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Came across this video about a wind powered concept car which undertook a drive of 5000 Kms. The car takes most of its power from a mobile wind turbine which is then stored in a Li-ion battery pack. When wind energy was not possible, energy was taken from the grid. This resulted in a fuel bill of 10 euros for the trip.

Evonik Industries - Specialty chemicals - Wind Explorer

Hope it is interesting.

P.S: I dont work for this company.

[ukderebail]

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[gshanky]

Here is something that could change the game IF the research is successful.

A group of Massachusetts Institute of Technology students may have come up with the perfect solution to our electric vehicle charging woes. Instead of relying on lithium or nickel, the new battery design stores its electrons in semi-solid flow cells. Charged particles are suspended in an electrolyte solution and pumped between compartments used for storing or releasing energy. The tech supposedly makes the batteries up to ten times more efficient than their traditional counterparts, and even more importantly, the new tech is cheaper to produce. Estimates say that the design could cut the size and expense of current batteries by as much as 50 percent.

That's all well and good, but the really cool part is that charging the cells is as simple as pumping the drained fluid out and pumping fresh charged fluid in. That means that getting on your way could take as little time as a standard gasoline fill-up, greatly reducing the inconvenience and range woes associated with modern EVs. An operational prototype is expected to be completed in the next 18 months or so.

source - MIT Figures Out a Way to Refuel Electric Cars With Liquid Fuel « Electric Motorcycle Blog

[puneet_b]

I once saw a top gear episode where one of the 3 were driving a hydrogen powered Honda, I think it was a honda. Even though the price of the fuel as shown in the episode was the same as fuel I reckon it won't be an issue since hydrogen is as they stated abundantly available. That technology seemed matured enough to be brought into mass production once its practical I feel.

[sharma_sanjeevi]

Interesting discussion on this thread & informative too.

Wonder, what happened to the MDI Air powered car which was supposed to be launched by TATA Motors. Any information on that ? It was a very interesting concept and the cars were having a good range also. IIRC, single air fill can take the car upto 200 kms.

[RS_DEL]

Originally Posted by gshanky

Here is something that could change the game IF the research is successful.



source - MIT Figures Out a Way to Refuel Electric Cars With Liquid Fuel « Electric Motorcycle Blog

Following is the link to the article describing this development on the MIT servers. Article Link. As is evident from the article the technology for these kind of batteries has existed for some time. The bugbear was the energy density, the very aspect that makes the fossil fuel segment the winner till date.

They have not disclosed any details on the cathode, anode and electrolyte materials used in their development. The good news in the article is that the costing estimates arrived at in their proof of concept (if you will )/prototypes is lower than the LiCo and LiFP. If they are making this assertion and can bring this to market, then we are indeed looking at something revolutionary to the extent that it can be termed a game changer. Why? It will render redundant the need for charging infrastructure which is the main constraint in EVs today. I have not listed range as a constraint as Li based battery packs have reasonable range built in to them.

However as the saying goes many a slip between the cup and the lip.

[sgiitk]

@puneet_b; Cheap and available hyrogen, forget it. Yes, water coverys the bulk of this planet, so it is all round us. Please go through the thread and learn for yourself that producing hydrogen is a big issue today, and likely to remain so in the foreseeable future.

[puneet_b]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

@puneet_b; Cheap and available hyrogen, forget it. Yes, water coverys the bulk of this planet, so it is all round us. Please go through the thread and learn for yourself that producing hydrogen is a big issue today, and likely to remain so in the foreseeable future.

Sorry skipped from the title to the very end. I'll do that..

[burnt.]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

@puneet_b; Cheap and available hyrogen, forget it. Yes, water coverys the bulk of this planet, so it is all round us. Please go through the thread and learn for yourself that producing hydrogen is a big issue today, and likely to remain so in the foreseeable future.

Honda FCX Clarity is the car being talked about. Here is an excerpt from the wiki page -

The FCX Clarity is currently available for lease in the U.S., Japan and Europe. In the U.S., it is only available to customers who live in Southern California where "fast-fill" hydrogen stations are available. As of 2010, 20 FCX Clarity are leased for US$600 a month which includes collision coverage, maintenance, roadside assistance and hydrogen fuel. There are around 10 others on lease in Japan and another 10 in Europe. The number of fuel cell vehicles Honda can put on the road is significantly limited by the number of hydrogen station the company can use. Two more stations will open in fall 2010 in Torrance, Calif., and in Newport Beach, Calif. In 2010, it is reported that there are a total of 50 FCX Clarity available for lease in the U.S. with a target to have 200 available world-wide. Honda believes it could start mass producing vehicles based on the FCX Clarity by 2018.

And I remember reading somewhere that hydrogen is not much more expensive that petrol in California. This car is available only for leasing and not for sale.

As of 2010, 20 FCX Clarity are leased for US$600 a month which includes collision coverage, maintenance, roadside assistance and hydrogen fuel.

Link: Honda FCX Clarity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[vina]

Originally Posted by RS_DEL

...

