec 2020 to 'A' for Rs. 31000/- and received the payment in Cash. I did not take any acknowledgement from him that I sold vehicle to him. In 2021, I had visited RTO and signed the Transfer forms before the Inspector.



But even today, MParivahan App shows the vehicle in my name. I don't have any proof of Sale or ID-Address Proofs of Buyer.

What are the options for me at this stage?

I had bought the vehicle Brand New in July 2013.

Sorry, I should have got it done on priority as a Team-Bhpian.

[condor]

What happens if:

A car owner sells a car, and cancels the insurance in say 1 month of sale (buyer is told upfront about this - and this time is given to allow the buyer to get the car transferred)

IF the buyer does not get the transfer done in that time, can he get new insurance in previous owners name, without getting previous owner involved ?

If the buyer does not get RC Transferred and does not get insurance as in previous point - what happens if there is a mis-hap ? Does the owner/seller become liable ?

*

Everything seems to point liability towards the owner/seller. Pls chip in your thoughts.

[Ton Ami]

Originally Posted by clix22

This is what I have not been able to figure out. How insurance company agreed to issue policy in my name when payment is being done by someone else.

It is not a big deal. If one has access to vehicle RC details, Insurance renewal can be done online by almost anyone.

You are lucky that no human was hurt in the accident. I would suggest not to claim Insurance money for Person B. As in that case you will be taking responsibility of your car till date of accident. However, you must ensure that your ex car gets deregistered asap.

[Aviator_guy]

Originally Posted by condor

What happens if:

A car owner sells a car, and cancels the insurance in say 1 month of sale (buyer is told upfront about this - and this time is given to allow the buyer to get the car transferred)

IF the buyer does not get the transfer done in that time, can he get new insurance in previous owners name, without getting previous owner involved ?

If the buyer does not get RC Transferred and does not get insurance as in previous point - what happens if there is a mis-hap ? Does the owner/seller become liable ?

*

Everything seems to point liability towards the owner/seller. Pls chip in your thoughts.

As you have rightly figured out, point #2 is applicable. Unless RC transfer is complete, the seller is official owner of the vehicle and is responsible (including having a valid third party insurance). That's why the onus lies on the owner to ensure RC transfer is completed in a timely manner. SC also has provided guidance on the same lines.

Although, there might be some leeway to get out of trouble if owner can prove handover /sale to buyer (It might take time and effort to prove this to authorities / court).

[PrasadS]

Originally Posted by Artyom

This is a ruling from Supreme court.
No legal document will be honored stating you sold the vehicle to X and Y. So whatever action you take please be cautious and with a mindset that the vehicle is still yours (On Papers). Any misrepresentation or wrongdoings will put you in trouble.

I have a question on this:
Since it's a supreme court ruling that nothing apart from RC transfer holds and the vehicle is still mine on paper, what happens if i file a police complaint stating that my car is stolen?
Would i be given the car back as it legally belongs to me?
Would this threat/action be enough to make the unrelenting buyer complete the RC transfer?
Meanwhile am I safe from legal hassles incase of a claim, as by law the car was reported stolen?

[Aviator_guy]

Originally Posted by PrasadS

I have a question on this:
Since it's a supreme court ruling that nothing apart from RC transfer holds and the vehicle is still mine on paper, what happens if i file a police complaint stating that my car is stolen?
Would i be given the car back as it legally belongs to me?
Would this threat/action be enough to make the unrelenting buyer complete the RC transfer?
Meanwhile am I safe from legal hassles incase of a claim, as by law the car was reported stolen?

Even though there is no written record of sale but I assume that original RC card would have been handed over to the buyer. In that case, how will the buyer prove ownership for filing police complaint and make a claim? May be owner would have to also file missing report for RC card along with the vehicle theft. Going by some blogs in in the TBHP forum, filing missing vehicle report (FIR) is not so straightforward so not sure how this thing would work out.

Not sure of legal angle (and court procedure) if owner is somehow able to get FIR registered.

[Akash_1806]

To everyone thinking how the insurance was still active, I believe I can help the members with that being a summer time insurance sales intern. The proof of insurance only includes the mobile number and email address as provided by the insurer. To change any of these, an OTP is sent. For example- If A bought the car from OP and got all the paperwork signed but he applied for insurance email and phone updating through OTP then it is as easy as slicing butter with a warm knife (I am talking about government companies, in private it is little bit tough as bribes don't always work but it can be done here as well). This can be done by any experienced insurance agent but involves a risk. Though the car is still in OP's name, using the same process it was sold to B. Now when the car is totalled the insurance company is going to take hold of the owner and transfer the cash to him/her after all the tasks have been fulfilled.

The owner does not want to be involved as the car has already been sold as per him. I would suggest that you take in writing, on a plain sheet of paper the undertaking of B (new owner) about the details of the accident and proof that no was injured. Plus, to be on the safer sided get a sale letter along with form 29 and 30 (though it is mentioned by Supreme Court that the owner will be held responsible, these documents generally do the work in lower authorities), signed as per the original date of sale from A and file a case under Section 420 (Fraud) on A. This will keep the original owner out of all the hassle and any wrong doings caused by the other owners of the car but be prepared for challans and bribes of around 50k in this case, otherwise the car can not be transferred. You can negotiate with B in this case depending on your luck.

