[ani_meher]

This is complete OT, but couldn't help it at sleepy 12.30a.m.

1. A handful of Toyota supporters are hard core fanboys who refer people supporting their judgement 'better' and and opposing people as 'misguided' and their examples 'crazy'.

2. Is the ownership a required criteria for judging a car? Debate is still on! The result could decide the fate of many car magazines who own none of the cars they review.

3. On page 23, the seemingly useless word 'gasket' which I mainly heard in terms of a food cooker is repeated 25 times!
EDIT counting the above, it's 26!

That ends my summary. People are requested to resume fight while the rest of us fill up our pop corn bowl.

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by ani_meher

2. Is the ownership a required criteria for judging a car? Debate is still on! The result could decide the fate of many car magazines who own none of the cars they review.

I'm sorry but I'd like to correct you there.

Many automobile magazines are allowed to drive and use some cars for a long period of time These are short-term ownership reviews, where the car-maker lends a car to the magazine for a period of 4-6 months for a long term review of the car.

Many magazines get different cars, and if you read all the short-term ownership reviews, you'l see that they do get the experience of owning it, and are hence able to give us close-to-accurate reviews.

The Liva is a good car. No, it's a great car. But Toyota has taken the cost-cutting measures a tad to far, I'd say. They could have fine-tuned the product and made it more appealing and feel less built-to-cost than what it does now. I mean, if cheaper cars can have rubber beading around the edges of the doors, I'm sure The Etios and Liva could have too.

The core of the product is strong. It has a strong engine, a great gearbox, a brilliant steering, good handling and dynamics. So the car, internally, is spot-on. But they seemed to have forgotten the finish the product.

Hope Toyota rectifies this soon.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

The core of the product is strong. It has a strong engine, a great gearbox, a brilliant steering, good handling and dynamics. So the car, internally, is spot-on. But they seemed to have forgotten the finish the product.

Hope Toyota rectifies this soon.

Spot on. Had toyota concentrated a bit more on the aesthetics, and final finish, this car would have killed the competition. Because, fundamentally the car is very strong. I heard rumors from the staff in toyota service that they are working on this part as well. Maybe, toyota will boost up the interiors by the time engine manufacturing starts from India.

[A350XWB]

Originally Posted by RadiantKarma

Will appreciate your sharing an update - keen to know Toyota's response to the quality issues.

Sorry for the delay, was busy with my work. The car has been through first service. The rattling was attributed to something loose inside the dash and they fixed it. The ill-fitting hood opener has been replaced and as of now, it is working fine. These are the feedback I've got from my co-brother over phone. Will check out the car when I visit them in December. Toyota was prompt in attending to the niggles.
As I had written earlier, after being with the car for sometime, I started liking it. It's no way a perfect car, but it makes sense in the segment. It's got space and a good powertrain, good ride and neutral handling. Yes, it has niggles, but in my opinion, those are not deal-breakers. If Toyota is able to replace those cheap bits, then the value of this car can go up a notch. (As I had mentioned in my posts, I evaluated the car, keeping aside the brand. If you take the brand first and evaluate the car, thinking that you will have Corolla quality, then you will be in for a disappointment) In Kerala, the price is also not high unlike in Bangalore, where the humongous taxes makes everything feel overpriced

The car I mentioned has a tray in the boot which covers the entire boot floor and has raised edges (maybe 2" tall and is a snug fit). I would recommend it to Etios owners as it helps to keep the boot floor clean. It can be taken out as such and any debris left by the luggage can be dusted out easily.

(As a side note, my co-brother's cousin is the Senior Sales Manager at the dealership, but I think they would have attended to the niggles even if he had no connection there. I had wrongly mentioned the model as G and it actually is a V)

[ani_meher]

Originally Posted by suhaas307

The Liva is a good car. No, it's a great car.

Agreed to rest of the points. But that will render the 'first impressions' here on forum pretty useless, don't you think? I think first impression creates lasting impression, and even though the car 'grows on you' as stated hard by many ugly-car owners first impression is very important too. But I got your point.

