[.anshuman]

Both Etios and Liva feel built to price, especially the interiors. Even with the chrome garnish and some styling touches these cars look dated even from the date of launch. Toyota is hell bent on using the reputation to pass off these cars. Yes, they rate well on space and practicality(i never bothered to check the VFM factor for Etios), may be they are decently priced but do not feel like real Toyota cars. Even the 12 year old Hyundai Accent is better built and looks smarter, comes at a cheaper price point.

Originally Posted by drmohitg

[b]If you want to fly from 0-100 in 3-4 seconds lesser then the Altis, you are free to look elsewhere. But then those cars will return you a FE of 10-12.

Check out Jetta and Laura's FE figures, 20kpl on highways is very easy to achieve, City FE depends on traffic conditions in your area.

Look at the pics below, i clicked this pics yesterday at the time of tankful. This is 80%+ city usage for a 140hp 320nm Automatic car. I do not get stuck in peak hour traffic too often.


^^ 6.4liters/100kms = 15.6kpl + .3kpl(speedo error due to tire upsize)

The Altis drives perfectly in city traffic.

With the turbolag i would not call the driveability good, considering this car competes with Laura, Jetta and Cruze. In comparison to these cars, it falls considerably short in FTD factor, Altis does not have much to offer except the reliability tag(others are not exactly unreliable as the over reaction may suggest).

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Actually, there's a 3-4 month waiting list for the Etios Diesel Sedan.

Not everywhere, in some smaller towns petrol variants are available in stock and in any color you want.

[dkaile]

Originally Posted by .anshuman

With the turbolag i would not call the driveability good, considering this car competes with Laura, Jetta and Cruze. In comparison to these cars, Altis does not have much to offer except the reliability tag(others are not exactly unreliable as the over reaction may suggest.)

The Jetta is definitely a superior car to the Altis but then it come to about a 2L premium over it (model to model). Also the long term reliability of it's engine and DSG gearbox plus the service and parts costs involved still seem to be untested territory.

Not everyone is crazy about just the driveability part. Seeing our roads, civic/road sense and dusty condition, long term practicality is what Indian's are famous for...

[antz.bin]

OK just took a Liva Diesel TD. I will try to be as unbiased as possible.

First impressions:
1. Exterior looks are functional. No wow effect, but not bad either.
2. Interiors are strictly utilitarian.
3. AC vents are very hard to aim properly anywhere when on the move.
4. Why is there no ICE? Couldn't Toyota source enough music systems for all their cars?
5. The engine sounds EXACTLY like an Innova. The cabin noise is congruent to that of an Innova. If you make somebody him sit in the car blindfolded, nobody would be able to tell if they are in an Innova or a Liva/Etios Diesel. This noise is much higher than any competition vehicle you can find. I am sorry but passenger cars in this day and age should not sound like trucks.
6. Ride quality was a bit jarring. All the bumps (even road undulations) could reach the passengers. Nothing is kept out. It may aid the handling, but comfort is what most people buying in this segment will require. I mean how many would regularly take their 68hp econo-diesel commuter cars for spirited drive on the twisties?
7. The lack of rear neck/head restraints is a serious safety issue in case a car gets rear-ended. Also, necks of rear passengers can get tired on long journeys. There isn't even an option to get this rectified.
8. Even with #7, the engineers could not ensure adequate rear visibility. The car is not very easy to park, maybe as easy as the Etios, but it should have been easier given they can give better rear visibility in a hatch.

Anyways, with all its flaws, there is still a 3 month waiting period for the GD model. 4 month wait for the GD(SP). Hmm... Interesting...

[.anshuman]

Originally Posted by dkaile

Also the long term reliability of it's engine

Do you have any data to prove the 2.0 Liter CR TDI engine used all across VW, Skoda and Audi range is unreliable? How can you directly compare them when there is no data to pit both these engines directly?

When was the last time you heard the improved 6 speed DSG had issues?

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by .anshuman

Not everywhere, in some smaller towns petrol variants are available in stock and in any color you want.

Petrol I know the waiting list has come down but I was referring to the diesel as the thread is talking about the diesel.

[sachinayak]

I think SidIndica has hit the nail on the head. The market is seeking "value" and not just low "price".

Altis/Liva now face the same problem as the Nano, they are perceived as "cheap" or "budget" cars and this perception is a critical factor for people to stay away from these. Many I know would not even want to consider these given this image these cars have created.

I would personally want to see myself in a poor-man's-rich-car (Manza) than a rich-man's-poor-car (Etios).

[pgsagar]

Originally Posted by sachinayak

I would personally want to see myself in a poor-man's-rich-car (Manza) than a rich-man's-poor-car (Etios).

Very well said. Mnaza is miles ahead of Etios. Liva/Etios scream cheeeap on all aspects. This is the offering from world's number one car maker? Honda has been humbled on price front. Now it's turn of Toyota on quality front.

[rrsteer]

The value that Toyota brings on the table is practical and reliable cars and lets say also cheap to maintain cars (though I debate this). But in all cases except for their most recent launches, they also charged a premium, sometimes inexplicably (read Fortuner with a capital F).

And with their latest launches, when they thought of reducing the charged premium, they have let everyone know that they will compromise on quality. Which happily is unacceptable to a lot of folks. Because in Liva/Etios segment and unlike the Innova/Fortuner segment, there exists offerings which more than match Toyota's reliability, practicality and ease of maintenance and yet actually do offer Q class - not just on paper.

BTW, I am looking forward to sales charts of Fortuner starting Jan 2012 when I expect the XUV 5OO to thrash it left, right and center.