Originally Posted by Aviator_guy

Even though there is no written record of sale but I assume that original RC card would have been handed over to the buyer. In that case, how will the buyer prove ownership for filing police complaint and make a claim? May be owner would have to file missing report for RC card along with the vehicle. Going by some blogs in in the TBHP forum, filing missing vehicle report is not so straightforward so not sure how this thing would work out.

Not sure of legal angle (and court procedure) if owner is somehow able to get FIR registered.

And for this, it is not suggested as the first buyer has got all the documents signed from the original owner. Tough the original RC card has been handed over, online database and government records hold OP as owner. We should remember that any legal notary document and government form holds value in the eyes of law. The owner will be in trouble. In some cases the court has also asked for bank statements of both the parties involved to check about the case of stolen vehicle and this will put the owner in trouble.

The best option in this case would be that the owner should take care of the insurance on it's own, settle the dispute with B outside the court and forcing him to get the ownership transferred in his name before giving out cash. You can involve A, but that is going to be of no use, neither to the owner nor B.

[raj4466]

Originally Posted by clix22

Since I will not be providing any of this hopefully that will be the end of that story.

Your story doesn't end there my friend.
The ownership transfer was your responsibility, the vehicle is still in your name. You are lucky that they at least renwed the insurance, else you would have been in bigger trouble. The sale letter you hold is as good as a white paper; there are Supreme Court judgements mentioning that the RC Owner is responsible for all the crimes & cases.

Now, how this will come back and bite you.
After 15 years, the vehicle is supposed to be re registered and fitness renewed. So if you do not cancel the RC with proper formalities, the RTO will consider the RC active and will add a penalty on the pending taxes. You will get the notice and will be asked to make the payment.

So get this sorted in the proper way. Go inspect the vehicle and check if it is a total loss. Work with the insurance company and get the settlement, cancel the RC. Now take a cut you for the pain you had to go through and transfer the rest to A or B.

[pedrolourenco]

Firstly remember all the advice given in this thread is just advice. You need to segregate the good advice from the bad. I can see there are some people have given wrong advise without bothering to check.
Here is what I have to say (Please verify from reliable sources before doing anything based on what I say).
- You sold the car to A and he sold the car to B. Form 29 & 30 were not submitted to RTO. That means (for the Cops, RTO and Insurance Company) the car was never sold. You are still the owner. The transfer of money for the "sale" is the business of the IT Department. IT Department is not bothered about accidents.
- B was driving the car at the time of the accident. You were the owner. There is nothing in the insurance policy that prevents another person from driving the car as long as he/she has a licence. His/Her name need not be in the insurance policy.
- If it was a hit and run case, you would have been responsible. But if the driver has declared he was driving during the accident, all the responsibility is his. Please check with the cops on their interpretation.
- Anyone can renew an insurance policy. Owner does not need to do it. B could not have insured in his name as he was not the owner.
- RC and Insurance are the documents that Cops and Insurance company look at. Make sure the car had a valid PUC. Otherwise the insurance policy will be void and that could land you in trouble. Sale letter, Registered letter to RTO etc are all worthless documents. What is important is either the car is transferred or you have submitted the transfer papers to RTO and the transfer is in progress.
- If the guy wanted to do a fraud he would have transferred the car so the money comes to his account. He wouldn't take the risk of having the money in your account. What if you refuse to give it? Legally he can't do anything. Any common fraudster wouldn't take such a risk.

Talk to an insurance agent keeping these points in mind and take a call on what to do. Do that before sending any e-mails of registered letters to the insurance company.

[BeemerBug_06]

Troubles related to paperwork and ownership transfer is something that each and everyone has faced at some or the other point while selling a vehicle. I know of an incident wherein a friend's friend sold his car to someone who further sold it to another person who had a bad accident with it, leading to the death of a biker. The cops were of course at my friend's buddy's doorstep because the car was still on his name.

That's why while selling any vehicle always ensure that the following steps are taken :-
- A certified Government document of the buyer such as Aadhar card, Pan card, driving license etc.
- Copy of the official RTO documents (Form 29 & 30) with their signature in all the required places
- Insurance copy
- An RTO certified delivery note bearing the signature of the buyer
- An unofficial note of your own stating that you sold the car to xyz person on so and so date etc.

It's also a good idea to maintain a file/record of each car you have owned with the required papers in it, even if the car is sold.

If selling via a dealer, make it a practice to keep the dealer's business card and official document if possible as well and do try following up with them as to whom the car is sold to if the paperwork still shows on your name way after its been sold off.

Useful apps like mparivahan and CarINFO should also be checked regularly to ensure that the details are up to date, although sometimes the server can be slow.

Such practices will help avert any insurance scams and more so keep you away from any problems should they occur after you've sold the car.

[Aviator_guy]

Originally Posted by BeemerBug_06

That's why while selling any vehicle always ensure that the following steps are taken :-

- An RTO certified delivery note bearing the signature of the buyer

Could you please elaborate what's this document and where to get it from?