As per the above statement, I beg to know how it is a great car. Until I saw the pricing, I too felt it was an okay car catering to a certain segment. But on seeing the prices, I couldn't help but to wonder in disbelief! They are right in the ball park of Jazz (at least the safe versions, barring J & G)

On road prices in Pune:

Toyota Etios Liva G 523,985
Toyota Etios Liva G Plus 578,121
Toyota Etios Liva V 636,427
Toyota Etios Liva VX 693,046

Honda Jazz Basic 627,511
Honda Jazz Select Edition 655,630
Honda Jazz X 691,452

(these are excluding the discounts if any)

I fail to see how Jazz doesn't kick the rear of Liva in comparable versions. Now that due to sheer bad luck Honda is suffering because of the flood, but otherwise how exactly Liva a good car? Even our own official review states very clearly AFAIK, that while Etios engine is a gem of its class, Liva's one is not so.

I wanted to like this car and to buy it. So even if I don't own it, I am a 'would be' owner that was turned off by the irrational cost cutting and pricing. Am I qualified to comment?

Disclaimer: Rant limited to Petrol versions only

[suhaas307]

Originally Posted by amalji

Spot on. Had toyota concentrated a bit more on the aesthetics, and final finish, this car would have killed the competition. Because, fundamentally the car is very strong. I heard rumors from the staff in toyota service that they are working on this part as well. Maybe, toyota will boost up the interiors by the time engine manufacturing starts from India.

Originally Posted by ani_meher

Agreed to rest of the points. But that...

...I wanted to like this car and to buy it. So even if I don't own it, I am a 'would be' owner that was turned off by the irrational cost cutting and pricing. Am I qualified to comment?

Disclaimer: Rant limited to Petrol versions only

Let me explain.

You see, Honda has always created a good impression for themselves over the years, but always associated themselves as a premium player in the market. The ONLY other premium car maker back in the late '90s was Mercedes.

The City had to deal with competition like the Opel Astra (solid car with superb dynamics, but let down by expensive spares and a winding-up service-network) and the Mitsubishi Lancer (heavily under-powered and not fuel efficient either) so it wasn't hard for the City to be king.

Now you've mentioned very clearly, that first impressions are lasting impressions. That's what many people feel about the Jazz. Honda killed the product by launching it at an extremely unrealistic price in the beginning. I mean, I found it value for money, because it gave us whatever a sedan offered, without the cumbersome boot sticking out and a much better mileage! So we were happy anyway.

Now Honda has created a lasting impression, and it's going to be hard to shake that off. Despite the discounts, the Jazz still seems to be doing miserably. There are a few reasons for that:

1) The first impression is generally, the impression that sticks.

2) Natural Calamities conspiring against Honda :P

3) Petrol Prices.

I believe, Honda would have been able to make a handsome profit if they had priced the Jazz competitively, right from the start. Because at this juncture, petrol cars rarely sell well, and people would rather buy diesels these days. So even if you price a petrol car well, the chances of it doing well are bleak.

Of course, Honda is no Maruti and the Alto still sells like hot-cakes. But that's becuase it costs 2-4 lakhs. It better do well!

Getting back to the Liva.

When you compare the Liva petrol to the Jazz, you realize that the Honda is so much more of a quality product. Both cars come with great engines, good steering and good dynamics (handling and braking) and the Liva has the slight edge, if I may say so. But in terms of quality, the Jazz belts the Liva right out of the park. The material used in the Jazz is superb, and is of international standards, without a doubt.

The Liva feels cheap on the inside, IMO.

But what does it for the Liva is that Toyota badge. Even though Honda is known for fantastic reliability and great after-sales-service, Toyotas are the beginning and the end of reliability.

And if you look at the sales of the Liva petrol, I'd say it isn't much different from the Jazz's sales charts. However, it's the diesel that's taking the Liva places.

Honda should learn a thing or two from it's Japanese rival.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by RadiantKarma

@supremeBaleno, I agree with you that ridicule has no place in fact-finding. At the same time, one seeks to confirm the intent of Munish's reporting and to guage the real extent of all the problems mentioned by him, because the approach is so apparently biased. And it's is not limited to exaggerations.

It is not just about him. Let us for a moment assume that he has something against Toyota. But what about the other guys who on this thread itself have problems with the Etios like water-seepage, FE, rattling etc which are quoted below ? Are they also on a mission to defame Toyota ?

