[SunilM]

Originally Posted by Abhi_Automobile

As I said earlier, Jazz is not 'Mini', where brand value is very important. Its just a fantastic hatch destroyed by the price.

Do you think we indians will not bash Mini for being overpriced if at all it is launched in India

My friend brought a 75L flat in Pune, while looking for a car, he found a 5L car he liked, thought it to be too expensive and finally brought an Alto! Affordability was not an issue for him, he just wouldn't pay 2L more for an "almost" similar car (in his opinion!). For most, a car takes them from point A to B, while protecting from weather and is safer than a 2-wheeler. With such attitude, no wonder majority among us find the Jazz overpriced.

Look at the overall quality that honda provides with a Jazz. Is is possible that the Honda marketing guys don't know that it will sell more if priced cheaper? Sure they do, but it is probably not possible to sell it at a lesser price point - they don't sell it cheaper anywhere else in the world, they can't sell it in India also. It costs a lot to build a well engineered car - especially if you are not a copycat! You get what you pay for.

I appreciate Honda for not compromising on quality to cheapofy the Jazz and I am sure there are many like me. Honda should give the Jazz a few more years, I am sure it will sell in good numbers - maybe we are not quite ready for a product like Jazz as yet. It will be a shame if Honda is forced to withdraw Jazz from India.

[snorting bull]

Originally Posted by selfdrive

A bit , but does anyone know if there are any resources online) or on tbhp where I could find all the features/ functionality for the Jazz and how to use/ activate them? I did not get a manual when I bought the car.
Another option is for me to ask the SA to explain, but I am unsure how he would react after knowing that I am not a prospective owner but an existing ignorant one

You may want to check Small details of Jazz. you may find a few of them.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

I'm not sure if you know this, but the Jazz retails at just a little less money than the Civic, everywhere else in the World. And I'm talking about Europe and the UK and all South-East-Asian markets. It is pricier than cars like the Micra that fall in its range in those markets.

Just on this point alone, here is a comparison on how Honda cars are priced here in Singapore. I have taken all AT models, with similar spec versions for the Jazz and City. And the Civic is added just for comparison sake.

Disclaimer: Strictly for information purpose only

[crazyro]

Originally Posted by SunilM

Do you think we indians will not bash Mini for being overpriced if at all it is launched in India

My friend brought a 75L flat in Pune, while looking for a car, he found a 5L car he liked, thought it to be too expensive and finally brought an Alto! Affordability was not an issue for him, he just wouldn't pay 2L more for an "almost" similar car (in his opinion!). For most, a car takes them from point A to B, while protecting from weather and is safer than a 2-wheeler. With such attitude, no wonder majority among us find the Jazz overpriced.

Look at the overall quality that honda provides with a Jazz. Is is possible that the Honda marketing guys don't know that it will sell more if priced cheaper? Sure they do, but it is probably not possible to sell it at a lesser price point - they don't sell it cheaper anywhere else in the world, they can't sell it in India also. It costs a lot to build a well engineered car - especially if you are not a copycat! You get what you pay for.

I appreciate Honda for not compromising on quality to cheapofy the Jazz and I am sure there are many like me. Honda should give the Jazz a few more years, I am sure it will sell in good numbers - maybe we are not quite ready for a product like Jazz as yet. It will be a shame if Honda is forced to withdraw Jazz from India.

Totally agree with you. I have seen so many posts advising Honda to reduce the price...please do you guys seriously think Honda guys are so foolish. They would have done it if it was possible...and I guess they dont want to sell their cars below the cost price for a loss like some other manufactures might be doing.

[Abhi_Automobile]

crazyro
Re: Honda Jazz F/L with 1.5 coming by June end
I have seen so many posts advising Honda to reduce the price...please do you guys seriously think Honda guys are so foolish. They would have done it if it was possible...and I guess they dont want to sell their cars below the cost price for a loss like some other manufactures might be doing.

No, but I do think that they are greedy. They have a tendency to price their products at a premium.

Now, give some attention to this: With the constant improvement over the years, Hyundai is dangerously close to both Honda and Toyota in terms of overall product quality. While I think that Germans can still get away with better quality in terms of materials used (build etc...we have discussed these things to death already), the same is not the case with the Japs. I think they are losing ground to Hyundai; and fast! More so Honda than Toyota.

