[noopster]

No doubt the Jazz is a head turner. Possibly the best looking car in its segment. But there is little doubt that it is overpriced.

A 1.2 litre 90 BHP hatch has an on-road price of 8.32 lac in Pune OTR ("Select" variant)! Compare that to the 6.89 lac OTR of the Polo 1.6 Highline (which delivers 105BHP to boot). It defies all logic.

I will pay a premium for looks, but not that much.

Edit: The "Polo with a boot" (same specs otherwise, more or less) comes at 9.00 lac OTR. That is VFM because, despite all its magic seat advertising, the Jazz is perceived as just another hatch.

[chevelle]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

You're right.

I'm not disputing that.'m sorry, but was I not clear enough?

As far as I know, the Civic sold in the North American market is still available with the R16A1 engine. Production began in 2007. But with the introduction of the new 9th Gen Civic, this engine might be phased out now, along with the 8th gen Civic.

No, no, you got me wrong here. I am not disputing that you are saying wrong. I was just trying to say that jazz is expensive world wide and no doubt its expensive in India and product overlap with city is very much possible just like it is in other markets especially in US where it overlaps civic.

I was just trying to explain that it must be very hard for Honda people to decide where to price jazz.

FYI, Fit in USA is imported from Japan as a CBU. When i went to honda dealer, it said made in Japan, imported from Japan while in case of civic and accord and other cars it said it is made in USA. I think that's why its priced high. I think similar is the case in India too where most of the components are imported.

The civic in USA is available with 1.8L produced 140 bhp. I am not sure if its called R16A1 or R18A. But i am sure the old 1.6L is no longer available.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by asr245

I do like hatches or hot hatches and had Jazz been launched with 1.5L engine at lauch I would have preferred that over the City. BUT never heard someone say that Jazz was more futuristic than the Civic! Definitely not me. From a distance, looking at the back, I have sometimes confused it with a Innova.

Well, looks an be subjective. So let's leave it a that.

Originally Posted by asr245

By that logic, maybe if we all rode bikes or bicycles it would be even better!

Not really. This is a very relative topic of discussion.

Let me paint you a picture.

You have 9 lakhs to spend and you are in your mid 30s. You probably have one kid and another one is on his way. You're in the market for a car. You want a hassle-free, practical, good looking, fuel-efficient car with space and versatility. Something that will accommodate your family comfortably, has enough space to move the house, since that plan will be in the pipeline; and you definitely want bullet-proof reliability.

This is where people fail to notice the Jazz, because they 'see' it as a hatch-back.

It's much much more than a hatch. It does everything your sedan does, and makes your life on the road easier because it's smaller, all at the same price, if a tad lesser.

Originally Posted by asr245

Well, Indian market hasn't yet reached a state where every family or most families have multiple cars. So we have different requirements from the so called "mature" markets. We need the space to carry 4-5 people along with some luggage for which a boot comes in very handy. Why do think DZire sells? It's definitely not the looks. It's the practicality.

I believe that it has nothing to do with the number of cars in your garage. It has all to do with what you really want and you really need, rather than trying to out-do your neighbour.

Think about it. The Jazz is the perfect car. It has the boot-space and the interior space of a sedan, wrapped in a hatch's body, gives you the reliability and versatility of an MPV, and the efficiency of a small-car, all rolled into one amazing package.

For heaven's sake, I sincerely hope people stop looking at it as a mere 'hatch'.

Originally Posted by asr245

They are selling in India. When selling in India should try to sell what we want to buy (and not buy what they want to sell). Or is Honda above that?

What Honda is trying to do is sell a car, that is actually VFM, but since it is perceived to be a hatch, it is not considered VFM, and instead, exactly the opposite.

Originally Posted by chevelle

The civic in USA is available with 1.8L produced 140 bhp. I am not sure if its called R16A1 or R18A. But i am sure the old 1.6L is no longer available.

The R16A1 is the 1.6 lump. The R18A is the 1.8. From what I know, the Civic is still available with the 1.6 mill in some South-East-Asian markets, like Singapore. Honda has, perhaps, discontinued it. Especially since the 9th Gen Civic is just 'round the corner. Anyway, this is off-topic.