Originally Posted by Chalu

One of my colleague has the water leaking problem in his 2 months old Etios. One day i was with him in the car and it was raining badly in Bangalore (5 days back) water started to leak in from drivers side door at the top left end i.e the side where hinges are fixed and the door has a slight curve.

Originally Posted by DRC

Today, my wife's colleague brought a new Etios Liva to office (delivered on Friday). She was surprised to see gunny bags and old rags kept handy in the passenger seat to deal with the leakage. Poor guy still thinks his case is one off.

Originally Posted by Upgrade

I own an Etios. Fuel efficiency is the major problem reported by many users in the Etios facebook page. I personally have poor FE and rattling problems.

This is apart from the guy in the 1st post on this thread who mentioned water-seepage and low FE in the advertisement. In the late nineties, I used to see a Cielo car in Chennai owned by a top IT manager, which had on its rear-windshield a similar posting about the issues he faced with the car. I doubt someone would take the trouble to do this unless he was really fed up.

And then the case of the rat in the car below. Could not have possibly got in via the gap in the doors, but still a concern - we see rats in engine-bay, but in the car is rare.

Originally Posted by andromeda

Yesterday I opened the boot for cleaning and found a surprise visitor in there - a small Mr. Jerry !!! Now this was definitely not funny. I never leave the car/boot doors open and park the car in the open. This pretty much means that Mr. Jerry must have got in through the under-body and into the cabin

Originally Posted by amalji

We cannot fault @supremebaleno for being misguided.

I believe I have enough experience with cars in terms of years/kms to know my cars and not be misguided by anyone.

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Well we have to agree that this is a area which has been overlooked by Toyota and they should have given the gaskets on the doors ...........So I believe we can rest the case and consider the "mystery of the missing gaskets" solved!

Classic closure for the issues on hand. Start off by saying that it is an issue and end by saying the mystery is solved. Everyone is happy and goes home.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

It is not just about him. Let us for a moment assume that he has something against Toyota. But what about the other guys who on this thread itself have problems with the Etios like water-seepage, FE, rattling etc which are quoted below ? Are they also on a mission to defame Toyota ?

1) I've interacted with many owners in the Etios facebook community regarding water seepage. The only reason why it happened was because while fitting the after market speakers, people who remove the rubber beadings didn't fit them back properly. I verified this before buying this car.

2) Rattling - I've driven the car for 4000 odd kms in one month through all kinds of terrain possible for a sedan. There is absolutely no rattles. Now, that doesn't mean that all cars are like this. But, that happens to almost all cars and can be easily corrected. For the record, all Maruti cars rattle ( except maybe the Baleno ).

3) FE is still a concern for the Petrol owners. No one is objecting to that. But, many have reported that they are starting to get good mileage post 3000 kms ( the engine tuning seems to change in the ecu post 3000 )

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

I believe I have enough experience with cars in terms of years/kms to know my cars and not be misguided by anyone.

I can confidently say that I've experience with cars as well. And in the case of Etios, I surely have more experience than you. So, while I respect your experience with cars, and your loyalty to Maruti, I do not think, you have the right experience to judge Etios.

I see that your profile id contains "Baleno". I'm great admirer of Maruti's Baleno and still feel that it's the best car Maruti has ever designed. When I had to switch from Maruti, the first question that came to my mind was - "Why don't Maruti have a car like Baleno now?"

In Etios Petrol, I found the driving characteristics in terms of power delivery very similar to the Baleno and that's what attracted me to this vehicle at first. Then once, I started checking the other factors like space, comfort, braking, safety, the Etios was ticking all the right boxes. Unfortunately, the petrol pricing was getting too high and then I had to wait for the Diesel release. I'm extremely happy with the purchasing decision and expect to keep it for atleast a decade God willing.

[supremeBaleno]

^^^
Rattles are not easy to correct. Heck at times it is tough to even identify where it comes from. Ask anyone with rattles and you would know. And this is not something that happens to all cars like you casually said or all Marutis either.

