[rutvij]

Any news about launch of next generation civic and compact SUV?

[pdma]

Honda does not have any leverage of resources or capacity currently and I see the launch of Jazz putting them in a tight corner. Hence i do not see any scope for new launches post Jazz. Even I have eyes & ears open for the Vezel debut in our Market but it ain't happening anytime soon for sure.

[adimicra]

When Honda launched the IDTEC engine in India, I saw the power and FE numbers and felt great...it seemed the best of both worlds and a game changer.
But, when I drove one, my perception changed. The diesel engine is noisy and unrefined. Also, while the drive-ability was very good, it hardly feels like a 100 PS car. I wonder where is all that power. May be the power is generated in the higher rpms and with all the noise, one would not really like it to be revved higher. I would like Honda to come up with a next iteration of the diesel engine with much better refinement. It really doesn't feel adequate for 10L Rs. car like the City.

Secondly, as someone said, Honda seems to have made a total U-turn with respect to the Indian market. They are trying to be competitive with the pricing but cutting corners to achieve so. The reason Honda is doing so well is because of their brand image, the new diesel engine and the fact that the cars are mostly new. But the Honda brand in India is definitely taking a beating with the sub-par quality of the new launches And if Honda doesn't rectify it soon, I feel they are going to go down from here. The City will still sell well as it enjoys huge brand equity and is a de facto choice for the C2 segment (like the Swift for the B/B+ segment) but their other cars will suffer sooner than later.

[ampere]

Very well put @adi. Two aspects to that point. Firstly, Honda had to take a beating with non-availability of diesel engines to rediscover the fact that; market, will not accept what you throw at it; even if you have brand value.

Secondly, ones needs to continuously swim to prevent oneself from drowning. On that part what you say regarding brand value suffering is true. If they dont work on their engine shortcomings, their brand will take a beating. Many have reported that the stated 100 bhp of the Honda iDtech, cannot be experienced at all. (Though I cannot confirm it, I have read my posts on this forum regarding the same).

Cost-cutting is already apparent in their cars. Hyundai as a company at least has shown that one can have compelling products under constrained price points too. And lastly whether one has brand value or not, high handedness can never serve for good. Honda needs to re-think on that part as well. Their attitude to customer should in general change for good.

Case in point: Couple of years back, in spite of Jazz sales taking a beating, Honda sales guys were least bothered to work with a prospective buyer to even show him the features of the car (Buyer in question: Me).

[stanjohn123]

Originally Posted by ampere

Cost-cutting is already apparent in their cars. Hyundai as a company at least has shown that one can have compelling products under constrained price points too. And lastly whether one has brand value or not, high handedness can never serve for good.

Hyundai has one major advantage over Honda and that's a weaker currency compared to that of yen. It is due to this reason Honda are forced to do cost cutting in order to stay competitive. Same thing for all Japanese cars.

[sgiitk]

Originally Posted by adimicra

But, when I drove one, my perception changed. The diesel engine is noisy and unrefined. Also, while the drive-ability was very good, it hardly feels like a 100 PS car. I wonder where is all that power. May be the power is generated in the higher rpms and with all the noise, one would not really like it to be revved higher. I would like Honda to come up with a next iteration of the diesel engine with much better refinement.

A lot can be attributed to the All Alloy design as against the iron block of most others.

[adimicra]

Originally Posted by sgiitk

A lot can be attributed to the All Alloy design as against the iron block of most others.

Sir, I understand that the noise and lack of refinement can be due to this but why doesn't it feel all that powerful? It is supposed to be 33% more powerful than the Swift but does it feel so?

One other question - petrol engines have been using Aluminium etc for long time without any issues. Any particular reason why it is different for diesel engines? (Pardon my ignorance)

[anky]

@adimicra I own both the Honda Amaze diesel vx and Dzire vdi . I have never felt the 100 bhp honda claims it to have , the engine is very noisy and if it were not for the comfortable interior space as compared to the dzire I would frankly hate the Amaze . It just makes too much noise .

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by stanjohn123

Hyundai has one major advantage over Honda and that's a weaker currency compared to that of yen. It is due to this reason Honda are forced to do cost cutting in order to stay competitive. Same thing for all Japanese cars.

The new City has 90% localisation, and its not like the parts are imported straight out of Japan. Moreover, the prices are significantly higher than the competition as well. Still they can't afford to provide quality parts?

Even while fully agreeing to the view that parts are more expensive thanks to the Yen, what about panel gaps? The recently launched TATA Zest seems to be doing a better job at keeping the panel gaps tight, compared to the equivalent Honda.