[ampere]

Here is what I would say on the same:

There are many folks, who would love to have a premium hatch (which means high power and all features). Since such products are not many in number, folks shift to the higher segment or pay more diesel. Thats because power is not a compromise.

In fact some time back I was disputing myself between Jazz 1.2 and I20 CRDI!
Given such premium products, one would be willing to pay for such products if its their first car.

For a second car, yes, people may think twice in terms of cost.

[chevelle]

Originally Posted by asr245

They are selling in India. When selling in India should try to sell what we want to buy (and not buy what they want to sell). Or is Honda above that?

Unfortunately for us consumers, each and every car company is doing what's highlighted in bold. otherwise we would have been getting fully equipped cars without any compromise in engines, features, safety.

How else would you explain presence of cars such as thar which has quality issues, ill equipped(no ac) or say jetta which has outdated, underpowered engine or many generation of alto or accent selling side by side?

They are selling it and people are buying it. Can we boycott such cars? Public isn't doing that exactly. Instead we should appreciate manufacturers like Honda who provides safety features in the base models of their cars too which seem to lack in many other competition.

Honda is selling what we want, great looking, high-revving petrol cars, downfall is because of high price and no diesel. Every car company has some problem or other, lets acknowledge that and hope it improves from customers demand and feedback.

P.S: Major cribbing of members here is the PRICE of jazz. That's one of the major setback for an otherwise great hatchback. I hope honda is reading this thread and learns how to price jazz be it 1.2L or 1.5L

[333]

I have not heard or seen any review of the Jazz 1.2, which says, 'All that the Jazz needs now is a more powerful engine to go with the handling and test the chassis at its extreme'. (Reviews of the Punto, Swift and especially the Figo, said this as far as I could recall). Is this because the Jazz din't feel very special on the dynamics front or due to the already pricey positioning of the Jazz?

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by 333

I have not heard or seen any review of the Jazz 1.2, which says, 'All that the Jazz needs now is a more powerful engine to go with the handling and test the chassis at its extreme'. (Reviews of the Punto, Swift and especially the Figo, said this as far as I could recall). Is this because the Jazz din't feel very special on the dynamics front or due to the already pricey positioning of the Jazz?

333,

Do take the trouble of going through the last few pages. You'll see that it has been mentioned before. But I shall take the liberty of mentioning it again.

You see, Honda's new hatch, the Brio, is in the pipeline and the launch date isn't too far away. The Brio should be available at around 5-6 lakhs. It is considerably smaller than the Jazz. It will be powered by the same 1.2 iVtec mill that you'd find in the current Jazz that is sold here in India.

Now to distinguish the Jazz and the Brio for customers, Honda has (probably) decided to face-lift the current Jazz and replace the current 1.2 mill with the City's 1.5 mill.

[asr245]

Originally Posted by chevelle

Unfortunately for us consumers, each and every car company is doing what's highlighted in bold. otherwise we would have been getting fully equipped cars without any compromise in engines, features, safety.

Not everybody wants that. Many here in India give a back seat to safety and consider the cost first. These companies are selling what people want. A car with a boot (read luggage space enough for a couple of suit cases) that seats 5 adults (albeit a little tight) with a diesel under the hood. Even my cousin went for the Ford Ikon as he wanted a "full" car with a diesel engine for under 6L OTR. He upgraded from a scooter so for him (like many many others) that in itself is a major upgrade in terms of safety.

Originally Posted by 333

I have not heard or seen any review of the Jazz 1.2, which says, 'All that the Jazz needs now is a more powerful engine to go with the handling and test the chassis at its extreme'. (Reviews of the Punto, Swift and especially the Figo, said this as far as I could recall). Is this because the Jazz din't feel very special on the dynamics front or due to the already pricey positioning of the Jazz?

I doubt that about the Swift. Infact AFAIK, the K12 engine in the Swift was rated the best (better than Honda's 1.2I-VTEC) by our official team-bhp reviewers in terms of refinement and rev-friendliness.

This has gone way I am going to stop now.

[pgsagar]

Some guys here are trying so hard to sell Jazz to others, more than even Honda itself tried to. Come on guys, Jazz is history now. It was a damp squib to start with. In its new 1.5 avatar, it will sell even less. Give it a decent burial and move on. Brio is future. That is hatch, too. Let us talk about Brio instead.