I seriously dont think you have enough info about me to say whether I have the experience to judge Etios or not. And moreover for someone to point out faults in their car, they really need not pass your vetting about whether they have the right experience to judge Etios. And regarding the loyalty part, it is your blind obesiance to Toyota that stands out on this thread.

Originally Posted by amalji

I see that your profile id contains "Baleno". I'm great admirer of Maruti's Baleno and still feel that it's the best car Maruti has ever designed. When I had to switch from Maruti, the first question that came to my mind was - "Why don't Maruti have a car like Baleno now?"

It would not have made any difference if there was a Baleno or similar car available. To know why, just look at your purchase pattern that you yourself described in previous post - go looking for petrol Etios, like the way it drives, other factors also ok and then go buy the diesel. Not only does this say a lot about your expectations from the car, but also puts this in the league of those we have saying, "Aah, the Palio1.6, what a car it is and then go buy the 1.1/1.2/1.3 version" or the ones that ask for Swift1.6, but will never be the buyers.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

^^^
Rattles are not easy to correct. Heck at times it is tough to even identify where it comes from. Ask anyone with rattles and you would know. And this is not something that happens to all cars like you casually said or all Marutis either.

There are different aspects on rattles.

1) How many potential areas for rattles.
2) Frequency of the rattle niggle coming up
3) How noisy it gets.

I've used all Maruti's except the SX4 extensively. I can say for sure that all Maruti cars except the Baleno are affected by rattles. If you feel differently, then I may have to question your intentions or your experience in testing cars.

With regards to the debugging, yes it takes a bit of time, but if the potential areas are less, the frequency of workshop visit for rattle correction becomes less. With regards to Maruti, the issue is that rattle sources exist almost everywhere on the car and hence you end up with a higher frequency for rattles compared to the other brands. Personally, I don't care much on this aspect and is not a deal breaker for me. What is more important to me is the fundamentals of a car.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

I seriously dont think you have enough info about me to say whether I have the experience to judge Etios or not.

It's really easy to identify constructive criticism from cynical mindset. Have you even driven the Etios Diesel or Petrol for that matter for 100 kms before passing judgements on it ? Have you travelled in the rear, front on highways, cities and country roads ?

I've done that and I've done that before buying the car. So, I mean what I say.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

And regarding the loyalty part, it is your blind obesiance to Toyota that stands out on this thread.

I'm honest in saying that I'm loyal to Toyota. Even my footer says - "In love with Etios Diesel". And that's not after I bought this car. But, before. So, I've done my proper research on the pros and cons before becoming loyal to the brand and the model. Even after I bought the car, Toyota treated me well and so the loyalty still stands the same way.

I also felt your loyalty when you pulled the Swift brakes issue out of nowhere on the thread, trying your best to defend it when there is a thread on team-bhp dedicated to the Brake issues on the Swift. It might be difficult for you to accept your loyalty towards Maruti. But, it's the truth, my friend. And, I don't blame you for that because Maruti is such a great brand and shows true care for its customers.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

It would not have made any difference if there was a Baleno or similar car available. To know why, just look at your purchase pattern that you yourself described in previous post - go looking for petrol Etios, like the way it drives, other factors also ok and then go buy the diesel. Not only does this say a lot about your expectations from the car, but also puts this in the league of those we have saying, "Aah, the Palio1.6, what a car it is and then go buy the 1.1/1.2/1.3 version" or the ones that ask for Swift1.6, but will never be the buyers.

What do you want to convey here ? Only people who can afford to spend a fortune on Petrol knows what a car is and what a car's performance is ? I'm sure you haven't driven Etios Diesel. It's not just the engine specs that decide how good a car is on the highways. There are several other factors like

Gear ratio
Feel of the engine ( whether it feels strained or not )
Comfort at high speeds. ( read as suspensions )
The braking
And the amount of money you spend on the monthly maintenance.

Etios diesel has got everything spot on in that respect.
During my trip from Cochin to Vellore, I was constantly cruising at 120 to 140 kmph on 4 lane roads. It was not just the engine that made me do that, but the overall performance of the car on the aspects which I've pointed out above. During the whole trip, just 2 cars passed in front of me - The Hyundai Verna CRDi and the Corolla Altis Petrol. I was able to get in front of the Verna with some relative speed build up. But, will Corolla, it was cruising at 150 kmph to 160 kmph. So, while I agree that Etios might not have the ideal engine to cruise in a relaxed manner at 160 kmph ( the max speed I've tried on the Etios is 155 kmph. I didn't want to take it further because the engine felt strained ). if 140 kmph is your forte, then this is a gem of a car.