I have said it earlier and will say it for the last time, I like quite a few Honda products. I want them to be more agile and innovative as a company and fight the battle on even terms. A good example is VW: their cars, more often than not, priced at a slight premium to Japs (better ones like Honda/Toyota/Nissan) in world markets , right? But in India, they want to be successful and seem to be willing to go the extra mile for it. The Vento was priced cheaper than ANHC, despite boasting of diesel engine. The Passat is within a lakh of Accord, despite being clearly a superior product (and a stonker diesel). All I am trying to suggest is that Honda needs to be more competitive in the market and improve its products to the next level if it want to maintain any kind of edge oven Hyundai.

PS: The POLO losing money with each car sold was obviously a marketing funda. Its a form of 'viral marketing'.

[mdsaab]

Originally Posted by vb-san

Just on this point alone, here is a comparison on how Honda cars are priced here in Singapore. I have taken all AT models, with similar spec versions for the Jazz and City. And the Civic is added just for comparison sake.

Disclaimer: Strictly for information purpose only

thanks for this comparo. Still cant understand why it has to be priced so high. Is the jazz a niche product in hondas portfolio? Is there anything super special in the build quality of the jazz? Does Honda think the jazz is a suv? Why would it be priced so close to the similar spec civic? And even more than the city. This really puzzles me.
I do think the jazz is a fabulous car, buy why position it this way?

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by Abhi_Automobile

No, but I do think that they are greedy. They have a tendency to price their products at a premium.

I do not agree. You pay a premium for a premium product. All Honda cars are built to please their customers, in terms of engineering and technology. And that comes at a price. It takes a lot of moolah to build the car in the first place.

Originally Posted by Abhi_Automobile

Now, give some attention to this: With the constant improvement over the years, Hyundai is dangerously close to both Honda and Toyota in terms of overall product quality. While I think that Germans can still get away with better quality in terms of materials used (build etc...we have discussed these things to death already), the same is not the case with the Japs. I think they are losing ground to Hyundai; and fast! More so Honda than Toyota.

I do agree. Hyundai is catching up fast, in terms of technology and innovations. The engineering is steadily becoming better. And the major plus point that Hyundai has is the range of diesel engines that they have on offer.

That is Honda's weakest link.

Originally Posted by Abhi_Automobile

A good example is VW: their cars, more often than not, priced at a slight premium to Japs (better ones like Honda/Toyota/Nissan) in world markets , right? But in India, they want to be successful and seem to be willing to go the extra mile for it. The Vento was priced cheaper than ANHC, despite boasting of diesel engine. The Passat is within a lakh of Accord, despite being clearly a superior product (and a stonker diesel). All I am trying to suggest is that Honda needs to be more competitive in the market and improve its products to the next level if it want to maintain any kind of edge oven Hyundai.

You do know that VW has compromised on quality, right? Do go through the Polo and Vento threads, and take a test-drive for yourself and you'll see that they could have done better in terms of quality. What I mean to say is, they aren't on-par with their European counterparts, in terms of quality.

But Honda has not compromised. They make it here in India, just like they make it elsewhere. Honestly, you can't have the best of both worlds. There is no 'perfect' car.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by mdsaab

thanks for this comparo. Still cant understand why it has to be priced so high. Is the jazz a niche product in hondas portfolio? Is there anything super special in the build quality of the jazz? Does Honda think the jazz is a suv? Why would it be priced so close to the similar spec civic? And even more than the city. This really puzzles me.
I do think the jazz is a fabulous car, buy why position it this way?

Well, you need to own one and live with one to understand that. Like I've said before, it's not a hatchback. You would be making a mistake by calling it a 'hatchback', because it's so much more than that. Think of it as a multi-utility vehicle. A car that does everything that the City can, at one lakh less. Then it starts to make sense!

[dot]

Originally Posted by mdsaab

Still cant understand why it has to be priced so high. Is the jazz a niche product in hondas portfolio? Is there anything super special in the build quality of the jazz? Does Honda think the jazz is a suv? Why would it be priced so close to the similar spec civic? And even more than the city. This really puzzles me.
I do think the jazz is a fabulous car, buy why position it this way?

In a developed market, one can position a premium product, even though it serves a small segment. I guess in S'pore market, the Jazz 1.5 and (Civic 2.0) are premium products that some enthusiast or a yuppie can yearn to possess. I remember seeing the Civic 2.0 ad in S'pore. The ad said "get this for the expressway". Could not stop laughing, where and how much is S'pore expressway? Anyways the speed limit is 95/100 Kmph, if I remember correctly.
But buyers are there.

P.S: @mdsaab, noticed your 500th post, so did mine too!

[snorting bull]

Originally Posted by Abhi_Automobile

PS: The POLO losing money with each car sold was obviously a marketing funda. Its a form of 'viral marketing'.

