[ampere]

Taking Suhaas's point (the fact that Honda needs to differentiate between Brio and Jazz) from the other side, my guess is that City may also get an upgrade in terms of 1.6 engine or something different.

That way City remains on par to compete with the new kids on the block and at the same, keeps the differentiation with Jazz.

How does that sound for a theory? Any thoughts on that?

[StarrySky]

With a 1.5L engine, the Jazz would lose excise duty benefits - so I think it'll be difficult for Honda to offer it at the same price level as the current 1.2L Jazz. Honda could look at deleting some features to achieve similar pricing, but I'm not sure that the Jazz has many features that could be excluded from a 'premium' hatch (I'm assuming Honda will not delete ABS/Airbag or any other safety equipment from the feature list).

[chevelle]

Originally Posted by ampere

Taking Suhaas's point (the fact that Honda needs to differentiate between Brio and Jazz) from the other side, my guess is that City may also get an upgrade in terms of 1.6 engine or something different.

That way City remains on par to compete with the new kids on the block and at the same, keeps the differentiation with Jazz.

How does that sound for a theory? Any thoughts on that?

AFAIK, Honda doesn't have a 1.6L engine in their line-up. They have 1.5L and then 1.8L in civic. They may have to change current 1.5L and increase its output to match the competition. That would make more sense than making it a 1.6L. That's what i think.

[libranof1987]

Originally Posted by dot

Comparing City and Jazz, just because they might have similar powerplants seems to be a stretch. Maybe it has to do with the fact that most of us can choose only one at a time (me included, BTW).

Jazz is a flamboyant hot hatch wannabe. City is a refined and slick milecruncher. IMHO, thats what it is supposed to be. They portray two totally different images. Going to utility aspects, logic becomes very woolly and person specific.

So, with the same engine; isn't creating competition between its own products?

Someone with a 9l budget but unsure of a hatch or sedan (many such here itself) would be divided between Jazz and City and as you pointed out, can choose only at a time.

So, in effect, it is confusing would-be City customers with Jazz.

Originally Posted by ampere

Taking Suhaas's point (the fact that Honda needs to differentiate between Brio and Jazz) from the other side, my guess is that City may also get an upgrade in terms of 1.6 engine or something different.

That way City remains on par to compete with the new kids on the block and at the same, keeps the differentiation with Jazz.

How does that sound for a theory? Any thoughts on that?

If that happens, City will go closer to Civic; agreed Civic has much more of a premium look but City can't remain at 9l with 1.6l so they'll increase its price. Someone with just about budget for Civic, would rather go for City.

So, Jazz eats into City and City eats into Civic!

Just my opinion.

[normally_crazy]

If Honda gives the Jazz the 1.5 Ltr mill and that AT box from the ANHC - add a ACC and electric mirrors (folding included) - at the current price of the Jazz - my Civic will promptly go on sale.

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by libranof1987

If that happens, City will go closer to Civic; agreed Civic has much more of a premium look but City can't remain at 9l with 1.6l so they'll increase its price. Someone with just about budget for Civic, would rather go for City.

So, Jazz eats into City and City eats into Civic!

Just my opinion.

Highly unlikely !! With the current pricing, City has just been de-throned ! There is no way they are going to improve sales by increasing the price by any margin even for a bigger engine - And especially when people dont feel a need for a bigger engine [I have never heard anyone saying City is underpowered, so was Jazz]. Honda so far reigned as a king in spite of the premium rates was because it didn't have a good competitor. Now things have changed a lot in the C segment. I seriously hope they get a bit more sensible and do the correct steps and make these cars much more VFM! Am sure AHNV & NFS is going to ruin City further.

I think Honda should learn why i20 is selling in huge numbers and try and move in that direction with Jazz as well.

[dot]

Originally Posted by libranof1987

So, with the same engine; isn't creating competition between its own products?

Someone with a 9l budget but unsure of a hatch or sedan (many such here itself) would be divided between Jazz and City and as you pointed out, can choose only at a time.

So, in effect, it is confusing would-be City customers with Jazz.

You have a point. This competition will happen only if the Jazz and City are priced very close to each other.

But that is again assuming that a customer cant decide whether to purchase a hatchback or a sedan. I am guessing 95% of customers will go for the sedan.

But there might be hot hatch lovers (remaining 5%) who might actually buy an expensive hatchback.

If a 1.5L Jazz is launched with a tall price tag, I dont think anyone is expecting that it will set the sales charts on fire. All of us here are probably saying the same thing.

All I am saying is that it is a great opportunity for the 5% walla folks.

[ampere]

@chevelle @libran,

Good points. But Honda will definitely do something to take City to the next level for the competition. Engine may not be the option, as it can eat into Civic. May be spruce up the interiors. But definitely some updates would be in line for the City for sure.

