[vina]

Originally Posted by Nash24

...
So people, if you need a diesel car for whatever be the reason, FE or better performance or better torque, next 6 months is the time to buy one, else it is a risk as road tax could be increased from 5 to 9% more for private diesel cars, noways govt can increase diesel prices anymore inflation will take a big hit.

I think central taxes will be increased (like excise) rather than the road tax.

that way center retains control over the policy, and can offset the diesel subsidy to some extent.

[RS_DEL]

Originally Posted by vina

I think central taxes will be increased (like excise) rather than the road tax.

that way center retains control over the policy, and can offset the diesel subsidy to some extent.

Very true. The central government will take the lead on this.

However when will they do it? Right now I am pretty sure, deals are being made between the lobbyists and the ones who make the decisions. Let us see if the auto companies are willing to pay the price that will be demanded of them. If they do not ante up, be prepared for taxes, if they do - the party will go on for some time, economics and common sense be damned!

[amitoj]

Originally Posted by oxyzen

Dont tell me that with 30K you can bump up your power and torque figures by 30% in a petrol. And even if you could it would be a lot of hassle & warranty getting void.

BTW have you dynoed your cars to guage actual improvement?
Or may be the flat out or roll on times?

I agree, Petes box do take a toll on the engines, provided they are abused continuously. Decent driving with sporadic pedal to metal acceleration would not have any serious issues.
And is it not an advantage to remove the box and not mention a word about it when it comes to selling. It may sound selfish, but thats the way everyone is.


But lets talk about practicallity. Can you keep the engine on the boil (5000-6500RPM) for 1 complete hour? I guess not. This is where diesels come it. Diesels are easier to drive fast. You just need to be out of the lag zone. Instant torque. Anyway enough has been said. Not going to fight this argument further.

Etios has one of the best engines in the entry level petrol sedans. It is supposed to give swift a run for its money. But if you are keen on comparing, compare it with the same spec.ed engine. The Verna 1.5 CRDI is a whole lot faster.

Lets be practical dude. 30% increase in power is not desirable either unless you change almost entire internals of the car. Thats why people dont mention about their pete boxes when it comes to resale.

As for practicality, tell me whats more practical? A car that can go from 30 to 100 kmph without changing gears or one that needs multiple gear shifts in that range? If you think 5000-6000 rpm is only range where a petrol can be fun then you are mistaken.

And how is verna and etios similarly spec'ed?? As far as i know, Etios does not have a turbo.
You want a fair comparison for Verna then compare it with Linea TJet.

'nuff said.

[misquitas]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

Yes, diesel rules. But the only problem is diesel car owners are a little careless about the frequency and length of their trips. I have a Lancer D which is so frugal that I always felt I am running it for free. That is where my carelessness comes in. I make 5 trips for 5 tasks. Keep the engine ( for aircon ) running for long durations while waiting at railway station/airport/shopping malls. Drive out of town more often even when it is not exactly warranted. On the other hand, a friend who has Alto plans his trips. Avoids traffic snarl-ups, clubs 3/4 tasks, uses scooter for 1/2 km ride, and borrows my car for out-of-town trips ( what are friends for,huh? ). Now the net result is I run up a bigger fuel bill than he does.

Brilliant observation and I have been advocating similar views. Given the present trends...in a petrol car, NEED tends to set in. In a diesel car, GREED tends to set in.

[vina]

Originally Posted by misquitas

Brilliant observation and I have been advocating similar views. Given the present trends...in a petrol car, NEED tends to set in. In a diesel car, GREED tends to set in.

well sir, while petrol is definitely expensive, diesel is not exactly cheap.

Also taking the vehicle out requires you to pay up for parking from time to time and for repairs (as somebody will invariably give you scratches) - costs add up.

I don't think greed sets in, however I fully agree it is easier to decide to use a diesel vehicle than a petrol vehicle

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by oxyzen

Swift- may be the petrol, as both the engines are at par. But no way I am going to settle for Figo/I20 Petrol.

Well, you just happen to be among the 0.01% diesel buyers who value performance. The remaining 99.99% don't give a damn about anything other than running-costs (aka cheap diesel).

To give another example, notice how manufacturers skimp on safety features on diesels and still people lap it up ? When these customers value their own life lesser than cheap fuel, do you think there is any place for performance or FTD there ?

