[Tommie]

Originally Posted by diffsoft

But if you think about Europeans (Germans surely) their belief as I understand, is something of "permanent value" - think Mont Blanc, Leica camera, Swiss watches, machine components and even cars ( I think).

I have lived and worked in Germany for a long time. Germans also believe in long term but they also believe in higher reliability for that term. An probability of an older car to break down in adverse conditions is pretty high such as during a snow storm or a cold winter morning. Additionally, the insurance and maintenance cost for an older car goes very high(almost exponentially) since the labor costs are high. Hence its become a norm to change the car almost every 10 years in the country.

Few years back when one of my collegue visited me in Bangalore, I took him in my 14 yr old Maruti Esteem and he was highly surprised by the fact that I am using such an old car. The reason he said how can a 14 year old car give reliability and I told him that this is the difference between a German and a Japanese car and he quite agreed with it. However, he also mentioned that he could not drive in these light Japanese cars since he does not feel safe.

Similarly, one of my friends met with a major accident in the US and he keeps saying that he is alive today since it was an American Car. If it was a Japanese car, he would not have been alive.

So there are pros and cons with each culture and the way of thinking in each country.

[RadiantKarma]

Originally Posted by Tommie

Similarly, one of my friends met with a major accident in the US and he keeps saying that he is alive today since it was an American Car. If it was a Japanese car, he would not have been alive.

So there are pros and cons with each culture and the way of thinking in each country.

Well said Tommie. Thanks for brining in this perspective.

For Americans, the term quality means 'safe cabin' more than 'long-term reliability'. This is a big reason they would rather buy Amercian/German cars. Life is precious! And they can afford to, and they do, change cars every 3-4 years. Hence, they do not demand long-term reliability and, therefore, American companies generally do not have organizational culture/manufacturing or quality practices with such a focus either.

For desis in America though, the same term quality means long term reliability! And they all veer to Japanese cars!

Deeply ingrained cultural differences get carried overseas too!

[dkaile]

The cars I have owned (as far back as I can remember) are -

- Ambassador (2nd hand - Willed by my Nanaji on his death)
- Fiat (2 nos - both old and our 1st brand new car ever - the wiper fell off on 1st use on it's return journey from the Fiat Delhi dealership on our brand new FIAT)
- Maruti 800 Dlx (original one with pure leather seat covers - New around 1984/5 - One of the first DLX models that I purchased) - Never quite again got that quality
- Lots of New Maruti 800s after that (at least 3 come in mind). I went to my wedding in a New Maruti 800 (bought with my own money) - Lolz

All New (chronologically) thereafter unless specifically mentioned-
- Maruti 1000
- Maruti Esteem
- Daewoo Cielo (2nd hand in quite new condition)
- Daewoo Matiz (I just loved this car) - Solid compared to the Hyundai Santro
- Hyundai Santro (have owned in total 3 times)

- Honda City 1.3 EXi (Our first proper upgrade to high quality sedan)
- Toyota Qualis - Current (2002)
- Toyota Corolla - Just Sold (2004)
- Hyundai Santro - Current (2009)
- Hyundai i10 - Current (2010)
- Toyota Fortuner - Current (2011)

Now after owning and driving personally so many brands and models of vehicles, you will note that in the last few years I have stuck with Toyota in large car segment and Hyundai in small car segment (because Toyota didn't have a small car then). These are the two brands that provided me the most PEACE of MIND & BANG for my BUCK out of all the other I had tried.

Some observations-
- After using Maruti for so many years (6 brand NEW cars in total), I tried Daewoo Matiz and Hyundai Santro and immediately felt that Maruti had ripped me for so many years. I never went back to them thereafter.
- After using Honda for the 1st time, I tasted real quality in cars but it was short-lived and their cars started shake, rattle and roll within 3 years of ownership. It was not so solid as I had presumed a Japanese would be.
- After using Toyota, I felt real quality that lasted. Their cars were initially over-priced but brought a smile even after years of ownership - My Corolla long term Ownership review - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/long-t...t-55000km.html & My Fortuner Initial Ownership Review - http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/test-d...uilt-last.html . These stand testimony to my love for Toyota.

FINAL ANALYSIS -

The brands I would buy TODAY are (in order of preference) -

- TOYOTA
- HYUNDAI
- VOLKSWAGEN
- BMW
- MARUTI
- MAHINDRA (Just because of the XUV 5OO)

Neutral About -
- Chevrolet
- Ford
- Honda
- Nissan
- Skoda

The brands I would NOT buy are -
- Fiat
- Tata

And this is coming from the horse's mouth after trying most brands.

