[shankar.balan]

appreciate what has been said about Toyota etc
However, mere bulk of metal is no guarantee for safety.
also, such a large hulk of metal does, in my opinion at least require ABS.
Else there is a possible risk of aquaplaning, skidding etc when braking hard. Suffice it to say that most of the buyers of this beast will most probably be leaden footed, which means a large mass of hurtling metal with possibly inadequate stopping power! of course this is a mere surmise as of now but it certainly seems likely!
but one of the main grouses I ve got is the overall fit and finish quality that we Indian Manufacturers dole out to us poor consumers. Why cant they get that right at least? and then consider charging this "premium" to us poor toads!

Originally Posted by aniketi

Very well said my friend. Good point you have raised here. The examples you giving are very right. Car like corolla should have basic safety features for base model as well as it is from D segment. Buying car like Toyota with 11-12 lacs & no safety features, people are ok with it? Just because its a Toyota or manufacturer from out side India? I have seen people keep complaining a lot about Indian manufacturer's and dont see mistakes done by other so call imported car makers. In other words these car makers like with T badge or H badge keep looting people and people are ok with it.

With so much metal, does Force one really needs Airbags?

[BurningHeart]

It was getting a bit annoying to watch last 8 pages of the forum conversation and I thought it is time to issue a wake up call. I had written earlier in this thread to highlight some points.

Instead of wantedly punching holes (unconvicingly) we must encourage local manufacturing, local science & technology innovations, local talent development actively. But it is unfair expect all of it, in one single product.

I am totally supportive of Indian manufacturers trying to hold on their own and grow this industry. If we do not support such industries, in a couple of generations' time, we will pack off our industries like those of the West and possibly go out with a begging bowl to common wealth.

I am travelling and this morning, The Independent of London carried a full article on what Eric Schmidt spoke about UK not investing into Science & Technology and how it will bring the UK down in the time of next few generations. UK once had the best auto manufacturing & design skills and today where is Rover, JLR, etc have landed up? Just because the country had become so complacent that it stopped innovating - it is a painful process but that's why it is a bit difficult for low IQ chaps to file science patents but India has many high IQ chaps toiling in IT instead of contributing to science and technology development in the nation. Read this, it is good: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...e-2344672.html

India should never become a population of 1 Billion tweeters and it is very heartening to see people like us on the streets for supporting Anna Hazare's cause. So lets get the good for nothing theory out for once and get something good going.

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

appreciate what has been said about Toyota etc
However, mere bulk of metal is no guarantee for safety.
also, such a large hulk of metal does, in my opinion at least require ABS.
Else there is a possible risk of aquaplaning, skidding etc when braking hard. Suffice it to say that most of the buyers of this beast will most probably be leaden footed, which means a large mass of hurtling metal with possibly inadequate stopping power! of course this is a mere surmise as of now but it certainly seems likely!
but one of the main grouses I ve got is the overall fit and finish quality that we Indian Manufacturers dole out to us poor consumers. Why cant they get that right at least? and then consider charging this "premium" to us poor toads!

Your personal opinion with a lots of assumptions on how others drive and they will only drive badly, all the time. Very theoretical rhetoric. This issue you're trying to raise has nothing to do with the potential of this vehicle in this country and if you go by other Force products with a Merc heart, this will do well too. And it does not mean that we need to lower our standards or set them too low. Compare Force One with a Pajero or Endy from an average Indian customer who had 15L to spend 5 years back versus now. I think the picture will become quite clear immediately.

About safety issues you're highlighting here is what I think is factual. What about Innova GX, Safari LX & EX, Tata Sumo, Chevy Tavera, Scorpio below SLE etc.? Force is planning to bring the other options and they're transparent about it. So if you are not the mass market customer who values safety over the other features provides, then it means you should wait and bicker while waiting. It is purchase decision/consumer behaviour aspect that customers and marketers understand anyways to a large degree. I honestly don't see point in deliberately punching holes, for the sake of it.

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

certainly it doesnt make sense. but that doesnt justify the launch of the Force one without any safety stuff, given the price.
and anyway, this is 2011 and the consumers have evolved considerably in terms of both their knowledge and expectations.