BTW, I agree with the wastage seen among diesel users. In our office parking, almost all cars that are idling with a/c on would be diesel. Anything that comes cheap is not valued. Atleast for this reason, the Govt. should hike diesel prices (or hike excise/sales/road tax for diesel cars). Atleast we will have petro-products for some more years to come, instead of being frivolously burnt away.

[vina]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Well, you just happen to be among the 0.01% diesel buyers who value performance. The remaining 99.99% don't give a damn about anything other than running-costs (aka cheap diesel).

That is probably true (though I don't think it is 99.99%, but well over 90, perhaps 95% would consider performance merely as one of the minor criteria) - but to be fair to him, a similar fraction of petrol car buyers probably have similar feelings about "performance. For them also it is a cost-benefit analysis and usually for them petrol wins.


The guys who give "performance" (i.e. your definition of performance - my definition of performance includes FE) the major consideration over all else are probably 0.01% - whether they buy petrol or diesel.

As I wrote in a previous post - their numbers are irrelevant to the question of "Is this the beginning of the end of the petrol car?" as long as we are talking about mass market.


In exotics petrols will not die any time soon (i.e. barring a tech breakthrough)

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

To give another example, notice how manufacturers skimp on safety features on diesels and still people lap it up ? When these customers value their own life lesser than cheap fuel, do you think there is any place for performance or FTD there ?

This question would be more relevant if all petrol buyers were buying the safety features.

Also merely because somebody decided not to spend money on ABS and Airbags doesn't mean he doesn't value his life. There are other ways - many people never drive faster than 80 (many can not drive fasterthan 60 given the state of our roads outside 4-5 large cities) and at these speeds the extra safety features are close to useless if you take precautions like wearing seatbelts. So why would somebody pay more?

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

BTW, I agree with the wastage seen among diesel users. In our office parking, almost all cars that are idling with a/c on would be diesel. Anything that comes cheap is not valued. Atleast for this reason, the Govt. should hike diesel prices (or hike excise/sales/road tax for diesel cars). Atleast we will have petro-products for some more years to come, instead of being frivolously burnt away.

Let me guess - these jokers will also be the people who leave lights on in conference rooms, print stuff and then never even read it, take food from cafeteria and dump large uneaten portions ... My 10th grade English teacher once said - fools are everywhere.



The govt. will have to rise diesel prices some time soon. When will it happen? - when either the party in power in center has no elections to worry about for next 3yrs OR when they are forced to do so by external factors (like IMF/WB). None of these is going to happen any time soon - ergo any diesel price increase can only be very gradual (may not even keep pace with international crude prices)

[kirantp]

Would like to make a point here though it may sound wierd but it is a fact that Alcohol costs lesser than Petrol and due to this, more and more people are opting for Diesel vehicles so that they can combine their drive with Alcohol thereby enhancing the number of "Drunk and Drive" accidents and deaths. Really wonder where its gonna head to.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by vina

As I wrote in a previous post - their numbers are irrelevant to the question of "Is this the beginning of the end of the petrol car?" as long as we are talking about mass market.

All these are relevant to the thread - petrol-cars will end when no one buys them. And what could be more relevant to this than the breakup of people buying diesel vs petrol ?

Originally Posted by vina

This question would be more relevant if all petrol buyers were buying the safety features. Also merely because somebody decided not to spend money on ABS and Airbags doesn't mean he doesn't value his life. There are other ways - many people never drive faster than 80 (many can not drive fasterthan 60 given the state of our roads outside 4-5 large cities) and at these speeds the extra safety features are close to useless if you take precautions like wearing seatbelts. So why would somebody pay more?

Hope you would agree that atleast petrol-car buyers have an option - so no one to blame for not opting for it. And your comments about ABS/airbags not being required if one drives slowly, wears seatbelt etc is not based on facts/reality. You could drive all you want at 20kmph, but what if an SUV rams into your front at 70kmph ? And ABS is useful at low speeds too. Did you by any chance have to opt for a Figo without these features ?

Originally Posted by vina

Let me guess - these jokers will also be the people who leave lights on in conference rooms, print stuff and then never even read it, take food from cafeteria and dump large uneaten portions ... My 10th grade English teacher once said - fools are everywhere.

Avoiding wastage of any resource is a good thing and when it comes to saving electricity/water/fuel/paper/cooking-gas etc, I could write a thesis from experience, but since we are on the topic of fuel, an "average" person would not worry about burning cheap diesel as compared to costlier petrol.