[avisidhu]

I don't intend to be mean or dismissive, but the fact that live and etios have not had the earth shattering success many anticipated, has come as a relief. Certainly goes to show that the indian consumer has matured and cannot be taken on a ride, "Q" concept nowithstanding.

Does not mean that two models are a flop, im sure they will sustain numbers good enough so current and prospective buyers need not worry as such. But considering I see so many new Verna's plying on the road and very few Etios (no Liva till now in fact), it does seem that the numbers are not encouraging enough. Crude way of measuring success I know

Originally Posted by sachinayak

I would personally want to see myself in a poor-man's-rich-car (Manza) than a rich-man's-poor-car (Etios).

Very well said

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by .anshuman

Check out Jetta and Laura's FE figures, 20kpl on highways is very easy to achieve, City FE depends on traffic conditions in your area.

Look at the pics below, i clicked this pics yesterday at the time of tankful. This is 80%+ city usage for a 140hp 320nm Automatic car. I do not get stuck in peak hour traffic too often.

My car goes through very very bad traffic. Most of the days it crosses the moti nagar road, tri nagar industrial area, and the ring road specially the naraina stretch during evening hours. Have you been to any of these roads recently? My dad's friend bought a Cruze LT and is getting a constant 10 kmpl. On the same routes my Innova give me 10-11, NHC gives me 10-11 and Lancer gives me 9-10 kmpl respectively. Hence I said that the FE is amazing.
Right now my car's MID shows 18.7 kmpl.

With the turbolag i would not call the driveability good, considering this car competes with Laura, Jetta and Cruze. In comparison to these cars, it falls considerably short in FTD factor, Altis does not have much to offer except the reliability tag(others are not exactly unreliable as the over reaction may suggest).

Thats what I said. It depends on how you drive the car. For my driving style its working extremely well. I haven't found myself wanting for speed in the city driving of around 1k kms I have completed. On the other hand I posted in my ownership thread how on a recent trip to Jaipur the car did cause some trouble during overtaking and you need to downshift.
So the bottomline is that this car's USP is comfort and reliability. On both accounts its serving me well. My 10k service costs me 1500 Rs, so its also very cheap to maintain. For my dad's needs its the best car.

If you want a peppy car where you can easily leave behind traffic then ofcourse you should go for the other cars in the segment. But if you drive sedately ( anyways Delhi roads don't allow you to speed much) then the Altis is a great car.

[theMAG]

While I havent seen the latest sales figures, I would think it may be somewhat premature to judge the success/failure of these cars since they're quite recently launched ?

[dkaile]

Originally Posted by .anshuman

Do you have any data to prove the 2.0 Liter CR TDI engine used all across VW, Skoda and Audi range is unreliable? How can you directly compare them when there is no data to pit both these engines directly?

When was the last time you heard the improved 6 speed DSG had issues?

I think you misunderstood me. My point was that these cars are yet to be tested 'long term' in Indian conditions which are quite different from other parts of the world. Also the cost of parts is considerably higher as per past experience with the Europeans.

Jetta is a very good car (and maybe even my next upgrade) BUT most Indian's go for practicality (which I am now past) rather than driveability as their primary concern while buying automobiles. Jetta may be a superior product than the Altis but is it more practical, is yet to be answered.

[drmohitg]

Originally Posted by dkaile

Jetta is a very good car (and maybe even my next upgrade) BUT most Indian's go for practicality (which I am now past) rather than driveability as their primary concern while buying automobiles. Jetta may be a superior product than the Altis but is it more practical, is yet to be answered.

Since I was in the market recently and had narrowed down my options to Jetta and Altis in the end, I just wanted to second your point. My dad doesn't know much about cars. He can tell a good car from a bad one but he is least bothered about features and stuff. What he wants his a fill it and forget it kind of an experience and cheap maintenance. And he was very quick to point out the cost difference in after sales. Altis 10k kms costs Rs 1500. Jetta 15k kms service costs you around 15-20k ( as told by the SA to me and confirmed by a member on the forum who owns the Jetta). Thats a huge huge difference. And also include the cost of oil top ups that you may have to do in the Jetta in the first 10k kms.

[iconic]

I think toyota has hired people from the indian film industry for their design team. What they do when you want to show a poor man, put some rags over him and paint tar over his face and keep a weird wig and beard.

The etios/liva does exactly the same. How will toyota make a cheap car? Put in some local plastics, design every part of interiors or exteriors which will inspire no one but will reserve the answers for their Salespersons.

Why are the A/C vents weird? Thats Q sir.

[RadiantKarma]

Opening song sequence of a movie is on. You're wondering why they couldn't have taken some gorgeous lead actress. Kajol simply lacks the oomph of a Sheela, or the sauciness of a Munni. She is unable to blaze the screen the way those gals could have. You're thinking of getting out. But sit on. The movie carries on. And finally, it gets over. When moving out of the hall, you realise that Kajol gradually grew upon you with her sheer expressiveness and superb acting abilities - she managed to cast a spell to leave a wonderful lingering feeling. Nobody else could have done better justice to the role! Out of the hall, you get back into the queue to buy ticket for the next show!

Rewind to the opening song sequence that has just concluded. Replace Kajol with Etios/Liva/Altis and 'you' with 'market/customer'. The movie is yet to play out. Is the accomplished actress a Kajol? Or is she some ugly vamp?!

In any case, picture abhi baaki hai mere dost?!


P.S.: Away from melodrama, coming back to the thread query, Toyota diesels haven't shaken the market, not yet. But have surely shaken up well-groomed aesthetic sensibilities of lotsa folks around here!