Doesn't make sense? Even at 10L? So who bought Aria at 20 L OTR in BLR? It had TC, ABS, 4x4 and 45 other features. And this vehicle at <15 L has 75 features of all kinds.

Originally Posted by Aroy

If I am not wrong, the original Chinese vehicle was based on the old Ford Explorer. That is why it looks like one.

I am not sure if that is true. Other than the name, the chassis dimensions and wheelbase are different from all generations of Ford Explorer.

Sharing Wheel base comparison below for instance,

Force One Wheel Base: 3025 mm

Ford Explorer
Gen 1: 2842 mm
Gen 2: 2831 mm
Gen 3 & 4: 2890 mm
Gen 5: 2,860 mm

Can you share your source please?

Originally Posted by WhiteKnight

Endy is a massive wastage of real estate. It can transport 4 people in some questionable level of comfort. Now, any automobile which costs 40% less would do a better job than that.

+1 to that

Originally Posted by eq24

I am a bit apprehensive about the safety features in this vehicle, no airbags, no ABS, surely those should be standard in any car manufactured today. I think the Indian government should step in and make those features a must have, like most European countries do. I am sure there wont be a single person who wouldnt justify paying extra for such life saving neccessaties.

As it turns out that about 80% of the country's MUV/SUV buyers are okay without them. Just look at the Bolero, Sumo, Scorpio, Innova, Safari buyers who spend similar monies.

Originally Posted by eq24

Also could someone tell me what other alternatives in this range are coming out? Much appreciated.

March 2010 is when 4x4 and ABS'ed versions are out apparently. Source: http://www.motorbeam.com/cars/force-...-suv-in-india/


BH.

[anandpadhye]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

However, mere bulk of metal is no guarantee for safety.
also, such a large hulk of metal does, in my opinion at least require ABS.
Else there is a possible risk of aquaplaning, skidding etc when braking hard.

but one of the main grouses I ve got is the overall fit and finish quality that we Indian Manufacturers dole out to us poor consumers. Why cant they get that right at least? and then consider charging this "premium" to us poor toads!

Well, at least we have one more Indian company offering an SUV.
I fully support your expectations from an SUV/MUV but just look at what Mahindra are selling under the name "Bolero" and ironically, it's the best selling UV - everyone would like to buy a vehicle with good fit and finish, ABS, Airbags, etc but the problem is vitamin M. Even Scorpio and Safaris have versions without ABS/Airbags and those sell more than the safer varients.

Let us allow Force motors to at least bring this one to the market, shall we?

[shankar.balan]

you know I agree that I m quite clearly a grumbler. thanks for pointing it out but its not going to change me and my rantings.

Now while I endorse your view about encouraging R&D and local manufacturers etc, this is what I ve been doing so far - voting with my wallet for the best product available which meets my requirements.
All Im saying here is that safety it seems, comes at a premium, which it should not. It should be standard.

And one more thing - I am still of the mindset that I cant pay 18-20 lacs for an Indian made vehicle with poor quality of fit, finish and electronics which I dont completely trust. Hence the grumbling!

I dont like the Aria or the Force One and the M&M W201 proto which I saw, given the price indications. They arent worth it at those prices. This is only my opinion and in this case Im voting against them with my wallet.
The same way that I am choosing to vote against the 15.3 lac Safari or Scorpio top end because of their wallowy nature and generally poor plastics, fit and finish overall, given the price.

I am planning to vote either Korean or European and I think, in all fairness to everyone, that I am entitled to do what I want to, with my money. Also I do believe Im entitled to grumble and rant if I want to on this Forum.
Do correct me if I am mistaken!
cheers

Originally Posted by BurningHeart

About safety issues you're highlighting here is what I think is factual. What about Innova GX, Safari LX & EX, Tata Sumo, Chevy Tavera, Scorpio below SLE etc.? Force is planning to bring the other options and they're transparent about it. So if you are not the mass market customer who values safety over the other features provides, then it means you should wait and bicker while waiting. It is purchase decision/consumer behaviour aspect that customers and marketers understand anyways to a large degree. I honestly don't see point in deliberately punching holes, for the sake of it.
As it turns out that about 80% of the country's MUV/SUV buyers are okay without them. Just look at the Bolero, Sumo, Scorpio, Innova, Safari buyers who spend similar monies.