BTW, the 99.99% might be an exaggeration - just to get the point across, not meant literally.

@kirantp, interesting theory, but "that" is not cheaper than petrol (litre to litre).

[vina]

Well sir, I think we are on the same page here save for some misunderstanding perhaps.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

All these are relevant to the thread - petrol-cars will end when no one buys them. And what could be more relevant to this than the breakup of people buying diesel vs petrol ?

I meant that if a very small fraction of petrol (or diesel) buyers are making their decision in a large part based on performance - then these guys are irrelevant to the extent that car companies will not be making their R&D and product development decisions based on these guys. Hence they are irrelevant to the thread (I don't think the guy who started it literally meant an end of petrol cars in all applications - race cars will probably be petrols for very very long time. I think he intended it to mean and end of petrol cars in the mass market)

Once you take them out, almost everybody else is doing cost/benefit analysis - those guys are relevant, but for them the question of performance (i.e. speed, etc.) is merely one of the parameters which is then trumped by a lot of other parameters - which all inevitably link to vitamin M.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Hope you would agree that atleast petrol-car buyers have an option - so no one to blame for not opting for it. And your comments about ABS/airbags not being required if one drives slowly, wears seatbelt etc is not based on facts/reality. You could drive all you want at 20kmph, but what if an SUV rams into your front at 70kmph ? And ABS is useful at low speeds too. Did you by any chance have to opt for a Figo without these features ?

Obviously man - one of the reasons I bought a Figo and not a Ritz was that same price gave me airbags too.

ABS by the way doesn't even kick in at low speeds (threshold is different on different cars, between 20 and 30kmph) - and I wasn't talking about ABS. Also most people who do not drive faster than 70-80 on highways do not drive faster than 40-50 in situations where ABS will ever be needed (low braking distance available and poor surface grip available)

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Avoiding wastage of any resource is a good thing and when it comes to saving electricity/water/fuel/paper/cooking-gas etc, I could write a thesis from experience, but since we are on the topic of fuel, an "average" person would not worry about burning cheap diesel as compared to costlier petrol.

Every one of the diesel owners (especially, who bought their cars 2yrs or more ago) I know is a miser, including the guy I see in the mirror . And that shows in the daily work of most of them - they are conservators too.

I think what you mean is that an "average person" will not worry as much about burning diesel as he would about burning petrol, I mean keep in mind that while diesel is cheaper than petrol, at Rs.45/ltr it isn't exactly cheap - petrol car owners weren't exactly running their ACs unnecessarily when petrol cost that much.

[kirantp]

Originally Posted by RavenAvi

An interesting article I came across in Dance With Shadows.

Attachment 579254

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Attachment 579260


SOURCE (and Thanks to) - Petrol premium, mid-size and SUV car sales in India till June 2011 see big drop | DWS Auto India

Referring to the chart, is there any specific reason for the continued downtrend of SX4? I wonder where its gonna hit in the coming times. It definitely took off on a high note but unfortunately, it is almost heading to bite the dust (rather harsh)

[fast&furious]

Isn't it possible to raise the diesel price for cars alone?I think that is a good idea though I'm not thinking about its practicality.It's difficult but is it impossible?

[RS_DEL]

Originally Posted by fast&furious

Isn't it possible to raise the diesel price for cars alone?I think that is a good idea though I'm not thinking about its practicality.It's difficult but is it impossible?

Not implementable in the Indian context.

All of us know how honest the vast majority of the government functionaries are. The cure is worse than the malady.

[vina]

Originally Posted by fast&furious

Isn't it possible to raise the diesel price for cars alone?I think that is a good idea though I'm not thinking about its practicality.It's difficult but is it impossible?

Because beyond creating a black market and huge corruoption it will not help in any other way.

If you think it is possible look at what happens to kerosene in the country.

[supremeBaleno]

^^^ Indeed. It will open up a Rsxxxxxx lakhs diesel scam.

Raising price of diesel will increase inflation.
Dual pricing of diesel would lead to corruption.

Options would be to make road-tax annual for diesel cars and make it so high so as to be a deterrent. Have this applicable for all the diesels currently on the road too. Also throw in an excise-duty hike for diesel cars to make initial cost high. And have these uniform across the country - else you will see all diesel cars sporting Pondy/Chandigarh plates.