[rrsteer]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Why is it disgraceful? I didn't understand you there. Although my apologies first. Now without sounding disgraceful please tell me how is it a minority view? Do you really think that even 50% of the Fortuner owners go off-roading? And by off-roading I mean off-roading! Not knocking up numbers on the highways, however good or bad they are. I am pretty sure ( although there is no data available) that not more then 5% of the Fortuner owners go off-roading with it and need the 4 into 4 capabilities.
.

OT - to the thread topic. Just wanted to clarify as asked above.

drmohitg: I am sorry. I misunderstood you there. I thought you meant that most Fortuner owners prefer to own it just because of its mighty pose and the impression that they are able to convey while driving it. Now, I understand what you wanted to say.

I agree on the offroading-onroading bit. I am also among those who dont go offroad at all.

[DevilsCry]

Are Toyota's really that awesome that they seem new even after 1 lac km? Take Altis for example. Costs around 12 lac, right? Is not every car at 12 lac supposed to be almost new even at 1 lac km?

The real test comes when a company makes a budget car. Look at Maruti 800. Can Toyota match 800's reliability at 800's price? I don't think so. So, Toyota's are no special and don't deserve to charge premium for barebone cars like Etios and hence not much popularity in India.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by DevilsCry

Are Toyota's really that awesome that they seem new even after 1 lac km? Take Altis for example. Costs around 12 lac, right? Is not every car at 12 lac supposed to be almost new even at 1 lac km?

The real test comes when a company makes a budget car. Look at Maruti 800. Can Toyota match 800's reliability at 800's price? I don't think so. So, Toyota's are no special and don't deserve to charge premium for barebone cars like Etios and hence not much popularity in India.

Laura costs more. See its reliability graph. The proportion of cars failing pre maturely is alarmingly higher. Same goes for most Europeans.

But hey Toyota being Toyota, doesn't mean that there are no other good cars. Yes Maruti makes some good cars at those price points. But sometimes its also because of lack of competition. What I am trying to say is until Hyundai came to our shores we were all driving Maruti's. Now Hyundai, Chevy, Honda with its brio have and will change the Indian consumers views about interior quality. Like for example everyone is hoping for the Eon to take on the Alto even though its priced higher because of the main reason that its interiors are class apart from the Alto. And once an average Indian consumer gets used to those standards of quality things will change.

[man_and_machine]

Originally Posted by vivekgk

IMO, Toyota made a bad judgement by launching the diesel version later. By the time the diesel version was launched, the Petrol had already built up a reputation as a cheaply built, leaky fuel guzzler. If the diesel model had been launched earlier, Toyota would have found customers who were willing to live with the not-so-good stuff for the economy.

And once Toyota's reputation for solid build was gone for a toss, there was no appeal to it when much more modern cars with better build were available at competitive prices. In short, they forgot that it was the quality that the brand promised, and not the brand itself, that sold cars.

Not to mention, people would rather be seen in an expensive Maruti than a cheap Toyota.

Somehow I resonate a little with your idea. Rather than being seen in a expensive maruthi I would say in a specific car, say a Swift (rather than say a Ritz).

[VeluM]

I was looking at the door beading on the Indica, which is also mounted on the body like that of the Etios and Liva. What I think people are complaining about is that the beading is not at the outer edges of the frame, hence allowing water to leak in a bit and dust and stuff to settle, causing it to look bad when the doors are opened. Workaround is to wash the car and then wipe these areas separately by opening each door.

Looks like a design oversight to me, but not necessarily poor quality. Water and dust etc doesn't get into the car, just around the edges of the frame outside the beading.

Sorry, I don't have pics to support my explanation. All are welcome to pitch in, though

[ethanhunt123]

Originally Posted by drmohitg

Laura costs more. See its reliability graph. The proportion of cars failing pre maturely is alarmingly higher. Same goes for most Europeans.

Very curious in seeing this "reliability" graph of Laura - especially the non DSG one; from which you figured out alarming rate of failure.

[jkdas]

Originally Posted by DevilsCry

The real test comes when a company makes a budget car. Look at Maruti 800. Can Toyota match 800's reliability at 800's price? I don't think so. So, Toyota's are no special and don't deserve to charge premium for barebone cars like Etios and hence not much popularity in India.

They tried right?

They give you a car with Alto spec interiors and Skoda Fabia 2010 price.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by ethanhunt123

Very curious in seeing this "reliability" graph of Laura - especially the non DSG one; from which you figured out alarming rate of failure.

Just see around the forum mate and read all those Skoda ownership threads. I wasn't just referring to the DSG failures. But you will find many other smaller but essential parts failing or being changed way before what a usual car undergoes. And yes Alarming if you see the %.

[Aroy]

What makes the Alto a best seller is the combination of
. Low initial price
. Excellent FE
. Low maintenance cost
. Relatively high resale value

Now Toyota had all this as USP in international market, but their cars were bigger. Corolla being the smallest car they had on the best seller list. Now they have tried their hand at a price point half or less, and they have apparently no clue of how to give Corolla quality at Swift prices. Given time, I think that Toyota will come around and rectify those areas causing most gripes.

Regarding long term reliability, I think it is too early to comment on the Etios/Liva. Let a couple of years pass then we will have a clearer picture.

