[SAE40 in veins]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

^^ it;s a diff matter that when the car entered the service center , it still has 7 days of warranty left or when they refused engine warranty because the Owner has changed the Bulb on his car. there are many more such stories , only thing is that they don;t get into public domain for obvious reasons.

Tata's A S S that way is better than some of the European makers operating out of India.....Skoda being a case in point. A flawless vehicle goes to the service center for periodic service and comes out with a tag of 30,000 Rs (Now that is when the vehicle is flawless). A vehicle with minor issues can get a bill of upto a lakh depending on the niggles.
Experience with TAFE in Chennai has not been so good according to a few Skoda owners.

Indicas on the other hand do not cost more than Rs 3000 to service even with bushes and some minor parts being changed.

[Steeroid]

I believe the quoted reply from TML was a mature reaction from the company to a situation where a person (who is a a vendor and therefore an 'interested' person subject to various biases) has taken it upon himself to use a thread discussing the CMD's departure to compare it by name to several others in the same industry and point out only it's flaws.

TML has demonstrated to the world at large that it has several strengths - it is not a public sector undertaking running off taxes, nor is it one of the organizations that have thrived due to (purchased) government patronage of it's products.

Whatever their weaknesses may be - and they aren't the only auto manufacturer with weaknesses - I am sure their strengths, maturity and principles will help them prevail.

On a personal note, I have owned a TML product for about 4 years and 100k punishing kms after which it was sold. That vehicle is missed every time I get back home, and regardless of the mob mentality exhibited in a place where I used to be a regular I will have no hesitation in putting my $ on another TML product in future.

My 2c, and I am out of here.

[rkg]

General assumption here in the forum is like "TATA may not be upto mark because they do not do proper QC or don't bother about QC".

But what about Toyota Fortuner brakes . approximately 50-60% of initial fortuner's sold in India had brake problem. Finally Toyota has to go for imported brake pads.

So does this mean Toyota did not have any QC or did not do any QC on these parts? What happened to the famed Toyota partnership with vendors training them, installing better QC at vendor places etc etc.........

What about Hyundai i20 steering problems? So hyundai might have bargained for very less price from vendors and did not bother about QC

To me it appears it is typical Indian attitude reflected through vendors whether they are supplying to TATA or Toyota or hyundai

My brother in law's Innova had to undergo clutch change by 25 K Km. At the same time my Indica Vista clutch is still going great after 50K.

can we conclude based on this that TATA is better than Toyota in QC?

Almost all cars have problems. Iam not justifying the TATA here. Only thing is TATA customers are more vocal than others. this is my opinion

It is my personal assumption with some valid first hand experiences that TATA cars do more milage per year compared to other makers in India ( this is on an average. i.e if one takes the milage of 100 cars of each model and calculates the average milage per year)

Any car which runs more is subjected to more wear and tear.

[SAE40 in veins]

Originally Posted by rkg

It is my personal assumption with some valid first hand experiences that TATA cars do more milage per year compared to other makers in India ( this is on an average. i.e if one takes the milage of 100 cars of each model and calculates the average milage per year)

Any car which runs more is subjected to more wear and tear.

+1 to that

To put things in perspective, almost 90 % of Tata vehicles fall in the yellow board category and close to just 5% of ...say Maruti vehicles fall in that category. This means that over 90% of Tata vehicles live below the 'Poverty line' when it comes to maintenance and abuse against just 5% of MUL vehicles which face that kind of treatment. It will be fair to compare vehicles in similar segments say a Safari vs Scorpio or a Grande vs Xylo when it comes to quality rather than go on a blind Tata bashing spree......

Just my 2c

[rkg]

Originally Posted by SAE40 in veins

+1 to that

To put things in perspective, almost 90 % of Tata vehicles fall in the yellow board category and close to just 5% of ...say Maruti vehicles fall in that category. This means that over 90% of Tata vehicles live below the 'Poverty line' when it comes to maintenance and abuse against just 5% of MUL vehicles which face that kind of treatment. It will be fair to compare vehicles in similar segments say a Safari vs Scorpio or a Grande vs Xylo when it comes to quality rather than go on a blind Tata bashing spree......