But I am all in for the 1.5L Jazz.

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by normally_crazy

If Honda gives the Jazz the 1.5 Ltr mill and that AT box from the ANHC - add a ACC and electric mirrors (folding included) - at the current price of the Jazz - my Civic will promptly go on sale.

I call for it! Please let me know when you put it on the block

Originally Posted by dot

But there might be hot hatch lovers (remaining 5%) who might actually buy an expensive hatchback.
All I am saying is that it is a great opportunity for the 5% walla folks.

Assuming I am in that 5%, I am perversely pleased that Jazz doesnt do huge volumes. In a way, it maintains a kind of exclusivity on the road, a kind of snob value if one may say. Though I never thought I would say these words, seeing how common the i20 is I am glad I didnt end up buying one. No offence meant to existing owners, just that I see too many

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by dot

Comparing City and Jazz, just because they might have similar powerplants seems to be a stretch. Maybe it has to do with the fact that most of us can choose only one at a time (me included, BTW).

Jazz is a flamboyant hot hatch wannabe. City is a refined and slick milecruncher. IMHO, thats what it is supposed to be. They portray two totally different images. Going to utility aspects, logic becomes very woolly and person specific.

The Jazz and the City, actually, aren't very different. In fact, the City is a re-skinned and 'boot-ed' Jazz. Much like the Fiat Linea and the Punto. There is a fine line in terms of difference when you talk about both cars' handling characteristics as well. After all, they're based on the same chassis.

The Jazz is an International offering. It's sold across the globe as the 'Fit', in markets like US, China etc; and as the Jazz in Europe, Middle-East, Australia, etc. The City, on the other hand, was specifically designed for developing markets like the Thai market and the Indian market.

Originally Posted by ampere

Taking Suhaas's point (the fact that Honda needs to differentiate between Brio and Jazz) from the other side, my guess is that City may also get an upgrade in terms of 1.6 engine or something different.

That way City remains on par to compete with the new kids on the block and at the same, keeps the differentiation with Jazz.

How does that sound for a theory? Any thoughts on that?

Originally Posted by chevelle

AFAIK, Honda doesn't have a 1.6L engine in their line-up. They have 1.5L and then 1.8L in civic. They may have to change current 1.5L and increase its output to match the competition. That would make more sense than making it a 1.6L. That's what i think.

Very interesting theory Amepre. I'm not sure if there is a 1.6 litre iVtec motor in the pipeline though. In all probability, the Jazz might get a 1.4 litre iVtec lump that's popular across the range in several countries and the City might retain its 1.5 litre engine. However, introducing a new engine into our market might not be feasible for Honda right now, considering the costs involved.

EDIT: There is, in fact, a 1.6 litre iVtec lump (R16A1), but that is found in the 8th gen Civic. It's probably found in the base Civic. if I'm not wrong, it was sold in South-East Asian Markets.

Originally Posted by StarrySky

With a 1.5L engine, the Jazz would lose excise duty benefits - so I think it'll be difficult for Honda to offer it at the same price level as the current 1.2L Jazz. Honda could look at deleting some features to achieve similar pricing, but I'm not sure that the Jazz has many features that could be excluded from a 'premium' hatch (I'm assuming Honda will not delete ABS/Airbag or any other safety equipment from the feature list).

The Jazz never enjoyed any benefits with regard to excise-duty. The Jazz that is being sold here is 4000mm + long and that does not let it qualify for the benefits. So introducing the 1.5 litre lump from the City will not change or alter the price, unless Honda themselves decide to hike the prices.

[dot]

Originally Posted by selfdrive

Assuming I am in that 5%, I am perversely pleased that Jazz doesnt do huge volumes. In a way, it maintains a kind of exclusivity on the road, a kind of snob value if one may say. Though I never thought I would say these words, seeing how common the i20 is I am glad I didnt end up buying one. No offence meant to existing owners, just that I see too many

Exactly.

It is so difficult to get exclusivity these days. Take a BMW or a Merc for instance on Pune roads. It looks like no one even bothers to turn their heads towards them these days. Below our office there is a Tapri besides which a Laura fellow parks his car daily. The bonnet and the trunk becomes a tea cup holder very soon. One of these days I will take a pic and post it here.

If Honda is giving some unintentional exclusivity, why not take it

Edit: @Suhaas307, I am aware of the Jazz's (Fit) and City's commonality. Just trying to emphasize on the image and exclusivity without worrying about sales numbers.

[adimicra]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

The Jazz never enjoyed any benefits with regard to excise-duty. The Jazz that is being sold here is 4000mm + long and that does not let it qualify for the benefits. So introducing the 1.5 litre lump from the City will not change or alter the price, unless Honda themselves decide to hike the prices.