Another point to note is that at the 6L+ segment the ownership of a vehicle is not as long as in the 3L bracket, hence if the car performs well for 3-4 years, it may sell well. Add to that the diesel power plant, an added bonus to buyers in these days of sky rocketing petrol prices.

Some one commented that Toyota has no design department. I fail to understand how they can gain the Number 1 position globally without designing their own vehicles? With modern CAD/CAM software (and some suits cost upwards of 100 million dollars), any one can start a design department. In fact all Indian automobile manufacturers have one!

[amalji]

I chose Etios and Liva Diesels ( over Dzire and Swift ) for me and my family for the following reasons

• Better Space
• Better Braking
• Better safety options at a lower price point ( ABS + Airbags )
• D-4D's proven reliability
• Better Ergonomics
• Better Visibility
• Better headroom and rear bench feel ( Swift felt like a cargo van as GTO mentioned in his review )
• Excellent driveability for my driving style and the area where I live in ( Kerala )
• Suspensions tuned for comfort ( Debatable, since the new Swift Hatch's suspension has similar characteristics as well. But, I liked the Etios' and Liva's suspensions better )

Overall functionality and practicality wins over look n feel and style. Ofcourse, swift has it's advantages in many other areas. But, the above list was more important to me.

When that came from a reliable maker like Toyota, it was a no-brainer for me. Only one thing, I was confused about was to part with the excellent Maruti Authorized service centers and "Service Masters" like Autoteam, Cochin. I'll miss them for sure. If Swift had better space and braking and ABS option for all variants, I would have definitely chosen Maruti Swift/Dzire ahead of Etios/Liva combination.


PS: Had booked both these vehicles even before the Diesel Launch. Still waiting for allotment.

[motorworks]

@drmohotg--The new swift is an all new car and it does carry over design cues of the earlier swift, which is what most successful models do. The point that I'm trying to make is that some of the newer launches look radical enough that they would look good even after 4-5 years. And that is precisely why the swift has been successful till date in India. The Etios / Liva look a little outdated in 2011 itself, so just imagine with the slew of launches that is happening these days, how they would stack up against much more modern looking cars in the coming years. Its not all about practicality these days. The logan too is a very practical car, but has failed miserably due to its plain jane looks.
A good car design has to last atleast 3-4 years and I think in this front the Etios and the liva fare poorly.

[dkaile]

I would advice Toyota to -

1. Change the centre console meters to black ones as detailed on Page no. 6 of the Yaris
2. Loose all red from the interiors and make seat covers/side trims beige or black
3. Loose all Aluminum finish on the music systems and make them full black
4. Loose aluminum finish from the steering wheel too. Make it full black or full beige.
5. Loose the lipstick red from the Hazard warning switch and make it black with red hazard emblem
6. Loose the red from the gearshift too
7. Give back all rubber beadings to the doors and windscreens.
8. Make the rear seats split 60/40 and foldable
9. Give 2 reverse lights
10. Insulate the wheel arches/bonnet and heavier carpetting for noise insulation
11. Add a centre cabin light.

Now all these changes shouldn't cost more than 10K and should be insulated inside the current price. They will get market supremacy in these segments for sure with these minor changes.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by dkaile

I would advice Toyota to -

.
.
.

Now all these changes shouldn't cost more than 10K and should be insulated inside the current price. They will get market supremacy in these segments for sure with these minor changes.

10K on 100,000 cars is quite a large sum to be absorbed. Most of the manufacturers are happy to save a few rupees, which add upto crores in long term.

[sahakar]

Exterior styling of the Liva is still passable and neutral. As we all know, its the interiors which need a lot of work.

Just for pete's sake, get the Yaris interiors and see sales boom. Even the Yaris that my uncle had in the UK around 8 years back, had a funky 3D cluster. With electronics so cheap now, its a shame they did this to the interiors.

I seriously hope Toyota is reading this forum. I want them to succeed in the small cars space in India and keep on building better cars here and give us more options.

Toyota has been what other car makers aspire for reliability not withstanding their recent troubles.

They need to up their game in India and there is no reason why they cannot match up with Suzuki and Hyundai in India.

How hard can it be?

Cheers

[reventon2010]

I have heard people rave about the toyota reliability but my personal experience has been a far cry from it.
My family owns a diesel Altis( I advised strongly against it to my dad but something about the T badge appeals greatly to a lot of 40+ indian buyers!) I mean no disrespect to anyone who owns it but to me, it is exactly the kind of car you buy if you really don't care/know much about cars and when their expectations from a car doesn't stretch beyond "something reliable to drive them about in reasonable comfort and gives decent fuel efficiency". Nothing about the car feels premium except for the PRICE and ride.

Coming back to the reliability. I had to replace the brake pads at 20000 kms and after a mere 10000 kms, i was told to replace it again, along with brake discs!
Other issues i had so far;
At 14,000kms, i had reported an engine oil issue following which the car was recalled at 20,000kms and rectified only to have a complete engine malfunction(loss of power, noise etc) 2500kms later.

At 23500kms, the oil check light was back on and was rectified.

The car has 34000kms on the odo now and i am hoping i have no more surprises in store for me.

In the last one year we have had this car, my dad almost sold it twice. But then decided to keep it for another year or so.