And with regards to city driving, it's a pleasure to drive it without those irritating turbo lag.

[RadiantKarma]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

It is not just about him. Let us for a moment assume that he has something against Toyota. But what about the other guys who on this thread itself have problems with the Etios like water-seepage, FE, rattling etc which are quoted below ?

My comment was clarificatory in nature, just in case you'd missed something, in response to your observation regarding people ganging up against someone and ridculing. Appears that you've been closely following the thread and it's not a case of miss. I accept my comment as pretty much irrelevant in the context.

However, I now want to supplement a few things to your fact-finding exercise:

1. @Chalu also mentioned that the leakage problem was rectified by A$$. Also, it is not known if some after-market speaker installation in the car caused the problem.
2. @DRC is yet to respond to my request to clarify if there was any aftermarket speaker installation.
3. @andromeda's rat entry in the car sure beats me as to how it can enter from underneath - or was it from an open door?

Just thought to clarify my part and to take forward the good exercise you initiated.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by amalji

There are different aspects on rattles. 1) How many potential areas for rattles. 2) Frequency of the rattle niggle coming up 3) How noisy it gets.

Most people here dont care about potential, frequency, how noisy, how musical etc when it comes to rattles - a rattle is a rattle and it should not be there.

Originally Posted by amalji

I've used all Maruti's except the SX4 extensively. I can say for sure that all Maruti cars except the Baleno are affected by rattles. If you feel differently, then I may have to question your intentions or your experience in testing cars

Interesting. I see you are in Cochin - we have a 2007Swift and a 2010 A-Star at Kerala - feel free to check them for rattles and let's see you find even 1. Neither does my Baleno have any rattle at Chennai. Our '99 M800 does have squeaks and rattles and for the money it cost us, I could not care less. So there goes your blanket claim.

The problem with you all through this thread is in the line in bold above - no one can feel differently than you. If you say Etios is perfect, no one can dispute that, even if some poor sod owns an Etios and is having trouble with it. If you say all Marutis rattle, then that is the absolute truth. And hellooo, what was that about questioning my intentions and experience in testing cars ? Boss, focus on yourself - do not try to judge people you dont know.

Originally Posted by amalji

It's really easy to identify constructive criticism from cynical mindset. Have you even driven the Etios Diesel or Petrol for that matter for 100 kms before passing judgements on it ? Have you travelled in the rear, front on highways, cities and country roads ?.

So now you have become an expert not only on cars, but also on mindsets!!! Just sitting in front of your PC, you can gauge if someone is constructive or cynical. Well, that should not be tough for you because your standard way here is to shout down people who have issues with the Etios and they then automatically become cynics, while those that praise the car are constructive. LOL !!! Whatever judgement was made was done by people who bought the car and the problem they faced. Not by me.

Originally Posted by amalji

I also felt your loyalty when you pulled the Swift brakes issue out of nowhere on the thread, trying your best to defend it when there is a thread on team-bhp dedicated to the Brake issues on the Swift.

The Swift brake issue was used sarcastically when someone said that the lack of gasket was not an issue.

My exact comment was "BTW, you know, the way you say "gasket design of Etios is different from most Indian cars" is akin to saying "the brake design of the L/V versions of new Swift is just different from most Indian cars" and so there is nothing inherently wrong with the former's braking. Would we accept that lame argument ?" The last line makes it amply clear that the brakes are not acceptable.

Originally Posted by amalji

What do you want to convey here ? Only people who can afford to spend a fortune on Petrol knows what a car is and what a car's performance is ? I'm sure you haven't driven Etios Diesel. It's not just the engine specs that decide how good a car is on the highways. There are several other factors like .... And the amount of money you spend on the monthly maintenance..