I thought Jazz is 3900 mm long...so enjoys excise benefits. Can you check once more?

There is some point in having a comparison etween the City and Jazz if both comes with the same power plant.
When I last checked, considering discounts on offer, Jazz X was 2L+ cheaper than City V with more features - CD player, remote boot opening etc. SO, expect the new Jazz 1.5 to be at least 1.5 L cheaper than ANHC -V.

I will leave out subjective things like looks and image.

The point where Jazz wins hands down is the interiors and the overall premium feel - the City can't hold a candle to it, period.

Space - both are same.

Rear seat comfort - City wins easily.

Handling - Having driven both cars quite often, I find Jazz to be better may be because of the stiffer suspension. Maneuverability in the city - Jazz wins.

Ride - City has better low speed ride whereas Jazz is same or better at higher speeds.

Boot/Luggage carrying capacity - City has 500L boot whereas Jazz has 384L. But believe me, without even the magic seats, Jazz can hold so much luggage that it is unbelievable. Try fitting four large lags in the boot of each car and you will see what I am talking about.

Versatility - This is where Jazz wins easily. With all those bottle holders near AC vents , magic seat configuration, extra space here n there.

To conclude, if you are not image conscious about buying a sedan and the car is mostly going to be self driven, the Jazz makes more sense.
The 1.5 L price difference is the icing on the cake.

My 2 cents!

[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

The Jazz never enjoyed any benefits with regard to excise-duty. The Jazz that is being sold here is 4000mm + long and that does not let it qualify for the benefits.

Originally Posted by adimicra

I thought Jazz is 3900 mm long...so enjoys excise benefits. Can you check once more?

adimicra is right. The overall length for Jazz is listed as 3900mm.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by dot

Edit: @Suhaas307, I am aware of the Jazz's (Fit) and City's commonality. Just trying to emphasize on the image and exclusivity without worrying about sales numbers.

In terms of image, I would say it's subjective again. The Jazz, as you've mentioned, is the more 'exclusive' car. So I don't know why the City enjoys 'image'. Is it because of the boot? If it is, then it's very silly IMO. But then again, we're talking about the Jazz and the City with reference to the Indian market, where a prominent boot is as important as a male child.

Originally Posted by adimicra

I thought Jazz is 3900 mm long...so enjoys excise benefits. Can you check once more?

Originally Posted by StarrySky

adimicra is right. The overall length for Jazz is listed as 3900mm.

You're absolutely right! I don't know why I said that. Must have slipped my mind.

The Jazz is indeed 3900 mm long. So will this cause problems for Honda in terms of excise-duty benefits? Or will they introduce the face-lifted Jazz with standard bumpers (not redesigned for benefits)?

Here is a picture of what the new Jazz might look like:

Originally Posted by adimicra

There is some point in having a comparison between the City and Jazz if both comes with the same power plant...



...To conclude, if you are not image conscious about buying a sedan and the car is mostly going to be self driven, the Jazz makes more sense.
The 1.5 L price difference is the icing on the cake.

My 2 cents!

I agree, wholeheartedly, with everything you've said. Especially with the point regarding the boot-space and the versatility.

[selfdrive]

Originally Posted by dot

Below our office there is a Tapri besides which a Laura fellow parks his car daily. The bonnet and the trunk becomes a tea cup holder very soon. One of these days I will take a pic and post it here.
If Honda is giving some unintentional exclusivity, why not take it

Ooh, that would be a fun pic to see! I was just talking with a neighbour the other day and he mentioned that even my Nano would get more attention (easily recognisable by kids) than other high end cars. The next time I drove the Nano, I tried to see how people reacted and it is a bit true. Many people turn around for a second glance (maybe they find it funny or cute), but dont look at other better engineered/ more expensive cars. I guess it is the Indian way of liking a car by choosing more emotion than reason.

Originally Posted by adimicra

The point where Jazz wins hands down is the interiors and the overall premium feel - the City can't hold a candle to it, period.

A bit similar to preferring to be a big fish in a small pond than being the same sized fish in the ocean?

Originally Posted by suhaas307

In terms of image, I would say it's subjective again. The Jazz, as you've mentioned, is the more 'exclusive' car. So I don't know why the City enjoys 'image'. Is it because of the boot? If it is, then it's very silly IMO. But then again, we're talking about the Jazz and the City with reference to the Indian market, where a prominent boot is as important as a male child.

+1 to that; some of the opinions are downright ridiculous. Some others are is it the 'top end' version; is it a 'showroom model' (term for new purchase I guess!). And I dont think I should start my rant about preferences for features such as ACC/ USB connectivity over Airbags/ ABS.

If they get the 1.5 motor, I need to buy a piggy bank soon. It should be a great buy; unfortunately for me I will have to let go of the 1.2 then.