They have not disclosed any details on the cathode, anode and electrolyte materials used in their development. The good news in the article is that the costing estimates arrived at in their proof of concept (if you will )/prototypes is lower than the LiCo and LiFP. If they are making this assertion and can bring this to market, then we are indeed looking at something revolutionary to the extent that it can be termed a game changer. Why? It will render redundant the need for charging infrastructure which is the main constraint in EVs today. ...

How will the charging infrastructure become redundant? Don't these batteries need to be charged?

[RS_DEL]

Originally Posted by vina

How will the charging infrastructure become redundant? Don't these batteries need to be charged?

If my understanding is correct, the batteries batteries in question i.e. batteries using the a semi-solid flow cell, are recharged by draining the spent electrolyte and refilling the battery with usable electrolyte, much like our visit to the fuel bunks for having our cars filled.

As opposed to the above, EVs' as of today using battery packs made of batteries of chemistries in use today rely on the grid for recharging. So someone living in a bungalow can recharge their vehicle(s) overnight for use during the next day. This facility can be replicated in multi-story apartment complexes which have their own compounds with dedicated parking spaces by developing dedicated recharging points. However people living in the cities in high rise dwellings where there is no dedicated parking in an enclosed compound need pay-per-use kind of electric charging points or a service provider such as "Better Place" . Both the options have not really worked out for a variety of reasons. That has been one of the primary reasons for the lack of enthusiasm for these kind of vehicles, in addition to the fact that while the cost of operation of EVs' may be low the initial cost is high.

So a development that can ensure [a] lower initial cost, [b] similar range and power delivery as a Li based EV, and [c] same refuelling/recharging convenience as ICE block powered vehicle, needs to be watched with interest.

[vina]

Originally Posted by RS_DEL

If my understanding is correct, the batteries batteries in question i.e. batteries using the a semi-solid flow cell, are recharged by draining the spent electrolyte and refilling the battery with usable electrolyte, much like our visit to the fuel bunks for having our cars filled.

As opposed to the above, EVs' as of today using battery packs made of batteries of chemistries in use today rely on the grid for recharging. So someone living in a bungalow can recharge their vehicle(s) overnight for use during the next day. This facility can be replicated in multi-story apartment complexes which have their own compounds with dedicated parking spaces by developing dedicated recharging points. However people living in the cities in high rise dwellings where there is no dedicated parking in an enclosed compound need pay-per-use kind of electric charging points or a service provider such as "Better Place" . Both the options have not really worked out for a variety of reasons. That has been one of the primary reasons for the lack of enthusiasm for these kind of vehicles, in addition to the fact that while the cost of operation of EVs' may be low the initial cost is high.

So a development that can ensure [a] lower initial cost, [b] similar range and power delivery as a Li based EV, and [c] same refuelling/recharging convenience as ICE block powered vehicle, needs to be watched with interest.

I saw the article after posting my previous post.

It raises more questions than it answers -

1. what happens when you go to the "electrolyte pump" but the battery is, let us say, still only half discharged. How do you pay for the fresh electrolyte in this case?
2. What is efficiency and energy density of such batteries and how fast can they deliver that energy to the motors?
3. How is this more optimal than swapping the whole battery out of the car (an Israeli company is already doing that)
4. ...

[RS_DEL]

Originally Posted by vina

I saw the article after posting my previous post.

It raises more questions than it answers -

1. what happens when you go to the "electrolyte pump" but the battery is, let us say, still only half discharged. How do you
2. ...

Very true indeed. More questions than answers. I will look at the issues related to practical day to day usage if they can conclusively prove that at a fundamental level their technology/product is ready for being brought to market via widely conducted trials. Till such time this is another concept which has potential but is subject to a very big IF (in all caps, bold and underlined to boot).

[vina]

Originally Posted by RS_DEL

Very true indeed. More questions than answers. I will look at the issues related to practical day to day usage if they can conclusively prove that at a fundamental level their technology/product is ready for being brought to market via widely conducted trials. Till such time this is another concept which has potential but is subject to a very big IF (in all caps, bold and underlined to boot).

You are right, it will indeed be interesting. This technology is like "fuel cell with special fuel"

The battery swap thing I was referring to earlier is here: Battery Switch Stations | Better Place


Israel and Aurtralia have some stations already - this solves the battery charging time problem almost completely and also the batteries can be leased rather than bought outright, so the manufacturing related variations (e.g. some batteries having longer life than others) will not effect individual buyers.

It can also be cheaper both because user "rents" the battery and pays less upfront and also because with the financial muscle of a huge company the interests etc. paid on capital are lower.

[RS_DEL]

Originally Posted by vina

You are right, it will indeed be interesting. This technology is like "fuel cell with special fuel"

he battery and pays less upfront and also because with the financial muscle of a huge company the interests etc. paid on capital are lower.

Yes, I am aware of Better Place. I guess you have not noticed I have referred to them in a couple of posts in this thread. The Better Place guys per their website have signed up to enter China as well. If they can make their Chinese foray work, they will have massive economies of scale working for them globally.

The other issue that will need resolution WRT EVs' is the near monopoly of the Chinese on minor metals/rare earth elements, as they are critical to the manufacturing of electric motors. Here is a link to an interesting article on the subject.