[informmaha]

Originally Posted by mxx

I feel it will be better if people post based on their personal experience rather than hear say. How many of the people here who have given positive and negative comments actually owned or used these cars personally to know about their reliability??? Without comments based on personal experiences, this thread seems pointless.

Originally Posted by Saanil

Agree with mxx. How is it possible for everyone to vote for different manufacturers without even owning the cars. Most people have included Toyota in their list because they have heard Toyota is good. I do not think this is fair. People should just vote for the reliability of the cars they have owned. Suppose there are 100 people who have owned a Hyundai they should just vote for Hyundai - They can either vote for excellent service/neutral/Pathetic. So like this we know that out of 100 how many people like Hyundai's service and how many dislike it. Voting just on the basis of hearing or reading is pointless.

I definitely go with these guys here.. If we have to comment on the list, we need to have owned every vehicle in the Indian market. Everyone feels that the vehicle that they have bought is the best (with some exceptions). The voting should be on the brands that they have owned, something like saanil has mentioned here. That would be wise, rather than everyone rating vehicles according to their liking. If I say that I like "XXXXX" brand, the next person would give another "YYYYY" brand as their preference, since I or they own it. No one can come to any decision from this thread. It's better we have some voting as such to cast our vote rather than fight with each other, just for the sake of keeping our head's up. Should we come to a conclusion based on the majority here? For example "Many have rated Honda's ownership high, and some have said Honda ownership sucks - what do we arrive from this?" The thread topic has very well deviated from what it is now. The topic means the perceptions based on reliability and hass-free ownership and not reviews based on threads or giving a list based on our liking.

Originally Posted by dkaile

The cars I have owned (as far back as I can remember) are -

All New (chronologically) thereafter unless specifically mentioned-
- Maruti 1000
- Maruti Esteem
- Daewoo Cielo (2nd hand in quite new condition)
- Daewoo Matiz (I just loved this car) - Solid compared to the Hyundai Santro
- Hyundai Santro (have owned in total 3 times)

- Honda City 1.3 EXi (Our first proper upgrade to high quality sedan)
- Toyota Qualis - Current (2002)
- Toyota Corolla - Just Sold (2004)
- Hyundai Santro - Current (2009)
- Hyundai i10 - Current (2010)
- Toyota Fortuner - Current (2011)


FINAL ANALYSIS -

The brands I would buy TODAY are (in order of preference) -

- TOYOTA
- HYUNDAI
- VOLKSWAGEN
- BMW
- MARUTI
- MAHINDRA (Just because of the XUV 5OO)

Neutral About -
- Chevrolet
- Ford
- Honda
- Nissan
- Skoda

The brands I would NOT buy are -
- Fiat
- Tata

And this is coming from the horse's mouth after trying most brands.

Dkaile, I agree with some of your points here, You have owned so many vehicles and you can comment on the vehicles that you have owned. How did you come to a conclusion that you would not recommend Fiat and TATA without using them? If you had taken the words of ajay, you cannot say this, right?

Originally Posted by ajay_satpute

I have a question to all you guys. What do you know about owning a Tata vehicle and A.S.S. experience to say that Tata is a big letdown, Tata is unreliable and all sorts of things? Don't make a statement by reading others experiences or stories. No car company is perfect, yes not even a Merc or a Beemer. In India, everything runs on a sentiment, be it stock market, automobile sector or most of the sectors. If your neighbour says, Maruti is reliable and Tata is bad, you will think twice before going to Tata. But, how many of us check the authenticity of the information?

I agree with ajay's point here, all cars have their positives and negatives, whatever be the class of the vehicle. Definitely the fact is that when we get a negative comment on a vehicle, we never check for the authenticity. I have heard so many people speaking about cars without even knowing anything about it. For example when I was in my office bus, a group of people were discussing about Ford Figo and were discussing that Ford is basically an European company, can you believe this? All they know is that Ford figo sells, nothing more than that. Do we need to know about a company's history before buying a car? no definitely I did not mean that. Just trying to give a point on how people are driven by word of mouth rather than getting into it. Frankly speaking, how many people test drive all the brands before coming to a conclusion on their buy? may be 60%?

Upon the end of your reply, it's again "I would NOT buy", "I" is the factor that is driven here. Sorry for pointing you, not only you, this whole thread is revolving on the "I" factor only. If I had commented on the list, it would not have been any different, I would have given my decision based on what I had heard or read upon.

[dkaile]

Originally Posted by informmaha

Dkaile, I agree with some of your points here, You have owned so many vehicles and you can comment on the vehicles that you have owned. How did you come to a conclusion that you would not recommend Fiat and TATA without using them? If you had taken the words of ajay, you cannot say this, right?