This is OT :
I don't agree that POLO is losing money. Perhaps they expected more in the profit, which they are mentioning as 84K less.;-) 84K is quite some money to declare as loss.

Coming back to 1.5 - I think India should retain variants of Jazz with 1.2 & introduce 1.5 engines like other countries. With the kind of traffic in Chennai, you never get to go smooth. All the more, I am more interested in a good mileage and recovering my costs of my Jazz. Except for a couple of accessories, and probably a 50K more that I paid more than a typical car, I am a very very satisfied customer of Jazz. There are folks who also questioned me in a shop, as to why I bought a Jazz instead of a city. I am not clear why folks don't understand that some people like me don't want a sedan. I too don't agree with "most people in India tend to see sedan to be a pride. Big money = Big car. ".

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by mdsaab

thanks for this comparo. Still cant understand why it has to be priced so high. Is the jazz a niche product in hondas portfolio? Is there anything super special in the build quality of the jazz? Does Honda think the jazz is a suv? Why would it be priced so close to the similar spec civic? And even more than the city. This really puzzles me.
I do think the jazz is a fabulous car, buy why position it this way?

Couple of reasons here. In most of the developed market, they need to price the Civic very competitively, mainly to counter the immediate rivals like the Corolla Altis. And Jazz / Fit have always been a popular model for Honda. It holds a very good reputation among the buyers due to its features / utility nature, and hassle-free ownership experience. Another key point here is – these sedans, developed from an original hatch is a compromise done for very specific markets, and they need to play the price advantage in those markets. This is not the case with Honda alone. The VW Golf is priced higher than the Jetta in many markets (with the same engine and feature list).

Originally Posted by dot

In a developed market, one can position a premium product, even though it serves a small segment. I guess in S'pore market, the Jazz 1.5 and (Civic 2.0) are premium products that some enthusiast or a yuppie can yearn to possess. I remember seeing the Civic 2.0 ad in S'pore. The ad said "get this for the expressway". Could not stop laughing, where and how much is S'pore expressway? Anyways the speed limit is 95/100 Kmph, if I remember correctly.
But buyers are there.

Partially agree. Civic 2.0 is considered as a premium, and the largest selling variant here is the 1.8. But Jazz 1.5 with the specs I mentioned in my comparison is not the top end version. What I added in are the regular mid-variants which have similar specs of the top end City. And here the Jazz is doing very well, and also holds good value in the re-sale market as well.

OT: The ‘expressway’ thing is funny right? I always think of this whenever I see a Maserati, or an X5 M crawling in around 100kmph

[Abhi_Automobile]

@suhaas

You do know that VW has compromised on quality, right? Do go through the Polo and Vento threads, and take a test-drive for yourself and you'll see that they could have done better in terms of quality. What I mean to say is, they aren't on-par with their European counterparts, in terms of quality.

But Honda has not compromised. They make it here in India, just like they make it elsewhere. Honestly, you can't have the best of both worlds. There is no 'perfect' car

Yes, agreed. I do think that VW has compromised a little on the quality front to keep the costs down. However, the Vento, despite compromised quality is 'shockingly' still better built than ANHC I am not a blind VW supporter, but I do appreciate their determination to be successful. Remember, by VW standards, 'compromise on quality' does not equate to 'poop quality' as is the case with many other manufacturers.

And what about Passat. It is clearly so much better than Accord, still priced competitively.

@snorting bull

This is OT :
I don't agree that POLO is losing money. Perhaps they expected more in the profit, which they are mentioning as 84K less.;-) 84K is quite some money to declare as loss.

Thats what I said. They are definitely not losing money. This was hoax create to convey the message that :'We are committed to India'. Although, VW tends to have very high cost structure as compared to other manufacturers, so they MUST be making very thin margins.


I am not able to get the 'Originally posted by __' message in my copy-pastes.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by Abhi_Automobile

@suhaas

Yes, agreed. I do think that VW has compromised a little on the quality front to keep the costs down. However, the Vento, despite compromised quality is 'shockingly' still better built than ANHC I am not a blind VW supporter, but I do appreciate their determination to be successful. Remember, by VW standards, 'compromise on quality' does not equate to 'poop quality' as is the case with many other manufacturers.

And what about Passat. It is clearly so much better than Accord, still priced competitively.

It's true. The ANHC is not up to the mark in terms of quality. But, they make it here in India, just like the way it's made elsewhere. So in that sense, there is no compromise.

But it's true! They could improve the build-quality and feel of the City inside.

Are you talking about the new Passat? The old Passat was on-par with the Accord, if you ask me. The new one though, is just one helluva brilliant product! And miles head of the competition now.