Just my 2c

Not only yellow boards, even white board TATA cars put up more milage than Maruti/hyundai's etc

[supremeBaleno]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

at least they honor the warranty claims without a question being asked

Indeed they do. And from what I have read on the forum, they are pretty customer-friendly in this aspect, compared to others. But what exactly is warranty ? It is the confidence a company places in its product that the product will not fail in the warranty duration. So, the idea is that exercising warranty should be an exception rather than the norm. Only for the rare case when something fails. Not something to be abused/exercised multiple times for the same vehicle and by many customers.

While as a customer I would be happy if the company honours my warranty claim, won't it be better for me if that situation (of having to claim warranty due to something breaking down) never arose ? Who wants to be stranded on the road or having to shuttle to garages or having to deal with stupid SAs and their managers ? I would rather drive a car and visit them only once a year for the scheduled service. After warranty expires, I am done with that too - off to my known friendly garage.

It is not like non_Tata cars "never" have issues. But while their failures as a %age of vehicles sold is low, it is higher for Tata vehicles. And as pointed out by sridhar-v, lack of effective QC seems to be the main cause.

For a moment, we can ignore the Indicas since many run as taxis and might be abused. But what is the explanation for the issues seen on their flagship Safari. All one needs to do is read the reviews on the forum.

And to say that we get what we pay for is a load of bull. Just because someone pays only 2L for the Nano, does not mean he is not entitled to get a reliable car. Or because the Safari costs lesser than the Endy, should it not be niggle-free ? Cut down on features by all means, but ensure that what remains, works as expected.

[discoverwild]

A list of the cars we have had over the years from what I can recall to substantiate the above two comments.

Indica 2006 - 155000 kms and running.
Indigo Marina 2006 - 123000 kms and running.
Ikon 1.6 2002 - 123000 kms and running.
Sumo - 150000 kms and sold in 3 years.
Qualis - 120000 kms and sold in 4 years.
Contessa - 85000 kms in 4 years and sold.
Ambassador - 85000 kms in 5 years and sold.
Hyundai Santro - 75000 kms in 3 years, replaced silencer 3 times.
Maruti 1000 - 85000 kms in 5 years and probably the most problematic and sold.
Gypsy King - 107000 kms in 10 years.
Maruti 800 - 245000 or more kms in 20 years.

My cousin picked up an Indica Vista this year and my brother picked up a Nano as his daily drive in Tirupur this week. We might be looking at the Aria next year or the Safari successor.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by .sushilkumar

tanveer , point is that no product is trouble free. nobody is perfect when it comes to mass production of cars or any other product for that matter. If your indica has a power switch failure than there are 9 others as well who are working fine. Why point out that one only and forgetting about 9 others which are running fine . Every car has a niggle or two and where did i pointed out Power windows switches and Ac blowers things . Let us not talk in single context. one needs to see the whole picture.

As for quality goes, it;s a continuous improvement process . like of toyota's / honda still hasn't perfect that despite being in market for many decades now . aren;t we over expecting here given that they are in passenger car market for just 15-18 years now .everybody would agree here that the newly launched cars has way better quality and interiors with less niggles compared to earlier one .

No offense but yes, you have unrealistic expectations considering above.

LOL
I own a safari too.
If expecting that the on the day of delivery the lights should not stop working is an unrealistic expectation... well then we can agree to disagree.

[sachinayak]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Cut down on features by all means, but ensure that what remains, works as expected.

While this may work for you it may not work for others. Else the Logan (based on hearsay) could have been a bestseller in its segment. BTW, i do agree overall with what you are trying to convey, but gone are days when you could be under-equipped on features (unless of course you are a Toyota/Honda) and sell.