You know what was conveyed - that you for all your talk, are not even sure of what you want from the car. And "amount spent on monthly maintenance" decides how good a car is on highways ??? Interesting. And how did you arrive at this "crucial" parameter before buying a car that is only a few months old in the market ? Again, it must be your paranormal sense that lets you see into the future..

Originally Posted by amalji

During my trip from Cochin to Vellore, I was constantly cruising at 120 to 140 kmph on 4 lane roads. During the whole trip, just 2 cars passed in front of me - The Hyundai Verna CRDi and the Corolla Altis Petrol. I was able to get in front of the Verna with some relative speed build up. But, will Corolla, it was cruising at 150 kmph to 160 kmph.

No, the Etios would have eaten the Corolla too. And every other car on Indian roads. Let us crown Etios the king of the Indian jungle which eats every other car for lunch, dinner and breakfast. Also I did not know that cruising at 120-140 was such a big deal for a car in that price-segment.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Interesting. I see you are in Cochin - we have a 2007Swift and a 2010 A-Star at Kerala - feel free to check them for rattles and let's see you find even 1. Neither does my Baleno have any rattle at Chennai. Our '99 M800 does have squeaks and rattles and for the money it cost us, I could not care less. So there goes your blanket claim.

ok, good. here comes my challenge. Allow me to ride your vehicle from Cochin to Valpaara and back. You can accompany me, if you want to. If your vehicle doesn't rattle after the trip, then I take back all my words. What do you say ?
Challenge open for Swift and A-star

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

The problem with you all through this thread is in the line in bold above - no one can feel differently than you. If you say Etios is perfect, no one can dispute that, even if some poor sod owns an Etios and is having trouble with it. If you say all Marutis rattle, then that is the absolute truth.

I don't with everyone. I've only gotten into such arguments with 2.
And that's for a reason.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

And hellooo, what was that about questioning my intentions and experience in testing cars ? Boss, focus on yourself - do not try to judge people you dont know.

When people make judgements without experiencing the car in real, I'll have to.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

So now you have become an expert not only on cars, but also on mindsets!!! Just sitting in front of your PC, you can gauge if someone is constructive or cynical. Well, that should not be tough for you because your standard way here is to shout down people who have issues with the Etios and they then automatically become cynics, while those that praise the car are constructive. LOL !!! Whatever judgement was made was done by people who bought the car and the problem they faced. Not by me.

In team-bhp, only one person is not satisfied with this car. Only a cynic can generalize that as "Whatever judgement was made was done by people who bought the car and the problem they faced. Not by me".

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

The Swift brake issue was used sarcastically when someone said that the lack of gasket was not an issue.

My exact comment was "BTW, you know, the way you say "gasket design of Etios is different from most Indian cars" is akin to saying "the brake design of the L/V versions of new Swift is just different from most Indian cars" and so there is nothing inherently wrong with the former's braking. Would we accept that lame argument ?" The last line makes it amply clear that the brakes are not acceptable.

Wow, you even forget your own statements ? Now, what was that defending the swift braking issue. Read through your posts once again, my friend. you will get more statements to quote.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

You know what was conveyed - that you for all your talk, are not even sure of what you want from the car. And "amount spent on monthly maintenance" decides how good a car is on highways ??? Interesting. And how did you arrive at this "crucial" parameter before buying a car that is only a few months old in the market ? Again, it must be your paranormal sense that lets you see into the future..

Because I've spent a fortune on my Esteem everytime, it crashes on a gutter at high speeds. At the same time, I have friends who own Innova doing all sorts of crazy speed, but end up spending less than a much cheaper Maruti car during their periodic service. Toyota vehicles are meant to last. If you don't believe in that, it's ok. But, I do believe in that.

And yes, the trust in the ever reliable D-4D and brand Toyota allowed me to get into that conclusion. But, if you feel that that doesn't make sense, so be it. I have different algorithm running on my brain.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

No, the Etios would have eaten the Corolla too. And every other car on Indian roads. Let us crown Etios the king of the Indian jungle which eats every other car for lunch, dinner and breakfast. Also I did not know that cruising at 120-140 was such a big deal for a car in that price-segment.