March 2010 is when 4x4 and ABS'ed versions are out apparently. Source: Force Motors Launches One SUV In India | MotorBeam - Indian Car Bike News & Reviews


BH.

yes sure anand. but Im as i said voting with my wallet and choosing not to buy at least the first ones because I dont want to be a guinea pig for Force or anyone else. Please let them bring anything to market. Yes the consumer needs more choices. Also, me as a consumer, I also need something to buy and am getting nothing as of now. Hence my grumbling and ranting. what to do?
So, like you, I might also vote Korean or perhaps if I feel like I may vote European.
God knows - I will wait another 2-3 months atleast and then decide!!
But I like to grumble about these aspects and this forum offers a perfect opportunity to air these sentiments in the hope that the manufacturers will hear me sometime! after all I ve been grumbling at the Mahindra chaps for some 7 years now despite having good relationships with them at various levels! they say one's best friend is also one's severest critic. I ve taken that stance!
cheers.

Originally Posted by anandpadhye

Well, at least we have one more Indian company offering an SUV.
I fully support your expectations from an SUV/MUV but just look at what Mahindra are selling under the name "Bolero" and ironically, it's the best selling UV - everyone would like to buy a vehicle with good fit and finish, ABS, Airbags, etc but the problem is vitamin M. Even Scorpio and Safaris have versions without ABS/Airbags and those sell more than the safer varients.

Let us allow Force motors to at least bring this one to the market, shall we?

[BurningHeart]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

you know I agree that I m quite clearly a grumbler. thanks for pointing it out but its not going to change me and my rantings.

Hence the grumbling!

Also I do believe Im entitled to grumble and rant if I want to on this Forum.
Do correct me if I am mistaken!
cheers

Don't know if you're mistaken but correcting a 'Distinguished - BHP ian' is not my cup of tea. No offense. Have a v.good weekend.

BH.

[neel385]

Cynics that we are, it is but natural that we tend to see the bad side of almost everything. So will side with BH on this one.
The Force one seems top be decent effort by an indigenous company to bring a VFM product into the market. The meaning of VFM can vary for different people and yes so can the meaning of safety. While ABS is a big plus, I'm not a big fan of Airbags as they are after all SRS! So then, given the fact that the majority of SUVs available to the customer till date in the <11L category don't have ABS/Airbags, the Force One should be a good draw to all new purchasers in the segment given it's engine and power train and the seemingly decent build quality. A TBHP review will surely help in giving a better picture on this. When is it coming anyway?

[shankar.balan]

not a correction BH. just a point of view which differs from mine.
like I said, Im a grumbler.
cant help it because the frustration comes from not getting anything in the market which is perfectly tuned to my particular personal need state.
hence the rantings!
cheers

Originally Posted by BurningHeart

Don't know if you're mistaken but correcting a 'Distinguished - BHP ian' is not my cup of tea. No offense. Have a v.good weekend.

BH.

[ACM]

Originally Posted by Durango Dude

What I'm hinting at is that if you compare it with a Safari and Scorpio it may look expensive but the vehicle is say 400 mm longer than the Scorpio and thats an awful lot of sheet metal,more like an Endy in size how it stacks up against an Endy remains to be seen. But cost wise it is some 40% cheaper than the Endy.

Yep size does matter and yes this is a lot bigger than the Scorpio but vs the safari it is a close match. the size difference in Safari and Scorpio did not stop us from placing them in the same segment as they were both from Indian manufacturers and priced within 1L from each other, it would be no different for the Force 1.

That said I would have been a potential candidate for the Force 1 if I didn't already have what I wanted. I loved it's looks overall as a package a lot more than the Scorpio, and would wait for the safari merlin to come out to take a stand vs the Safari.

[Saptarshi B]

In a way its good to be a grumbler as you would tend to demand more (and hopefully get it too). All that you need to be alongwith that is patient. Your safety features issues will be addressed soon.