Well, I nearly purchased Tata cars twice (Tata Indica & Tata Safari) in my lifetime. And both times either the dealership or the test drive undid it for me. I had also booked the Fiat 118NE (if you even remember that car) and the same episode with the dealership and test drive made me cancel them.
Also my cousin owns a Indica and has driven it for over a lakh of kms but build quality leaves a lot to be desired, which is not a priority for him but it is for me.

Fiat is going nowhere with its shared dealership and though they have some solid products on the block, I feel both Linea and Punto are better than many other in the market, but still their lack of commitment to India leaves me thinking whether I will be stranded like what happened to me in Daewoo's case. So unless they go all out and open direct dealerships and improve their after sales network, they are not convincing me to buy their products.

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by RadiantKarma

The idea behind this thread is to create a ready reckoner for the BHPians while hunting for a new car. Long-term reliability and hassle-free ownership is a vital decision factor that most people need to take into account, and sometimes many forget to! A prospective car buyer also gets several conflicting views from different quarters and is at a loss.

Great thread RadiantKarma. And pretty interesting responses as well.

Saw some views that the folks should comment only on the cars they own. It does have logic, but I tend to think differently. Being a part of this wonderful community, we kind of know the brands in offer, and quite a bit of pros and cons associated with each of the players. Afterall its these perceptions which will finally impact the buying decision.

On a personal front, I see no issues with Ford’s reliability or AS&S. If I look the ownership feedbacks and experiences from friends and relatives, Toyota does score high on the reliability ranking. And from the feedback I see on the forum, VW is doing pretty well.

[manasmadaan]

Originally Posted by Tommie

Few years back when one of my collegue visited me in Bangalore, I took him in my 14 yr old Maruti Esteem and he was highly surprised by the fact that I am using such an old car. The reason he said how can a 14 year old car give reliability and I told him that this is the difference between a German and a Japanese car and he quite agreed with it. However, he also mentioned that he could not drive in these light Japanese cars since he does not feel safe.

Similarly, one of my friends met with a major accident in the US and he keeps saying that he is alive today since it was an American Car. If it was a Japanese car, he would not have been alive.

So there are pros and cons with each culture and the way of thinking in each country.

Absolutely true, each car manufacturer has some positives and negatives. European cars are known for their build quality and the japanese and koreans for their long term reliability. One can chose according to his/her requirements.
How wonderful it would be if we get a car with european build and safety and japanese reliabiliy

[Tommie]

Originally Posted by manasmadaan

Absolutely true, each car manufacturer has some positives and negatives. European cars are known for their build quality and the japanese and koreans for their long term reliability. One can chose according to his/her requirements.
How wonderful it would be if we get a car with european build and safety and japanese reliabiliy

Partially its getting true in this global economy. Here are few cases

1) Suzuki, Fiat, Tata using the Fiat Engine. Japanese and Indian car with Italian Engine
2) GM using the Korean Daewoo Engine in Cruze and Captiva. An american build with Korean engine.

Please feel free to add more similar examples.

I would see more like this happening in the coming years. The two companies that I foresee to take over such a global stance to source the products/components from the worlds best location are GM and Volkswagon.

[jaguar9]

As for me-

On reliability front:
1 Honda
2 Toyota
(Nothing can beat the Japanese reliability of these brand)

On A.S.S front :
1 Maruti
2 Hyundai

*If you are buying a new car, you must go in for reliability..this will result in carefree ownership. Nothing goes wrong in the cars for years.
*If you are buying a used car 3-4 plus years old, I would suggest that you give importance to A.S.S. The later two of the brands are cheap on spares too.

[DevilsCry]

Consider the following observations-
1. Many company's reliability and A.S.S goes for a toss when they have too many dealers/service centers and sell cheap cars for masses.
2. Some cars of a company are known to be very reliable and some cars unreliable or to be having known issues. The steering rattling problem of Hyundai is an example.

Based on the above observation and taking the worst case scenario, my list is as follows (not facts but just what I feel)-

Most hassle free ownership-
1. Suzuki Arguably largest number of cars in India belongs to Suzuki and yet reliability and ease of ownership of an Alto is comparable to a Honda/Toyota. A first time buyer can easily buy an Alto and have peace of mind while a person will be worried a bit while buying a Superb. Suzuki deserves an award for this!
2. Mahindra Their cars are very popular in rural areas where most cars break down easily. Yet their cars have high reliability and are easy to repair/service.