[drpullockaran]

Well the company might just listen to the car buying public and put in the bigger engine and sell it at the present price after removing some very significant part(joke) like the vanity mirror so that the present owners are not driven to suicide.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

Some guys here are trying so hard to sell Jazz to others, more than even Honda itself tried to. Come on guys, Jazz is history now. It was a damp squib to start with. In its new 1.5 avatar, it will sell even less. Give it a decent burial and move on. Brio is future. That is hatch, too. Let us talk about Brio instead.

Well, I'm a proud owner and an advocate of the car. We feel that we've made the right choice and it saddens me, and I speak on behalf of others who own it to, that people like you in the general car buying public fail to notice the brilliance of this automobile.

If you don't like the Jazz and think it's a damp-squib, as you've referred to it as, then you're in the wrong thread my friend. The Brio thread is around here somewhere. Do a quick search and you should find it.

You might find me there too. As I'm an advocate of, not just the Jazz, but every Honda. And that includes the City as well.

Originally Posted by drpullockaran

Well the company might just listen to the car buying public and put in the bigger engine and sell it at the present price after removing some very significant part(joke) like the vanity mirror so that the present owners are not driven to suicide.

That is funny.

[dot]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

Well, looks an be subjective. So let's leave it a that.

This is where people fail to notice the Jazz, because they 'see' it as a hatch-back.

It's much much more than a hatch. It does everything your sedan does, and makes your life on the road easier because it's smaller, all at the same price, if a tad lesser.

It has all to do with what you really want and you really need, rather than trying to out-do your neighbour.

Think about it. The Jazz is the perfect car. It has the boot-space and the interior space of a sedan, wrapped in a hatch's body, gives you the reliability and versatility of an MPV, and the efficiency of a small-car, all rolled into one amazing package.

For heaven's sake, I sincerely hope people stop looking at it as a mere 'hatch'.

Agree with all of this.

After re-reading the last few pages, my conclusion is that we are saying the same-thing!!
But this discussion is going around circles.

[adimicra]

Originally Posted by asr245

I doubt that about the Swift. Infact AFAIK, the K12 engine in the Swift was rated the best (better than Honda's 1.2I-VTEC) by our official team-bhp reviewers in terms of refinement and rev-friendliness.

Interested to know, which official TBHP reviewer said so? The K12 Swift has a better low end torque but in terms of refinement and rev-happiness, no hatchback matches the 1.2 VTEC of the Jazz!

I wonder have you ever driven the car you are commenting about.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by dot

Agree with all of this.

After re-reading the last few pages, my conclusion is that we are saying the same-thing!!
But this discussion is going around circles.

True. The discussion has been going around in circles. Back to the 1.5 Jazz, then.

Originally Posted by adimicra

Interested to know, which official TBHP reviewer said so? The K12 Swift has a better low end torque but in terms of refinement and rev-happiness, no hatchback matches the 1.2 VTEC of the Jazz!

I wonder have you ever driven the car you are commenting about.

My thoughts exactly. The K Series may have the low-end torque, but is absolutely no match for the brilliance that the 1.2 iVtec is. It's arguably, the most refined and technically sound engine available in a car, this side of 10 lakhs. Please give us the link to the appropriate thread. This is intriguing.

Anyway, this is going very off-topic now.

[selfdrive]

+1 to that, the topic here is the expectations for the 1.5 lump to be launched by Honda, and not a comparo between the Jazz and other vehicles.
IMHO, the 1.5 lump will truly complete what is a great automobile. At times I do feel that the 1.2 is a bit underpowered, especially on steep inclines with 5 adults and a 50% full boot. But then the only other car I drive is a Nano on city roads with 1 adult and 1 child. I am sure the 1.5 would be such a hoot on the same incline. It does seem like it may be postponed due to a cut in production from Honda
The Jazz has a service scheduled this Tuesday so will try to snoop around and ask a few questions

A bit , but does anyone know if there are any resources online) or on tbhp where I could find all the features/ functionality for the Jazz and how to use/ activate them? I did not get a manual when I bought the car.
Another option is for me to ask the SA to explain, but I am unsure how he would react after knowing that I am not a prospective owner but an existing ignorant one