BTW, IMHO as someone rightly pointed out earlier, this thread needs to be split into a "quality" related issues at Tata Motors and let the discussion on the CEO's resignation stay independent.

Originally Posted by tsk1979

LOL
I own a safari too.
If expecting that the on the day of delivery the lights should not stop working is an unrealistic expectation... well then we can agree to disagree.

Would you have a similar opinion of the Aria as well?

[.sushilkumar]

Originally Posted by supremeBaleno

Indeed they do. And from what I have read on the forum, they are pretty customer-friendly in this aspect, compared to others. But what exactly is warranty ? It is the confidence a company places in its product that the product will not fail in the warranty duration. So, the idea is that exercising warranty should be an exception rather than the norm. Only for the rare case when something fails. Not something to be abused/exercised multiple times for the same vehicle and by many customers.

While as a customer I would be happy if the company honours my warranty claim, won't it be better for me if that situation (of having to claim warranty due to something breaking down) never arose ? Who wants to be stranded on the road or having to shuttle to garages or having to deal with stupid SAs and their managers ? I would rather drive a car and visit them only once a year for the scheduled service. After warranty expires, I am done with that too - off to my known friendly garage.

It is not like non_Tata cars "never" have issues. But while their failures as a %age of vehicles sold is low, it is higher for Tata vehicles. And as pointed out by sridhar-v, lack of effective QC seems to be the main cause.

For a moment, we can ignore the Indicas since many run as taxis and might be abused. But what is the explanation for the issues seen on their flagship Safari. All one needs to do is read the reviews on the forum.

And to say that we get what we pay for is a load of bull. Just because someone pays only 2L for the Nano, does not mean he is not entitled to get a reliable car. Or because the Safari costs lesser than the Endy, should it not be niggle-free ? Cut down on features by all means, but ensure that what remains, works as expected.

well ,i see no point in inventing the wheel again and again . as for QC control goes, it;s same at every place.

for eg : - I happened to met a person in train on my recent trip to Pune. he used to work for MSIL and was going to pune to join GM . a casual discussion ensured and his simple advice was " Pls stay off from maruti " reason , their QC person ;s are normally forced to pass even those cars which do not meet QC standards .

Another instance : - I was returning from hong kong and Met a GM of MSIL in flight,( still has his business card in my purse ) who was coming from tokyo our discussion turned towards car , he is a owner of ford . jokingly i asked him why no Maruti : - he remained silent and dodged my question skill fully .

PS : - I am off this thread . no point in discussing same thing again.

[Latheesh]

Whatever TATA is facing now is the transformation from a commercial vehicle manufacturer to a passenger vehicle manufacturer. This CHANGE is not an easy task. While agreeing with comments made by sridhar, I am confident that within few years they will be able to match quality level of global players. I can see the sign of these improvement from Vista-Manza-Aria-Vista refresh launches. Slowly they are getting there! and this is what I would like to see as an Indian.

Regarding issues at process level, this happens in almost all industries (including IT) due to some stupid people at the middle/top management. I have seen similar things happening at the so called R&D centres of global companies in India. Even global players like Toyota and Honda launched products in India with various issues. Owners of these cars feels that these issues are part of the 'premium brand' deal. I am not going deep in to the products like Liva and Etios here. People say issues are because these cars are built to cost, but I do not think these cars are cheap. They are priced at par with the market price of other models.

From various ownership reviews I can see that TATA A.S.S is improved a lot. I think they are better than Skoda, VW, GM. I get pathetic service from GM A.S.S. Hyundai and Maruti are mixed bag.

We Indians are happy with stripped down version of International models and are ready to pay extra premium for the badge. I read in the forum that MB is launching new van under Force badge (read cheap quality).

An international company planning to launch cheap low quality truck under Indian brand. And their first prototype failed (fell apart) miserably during initial stages of testing.