Not so hassle free but livable-
1. Tata I agree that about 7 years ago, Tata's were a pain to own but these days they seem to have improved a lot. Also remember that they sell a lot of cars and have a lot of dealers.
2. Most other companies like Chevrolet and Ford.

Hassling ownership, possibly dealbreaker-
1. Fiat No need to explain this one.
2. Skoda Imagine buying a Superb and having problems with it!
3. Hyundai Imagine buying an i20 with your hard earned money only to sell it in a few months due to steering problem. Also, inconsistent mileage and higher maintenance cost might be worrisome for some people who have Suzuki cars as alternative.
4. Toyota Imagine that you are not so rich but still spent much more than your budget to buy an Etios/Liva just for because of the reliability and hassle free ownership promise given by the badge and discovering problems like clutch failure, single digit mileage and rainwater seeping in. While most people think that these might be false claims but I have followed their Facebook page for three months when I was in hunt for a new car. It was really pitying to see their dealers are not used to dealing with problematic Toyota's leaving the owners in agony. Toyota, in my opinion, has lost it by going to the masses.

Questionable-
1. Honda Brio is their first ever masses car. Let's see if they will still have the landmark reliability and hassle free ownership.

I hope I am not going to be bashed for having such an unexpected list. I am not in sides or against any company.

[manasmadaan]

Originally Posted by DevilsCry

Consider the following observations-
1. Many company's reliability and A.S.S goes for a toss when they have too many dealers/service centers and sell cheap cars for masses.
2. Some cars of a company are known to be very reliable and some cars unreliable or to be having known issues. The steering rattling problem of Hyundai is an example.

Based on the above observation and taking the worst case scenario, my list is as follows (not facts but just what I feel)-
y.

Very well explained an a different perspective to look at these issues. Point well taken and appreciated

[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by Tommie

GM using the Korean Daewoo Engine in Cruze and Captiva. An american build with Korean engine.

Please feel free to add more similar examples.

For the said examples, I don't think it’s just the engine. Optra, Captiva etc. are Chevrolet badged Korean cars. And if I am correct, it’s the same case Renault Fluence and Koleos.

[justin.das]

Originally Posted by Tommie

Partially its getting true in this global economy. Here are few cases

1) Suzuki, Fiat, Tata using the Fiat Engine. Japanese and Indian car with Italian Engine
2) GM using the Korean Daewoo Engine in Cruze and Captiva. An american build with Korean engine.

Please feel free to add more similar examples.

I would see more like this happening in the coming years. The two companies that I foresee to take over such a global stance to source the products/components from the worlds best location are GM and Volkswagon.

The Engine in Cruze and Captiva is Made by V M Motori (italian engine manufacturer )50 % owned by Fiat and 50% GM Link:List of VM Motori engines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[RGK]

The main reason for MSIL and HMIL to top the list A-S-S is mainly due to the fact that both companies predominantly sold petrol cars initially which are less prone to major issues.

Tata came out with Diesel initally and had to face lot of customer dissatisfaction. MSIL became very strong in service before Swift D was introduced. Introduction of diesel cars had affected the reputation of services initially for major manufacturers.

Fiat had problems always due to their poor strategy of kicking out their earlier models in a very short of span of time. (Tour de South India in Fiat - 10 - *)

Hyundai is yet to prove their success in hatch back diesels. Toyota planned well during the launch of Qualis in the year 2000 and succeeded on its good quality followed by the great Innova.

Ford need to prove their service capabilities after doing volumes in the hatch back segments.

Better profit helps the manufacturer to tune up their service levels.

[bejoy]

While the thread intents to be a ready reckon-er for a new car buyer from owner experience, most of the responds were what they 'felt' about each cars. While the result is mostly as expected and there are no surprises. Let me post my experience here. My first 8 years of driving was on my dad's 1986 M800. No disputes here, an absolute gem of a car and it served well and never missed a beat till we sold it after 20 years. At any point of time there was no doubt in my mind about its reliability when ever I took it out, be it long drives or within city.

I graduated to a sensation called Fiat Palio in 2002. Honeymoon did not last long and the demise was eminent. Horror stories of failures and service floated and it did make a dent in the confidence in my car. I used to note down the contact numbers of each service station on the way before any long drives. But once I start driving, I'll forget about all horrors and just enjoy the drive. A** changed hands and my car got its pampering (read regular servicing) from all over. May be I am lucky, but never had any bad experience from any A**. Nearing a decade of ownership and after countless long drives to most of the Hill stations in South India, the car is an absolute gem. Never been let down by any failures. Does that qualify for a reliable car? [touchwood!]
(My long term ownership thread is in pipeline)

Last 2 years I drive my wife's i10 also on weekends. Again very reliable. No surprises.