Man, you are completely mis-interpreting facts. What I mentioned was that it makes me comfortable to cruise at 140 kmph on the Etios due to the excellent braking and ride comfort. An average Indian doesn't want to cruise at speeds above that, even though, we might test top speed at times. And I bought the car not for car racing. But, to enjoy the drive and keep the people inside the cabin safe and comfortable even at high speeds. Etios Diesel serves that purpose perfectly. Maybe, for you, the Indian Jungle only consists of Maruti. But, for me, it's different. Maruti has excellent engines on the Swift. But, it fails in many critical areas as well.

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by amalji

ok, good. here comes my challenge. Allow me to ride your vehicle from Cochin to Valpaara and back. You can accompany me, if you want to. If your vehicle doesn't rattle after the trip, then I take back all my words. What do you say ? Challenge open for Swift and A-star

Both the cars have done the hills (Idukki) and while the former has 23K kms on it, the latter has 7K. If it did not rattle all this while on various roads including the pothole-filled NH47 between Cochin and Kollam where it does most of the runs, I dont see Valparai making a difference.

Originally Posted by amalji

When people make judgements without experiencing the car in real, I'll have to.

Feel free, but just ensure that it is on your private blog. Don't try your questioning/testing stuff on a public forum.

Originally Posted by amalji

In team-bhp, only one person is not satisfied with this car. Only a cynic can generalize that as "Whatever judgement was made was done by people who bought the car and the problem they faced. Not by me".

In a previous post I quoted 3 people having issues. And this is excluding munish and the OP of this thread. And you still see only 1 person. That itself shows how you view things.

Originally Posted by amalji

Because I've spent a fortune on my Esteem everytime, it crashes on a gutter at high speeds. At the same time, I have friends who own Innova doing all sorts of crazy speed, but end up spending less than a much cheaper Maruti car during their periodic service..

Nice - very correct comparison you make between a low-slung sedan and an MUV and the damage they will each take on bad roads. Why did you not instead compare the Esteem with the Landcruiser Prado or Fortuner ? I am not surprised, given the way you got 'attracted' to the petrol Etios and then bought the diesel.

Originally Posted by amalji

Toyota vehicles are meant to last. If you don't believe in that, it's ok. But, I do believe in that.

Indeed, as many owners in the US are discovering at their peril. But wait, that is if they survive the crash. And to make the cars last even more, team-Toyota is working overtime to recall cars by the thousands to fix various issues.

[amalji]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Both the cars have done the hills (Idukki) and while the former has 23K kms on it, the latter has 7K. If it did not rattle all this while on various roads including the pothole-filled NH47 between Cochin and Kollam where it does most of the runs, I dont see Valparai making a difference.

Did you not read my challenge. Just let me know, if you agree or not.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Feel free, but just ensure that it is on your private blog. Don't try your questioning/testing stuff on a public forum.

If I see people who don't want to accept brands other than their own brands, I'll post my views on it even if it's a public forum. If you can use your powers to ban me from the forum, please feel free.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

In a previous post I quoted 3 people having issues. And this is excluding munish and the OP of this thread. And you still see only 1 person. That itself shows how you view things.

Out of that, 2 don't own the car. And the other person's issue is not yet confirmed as well. I call this attitude cynicism .

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Nice - very correct comparison you make between a low-slung sedan and an MUV and the damage they will each take on bad roads. Why did you not instead compare the Esteem with the Landcruiser Prado or Fortuner ? I am not surprised, given the way you got 'attracted' to the petrol Etios and then bought the diesel.

I've taken my friend's swift for service, and I know how much the maruti suspensions, tie rods and lower arms can take. With the etios, I expect that to be better, because toyota spares last more. If it doesn't, then I will suffer.

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Indeed, as many owners in the US are discovering at their peril. But wait, that is if they survive the crash. And to make the cars last even more, team-Toyota is working overtime to recall cars by the thousands to fix various issues.

Now, since you have taken the issue all along to usa, would you mind comparing the market share of suzuki in usa with that of toyota. Do that post the recall issue as well if you wish to. Toyota cars sell for a reason. Their usp is low cost of ownership and high reliability. They are slowly getting into suzuki's fort - India. I do not want maruti to fail. But at the same time, I want them to give more importance to fundamentals like space and braking.