And is the Passat a CBU or is it assembled here in India? I'm not sure. The Accord is assembled here though, if I'm not wrong.

Anyway, this is going

Let's get back to the actual discussion, please. The Jazz 1.5.

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by SunilM

I appreciate Honda for not compromising on quality to cheapofy the Jazz and I am sure there are many like me. Honda should give the Jazz a few more years, I am sure it will sell in good numbers - maybe we are not quite ready for a product like Jazz as yet. It will be a shame if Honda is forced to withdraw Jazz from India.

Originally Posted by crazyro

Totally agree with you. I have seen so many posts advising Honda to reduce the price...please do you guys seriously think Honda guys are so foolish. They would have done it if it was possible...and I guess they dont want to sell their cars below the cost price for a loss like some other manufactures might be doing.

Have you guys overlooked the discounts offered for Jazz? Its a 55,000/- or so offered on Jazz sometime back and I guess its still applicable. Even if you give Jazz another 5 years with this kind of pricing, it will still flop without doubt. India is a very price sensitive market and any manufacture should offer products which seem VFM for it to be a hit. And If India is not ready for products like Jazz [premium hatchback] why do we have i20 sales constantly at 5000+ units MOM ??

I agree with some of your points on quality & engineering of Honda. But then that alone doesn't make a point for sale. Else all Honda products should have been the best sellers in their respective segments.

[S2!!!]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

I do not agree. You pay a premium for a premium product. All Honda cars are built to please their customers, in terms of engineering and technology. And that comes at a price.

I just read this little line of yours in your post and could not help comment on it. So Suhaas307, isn't that the duty/the basic goal of every car manufacturer?? A satisfied customer is what every business firm desires and thus all the companies try their best to please their customers in terms of the " engineering and technology" of their product. It is a different thing that the market is vast with dissimilar buyers whose wants and needs differ from each other hence the product maybe appealing to some and not to others.

Honda is no exception in this case. They are trying to aim for those who wish to shell out a lil more dough for their cars and have that "so called" premium vehicle. Yes I agree their engines are quite refined and fuel efficient at the same time but having said that their premium is not justifiable IMO. Its not like the other car manufacturers are offering products just to be in the market. There are many whose USP is fuel efficiency due to which they are stripped down and heavily criticised on this forum for having thinner tyres and no airbags/abs. What people donot understand is that these are basic point a to point b vehicles used 99% of times in the city where fuel efficiency is key. These car manufacturers are trying their level best in earning each customer by providing them with a product "engineered" to suit their demands and needs.

And I am really tired of hearing that Jazz is in a league of its own from Jazz owners who wish to justify every single time why they spent 7+ lakhs on the car which is pretty much the same what a 5 lakh car is. I mean how often do you guys use the magic seats. 1ce or 2ce probably to carry luggage and passengers. A car with a 60:40 rear seat can do the job for those miniscule occasions IMO. The music system is just about good. Airbags and Abs is offered by several at a price point much below. Space is good enough though. Quality is good. Price is literally horrendous. I donot care what the car is sold for in other markets. This is India. You satisfy the Indian customer the way we like not the way your overseas markets tell you.

I was at the Jazz showroom and the sales guy kept saying its in a different league.
How I ask? And he keeps emphasizing on the magic seats and its countless configurations.
What else? He talks about the engine, which I felt is very similar to the K-series in terms of power. Infact contrary to other reviews I felt the engine straining a bit on that side of 4500rpm and hence kept it in the midrange.
And any other? Yes its a premium car. Ok I would have bought it had they not asked me to shell out 7.8lakhs on it. At 6.8lakhs I would have probably bought it. At 5.8 lakhs I would have signed the cheque immediately.

[bluevolt]

I think we are having quite bickering over here in this thread among Honda lovers and Honda criticizers. Is there any 'concrete' info whether Honda is really launching a 1.5 L Jazz or we are only making speculations?

See no car is perfect and everyone will support the favorites. As they say to each his own. Everyone knows that Jazz/city is overpriced yet they are selling. There are reasons for that and hope everyone knows why they are selling. For one who hasn't driven a Honda car, really don't know what an Honda is after all.

If Honda brings up a 1.5 L jazz it will sell for sure, maybe in less numbers (every car cannot be hot selling). It's Honda's problem to price the car, they can’t bear losses just by reducing the price. They must be having their own plans and aims for Indian market. It is up to the company only to decide how they price their cars.

Try to understand various scenarios of Indian automotive industry and act in a manner in which team-bhpians are known for.

@MODS we need your intervention here please.