Less said about Mahindra and their product development, but things are changing at their end too. XUV500 and Mini Xylo are the signs of that.

I think TML and Mahindra will emerge as a true global players from India within few years.

[honeybee]

Guys, let's understand one thing: The tata owners here are not dissing their products, they are upset because things which are supposed to work right from day one haven't been working right from day one. So please stop treating this thread as Tata bashing and look at it for what it is: an effort to find out why these problems occur and see if TMIL can do something about turning this trend about.

While Mr. Shridhar has already given some insights into the workings of the different manufacturers, there are certain observations he and others have made regarding the practices being followed at TMIL which do deserve attention.

Me and others have requested Mr. Shridhar to post more of his experiences simply because they contain great insight into how manufacturers work, not because they are anti-Tata. So I request all of you to get over that Tata bashing feeling once and for all.

So instead of talking about hanging down and posting pics of the same, let's patiently wait till Mr. Shridhar can post back more of his experiences. Or if the mods think this is digressing from the original topic, let's have this thread closed and create a separate thread for Mr. Shridhar's posts.

[tsk1979]

Originally Posted by sachinayak

Would you have a similar opinion of the Aria as well?

I cannot have an opinion about the Aria because I do not have one. Only think I can think about Aria is that its not really overpriced. It has Airbags, EBD, Satnav etc., and for these features 15L is not a big deal.
Probably if it has a SUV shape it would have sold more. Very few people in India buy expensive minivans.
For example, if Mercedes comes with a minivan which costs as much as C Class with same features, it will bomb too.
Or if somebody makes a great hatchback which costs as much as a sedan it will bomb too, because we still have a mentality that a hatchback has to be cheap.
however, the entire point of discussion is not that Tata cuts features in Indica and safari to make them cheap.
People are trying to sidetrack the discussion, and accusing naysayers that we are protesting because Tata is not giving Audi features in a Nano.
For the record, the 13L tata safari matches the Fortuner when it comes to features.
Tata cars never had lack of features.
Even the old indicas had 6 speed intermittent mode. That was at a time when competition did not even give an intermittant mode on entry level cars.
So Tata has never made a car which skims on features.
Give me the name of One Tata car which has had less features than a same segment Hyundai/Honda/Maruti.
The problem with Tata is whether what they give works or not.

For example, a working rear differential in a 4x4 safari can be called an essential feature. Failure of this part in almost Each and every Safari 4x4 beyond 60-70000 kms is definitely a cause for concern.

Speaking of honoring warranty claims, it good, but tell me, how many of us have time to take the vehicle to service center every month to get a problem fixed.

Open any safari review thread, and then compare with other cars.
50% of safari owners keep visiting the service center to get those niggles fixed. After 100,000kms or when extended warranty gets over, they sell their safari, because they know now what will happen.

and somebody made a claim that 90% Tata cars are Yellow board. Well I would like to ask the gentleman, how does he know. I can make a claim that in the history of Tata motors only 1337 cars were sold to private owners, and rest everything was yellow board. Unless I can back that claim, I am just stating something because I have a hand which can write on the keyboard.

Originally Posted by Steeroid

On a personal note, I have owned a TML product for about 4 years and 100k punishing kms after which it was sold. That vehicle is missed every time I get back home, and regardless of the mob mentality exhibited in a place where I used to be a regular I will have no hesitation in putting my $ on another TML product in future.

My 2c, and I am out of here.

Steeroid good to see your inputs as a fellow Safari owner. I understand you have a lot of emotional attachment to Tata.
But when giving your opinions, would it not be nice to be alteast a little objective, for the benefit of other members who are following the discussion.
For example, you can say , that your safari had lots of problems(which were not niggles) and yet you are happy with it since its a wonderful vehicle.
I am a safari fan too, and given a choice between a Safari and Scorpio I may again end up with a Safari. But does that make my safari a problem free vehicle?