Meanwhile there are other non grumblers who give more importance to the price point and the other available features in a vehicle. This product is targetted at them and the manufacturers would obviously know that. So for that specific target audience I believe this is a good product.

[Oreen]

I liked the blue one with the rack on top. I have never driven vehicles with ABS or airbags, so I won't even miss such safety features in this vehicle. Just the Apollo Hawkz have to be replaced with better rubber ... and you have a really classy vehicle that looks like the Endeavour but has more space. What we have to wait and watch is whether Force, who know how to deal with commercial vehicle buyers, will be able to up the ante and learn how to deal with regular buyers. The service, availability of spares, service outlets, on-road breakdown assistance, etc. Those are more crucial for people who are mostly on the road. First gripe would be, only Khivraj motors on Hosur road for Bangalore buyers. Compare with Tata and Mahindra and the accessibility of their showrooms, behavior of their sales folk, etc....you may change your mind from Force to one of these.

But this looks really nice like a big American, Hollywood-ishtyle SUV.

[VeluM]

Force is going to introduce the ABSed version of the vehicle in a year. I don't really see what the entire year is going to achieve, since they have spent a bit of time already in the design/development and testing of the vehicle. Should have done it already.

I agree that if Tata can offer ABS with a 5.5L Vista, then it should be available across the range in the Safari. I Really don't see a difference in cost of more than 30k. Increased volumes will also bring the input costs down for Tata - or any manufacturer, for that matter.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by VeluM

Force is going to introduce the ABSed version of the vehicle in a year. I don't really see what the entire year is going to achieve, since they have spent a bit of time already in the design/development and testing of the vehicle. Should have done it already.

I agree that if Tata can offer ABS with a 5.5L Vista, then it should be available across the range in the Safari. I Really don't see a difference in cost of more than 30k. Increased volumes will also bring the input costs down for Tata - or any manufacturer, for that matter.

After comparing the ABS/Non ABs and AirBAg/Non AirBag versions of some models in Indian market I find that
. 2 Airbag = 20K
. ABS ~ 40K

So we can expect the Air Bag + ABS to add around 50-60K to the cost. Any thing more and they would be taking advantage of the ignorance of the buyer.

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by Aroy

After comparing the ABS/Non ABs and AirBAg/Non AirBag versions of some models in Indian market I find that
. 2 Airbag = 20K
. ABS ~ 40K

So we can expect the Air Bag + ABS to add around 50-60K to the cost. Any thing more and they would be taking advantage of the ignorance of the buyer.

40K for ABS?? I see that ABS cost is around 20K for Maruti vehicles. And together with Airbags, around 40-50K.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by swiftnfurious

40K for ABS?? I see that ABS cost is around 20K for Maruti vehicles. And together with Airbags, around 40-50K.

Some manufacturers have 3 channel ABS others 4 channels. The latter is more expensive.

Anyway what I wanted to convey is that the additional cost is not all that great, as to dispense with these safety devices. If as you say ABS is 20K and Airbags another 20K, adding them to a 7-8L vehicle like the low end Bolero/Sumo/Scorpio/Safari would be welcome. But these manufacturers want to milk us by offering these, clubed with useless gizmos and charge 1-2L more!

Until and unless ABS and Airbags become cumpolsary, like the Seat Belt, we are at the mercy of the vehicle manufacturers, who like to maximise (cream the public?) the profit at each and every stage.

[swiftnfurious]

Originally Posted by Aroy

Some manufacturers have 3 channel ABS others 4 channels. The latter is more expensive.

Anyway what I wanted to convey is that the additional cost is not all that great, as to dispense with these safety devices. If as you say ABS is 20K and Airbags another 20K, adding them to a 7-8L vehicle like the low end Bolero/Sumo/Scorpio/Safari would be welcome. But these manufacturers want to milk us by offering these, clubed with useless gizmos and charge 1-2L more!

+1. ABS & Airbags dont cost much on a 10L+ car. So ideally they should have provided that. Again as you said, we need laws which mandate that safety options should be there in every car sold.