[thesilentone]

One look in the boot of my 2006 City still gives a wow feeling and looks real plush. A peek into the boot of the new City make one go . Honda should be really careful about blatant cost cutting since it erodes its brand value and once brand value is lost, things will never be the same again.

[stanjohn123]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

Even while fully agreeing to the view that parts are more expensive thanks to the Yen, what about panel gaps? The recently launched TATA Zest seems to be doing a better job at keeping the panel gaps tight, compared to the equivalent Honda.

Aren't the panel gaps then due to the fact that these cars are assembled in India ? Maybe if they came straight out of Japan as CBU this would never happen with Japanese cars.

[a4anurag]

Originally Posted by adimicra

Sir, I understand that the noise and lack of refinement can be due to this but why doesn't it feel all that powerful? It is supposed to be 33% more powerful than the Swift but does it feel so?

Diesel clatter is on the higher side, agreed!

The feeling of no power even after you know at the back of your mind that your driving a 100PS car, I'd attribute it to the gearing of the car the engine is mated to.
Gearing is not same in the Amaze, City and Mobilio, hence that difference is what I think.

Anurag.

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by stanjohn123

Aren't the panel gaps then due to the fact that these cars are assembled in India ? Maybe if they came straight out of Japan as CBU this would never happen with Japanese cars.

Exactly. The Indian cars are built to a cheaper standard compared to the Japanese ones, because lesser the tolerances - higher the money they need to pay the vendors. Its not an excuse to make because the others players in the segment are also 'built in India' and offer better quality levels.

There is a thin line between feeling 'VFM' and feeling 'cheap'. Brio and City are just around that line depending on the variants you look at, while Amaze and Mobilio are way below, IMO.

It is exactly this attitude that is going to hurt Honda India in the long run.

[abhibh]

Originally Posted by adimicra

Sir, I understand that the noise and lack of refinement can be due to this but why doesn't it feel all that powerful? It is supposed to be 33% more powerful than the Swift but does it feel so?

Its not always about the feel. Honda City D gearing and and torque is much better compared to the competition. Swift might feel powerful because of sudden turbo kick but doesn't mean its powerful.

Even Verna is 128 ps still it looses out in acceleration compared to Vento and doesn't feel much powerful. But that 128ps of power and added 6th gear is added advantage on the highways. Same for Honda you might not feel the sudden turbo kick but the torque is there. I have driven it within Delhi during peak hour traffic and i never had to shift down to 1st gear. Just release the clutch or a lil tap on the accelerator in 2nd gear and car moves forward. Same wont be the case for Swift or Verna or Vento.

Its noisier i agree and thats where HONDA has to work. Otherwise i don't see anything wrong with the car. The suspension setup is good, handles well and steering feedback is like Vento on highways if not better. Its spacious, loaded with features and overall BQ is good too.

[adimicra]

Originally Posted by abhibh

Its not always about the feel. Honda City D gearing and and torque is much better compared to the competition. Swift might feel powerful because of sudden turbo kick but doesn't mean its powerful.

Even Verna is 128 ps still it looses out in acceleration compared to Vento and doesn't feel much powerful. But that 128ps of power and added 6th gear is added advantage on the highways. Same for Honda you might not feel the sudden turbo kick but the torque is there. I have driven it within Delhi during peak hour traffic and i never had to shift down to 1st gear. Just release the clutch or a lil tap on the accelerator in 2nd gear and car moves forward. Same wont be the case for Swift or Verna or Vento.

Its noisier i agree and thats where HONDA has to work. Otherwise i don't see anything wrong with the car. The suspension setup is good, handles well and steering feedback is like Vento on highways if not better. Its spacious, loaded with features and overall BQ is good too.

When I said fast, I was not talking about turbo kick. In fact, I would prefer something with less of a turbo kick.
The fact is the 1.5 IDTEC produces only 10 Nm more torque than the 1.3 DDIS while the power figures are a lot more. The Vento generates 105 PS which is only 5 PS more than the City but the toque is way way higher - 250 compared to 200. I think therein lies the difference. And even if you check the in-gear acceleration numbers etc. it is very close to Swift. The Vento just smokes the City (though the PS diff is only 5). What I agree with you is the drive-ability and the torque being available at low rpms. By the way, a car moving just by releasing the clutch and not pressing the gas pedal is no great shakes. My friend had a Zen diesel which used to jump off the line as soon as you release the clutch (I think the idling was too high or something).
Honda has done a clever marketing strategy by somehow managing that headline grabbing 100 PS number whereas in reality it does not feel that fast. I think for diesel engines, the torque numbers are more important.