If you do not know what I am referring to, let me refresh your memory.
You started a safari long term ownership review. This was started after second free service, which I presume was done at 10K.

you baby your vehicle, going for a voluntary oil change at 5XXXkms
So definitely it was not a yellow board safari.

Now lets look at the problems of your safari, in your words

1. A/c coils develop a leak @ about 1000 kms. Coils replaced by Subros.

2. A/c switch doesnt work on '1' and '4'. Switch replaced by Subros.

3. Starter motor conks off one rainy day @ about 4,000 kms. Motor replaced by TVS.

4. A/c compressor fan bearings shot @ about 4,500 kms on the way to Bangalore. Fan assembly replaced by Subros. By now most of my HVAC has been replaced.

5. Wiring fault causes the alarm to go off one night, waking up the entire neighbourhood because the vehicle's horn is the alarm. Mended by Minda engineers next morning after I switch off the theft alarm and lock the car manually.

6. Cabin lights switch on and off randomly.

7. Front window glass panes rattle. Fixed.

so your brand new vehicle had
AC failure, Ac switch failure, Starter motor failure, AC compressor failure, Wiring Fault, some rattles.

Now of course rattles can happen in any vehicle. But tell me. Is the entire AC and major electricals failing within 10,000kms acceptable? In any vehicle?

And then, lets go through retrofits.
Why the retrofits. Was Tata sleeping when it designed the vehicle? While we make such a hue and cry about a recall for a power window switch, Tata does recalls every full moon on critical components, silently.

1. Clutch slave cylinder drain pipe changed to avoid clutch failure on account of the drain pipe falling off. New drain pipe with locking mechanism fixed.

2. Hi-tension cables from the battery to the Starter Motor replaced with a Korean cable.

3. Fuel feed plumbing changed to a chinese/korean make.

4. Plumbing to intercooler changed/modified. Again replaced with a foreign component.

@ 7,500 kms approx, no complaints from my side:

1. EGR Valve band changed through an ECU update. EGR valve band is now 900~2200 in place of 700~2400 earlier. Result - drastic reduction in exhaust smoke, which has almost disappeared completely. Very little smoke on hard acceleration. ENGINE IS SMOOTHER.

2. EGR Valve Modulator retro-fitted onto the engine.

3. Turbo plumbing changed. No modifications, just replaced with better quality (imported?) piping.

4. Additional insulation and stays retrofitted around electrical cables at some points in the engine bay - allegedly some wires have shorted against the radiator elsewhere.

So the good Part. When a vehicle is in warranty, they replace everything. For example, around 25000kms they gave you new clutch and release bearings?
They did that for me also at 20,000kms

so far so good.
The question is what happens when warranty gets over?

And another thing, if a company has active customer care department, does it compensate for a shoddy engineering/Quality department?

[Cesc]

Great post Tanveer

@ Steeroid - Looks like you had plenty of issues with your Safari. No offence mate but the way you posted on this thread looked as if you had a trouble-free ownership experience. A more appropriate way of putting it would have been along the lines Tanveer has suggested.

Also I do feel that that people speculating on WHY Forster resigned is really not OT on this thread.

[rrsteer]

Excellent Post, Tanveer! If it was possible would have rated it 5 stars!!

I think whatever knowledge sharing was being done was being done in a good spirit. I would look like a fool if I plonk a million rupees on a manufacturer and then, were to choose an internet forum for indiscriminate criticism (or bashing) of the very same manufacturer.

But if I have put my money on the product of a manufacturer and the product is generally tending to be niggle some, I am within rights to seek and ask more knowledgeable people as to why this is happening so regularly with my product. I would be curious...no very curious to know whats wrong.

Now some people as found out by Tanveer are not even ready to admit the wrong but are plainly interested in putting their silly points across to others.

While some are not letting others even understand the basis of how or why this wrong is happening and want to stop a good discussion by needlessly branding it as Tata bashing or unwarranted criticism of home grown manufacturers !!