The Premier 118 NE thread

[e30b16]

Originally Posted by Bugatti Veyron

That is beautiful!



I've myself just acquired a 118 NE and would love to put in the round headlights, could you text or call me on (0)9786772226 as I have no access to PM as a newbie? Thanks!

Hello Bugatti Veyron,

I sent you a couple of messages from my mobile to the number you have mentioned, wondering if you got them.

Cheers !

[ilangop]

Dear Friends,
Could some one explain what the 3 way connector beside the elctric fuel pump does? Is that a pressure relief valve for the fuel entering the carburettor or else does it do something else? Please clarify me this doubt.
-Ilango

[Scarlet_Rider]

Ilango: Are you referring to something like the first picture in this post? Fuel Pump and Filter Work on the Viceroy

Probably pages 27 to 29 of this thread may have the information you need in the detailed posts by Mr. Dhabhar and Mr. Vaidya.

Regards and Keep Revving,

Rahul Waghmare.

[KkVaidya]

Originally Posted by ilangop

Dear Friends,
Could some one explain what the 3 way connector beside the elctric fuel pump does? Is that a pressure relief valve for the fuel entering the carburettor or else does it do something else? Please clarify me this doubt.
-Ilango

Hello Ilango,
The 3 way connector you are referring to is the vapour separator. One line is inlet, one is outlet & 3rd is the return line to the tank.

[ilangop]

Originally Posted by KkVaidya

Hello Ilango,
The 3 way connector you are referring to is the vapour separator. One line is inlet, one is outlet & 3rd is the return line to the tank.

Originally Posted by Scarlet_Rider

Ilango: Are you referring to something like the first picture in this post? Fuel Pump and Filter Work on the Viceroy

Probably pages 27 to 29 of this thread may have the information you need in the detailed posts by Mr. Dhabhar and Mr. Vaidya.

Regards and Keep Revving,

Rahul Waghmare.

Thanks for your reply guys. But I know the black vapor separator in the mechanical pump models. The vapor separator is mounted on the firewall pretty close to the air filter box.

The 3 way connector I am discussing is beside the electric fuel pump itself. Could you please check and confirm if this device is the vapor separator for the later NEs with electric fuel pump?
Thanks again

[KkVaidya]

Originally Posted by ilangop

Thanks for your reply guys. But I know the black vapor separator in the mechanical pump models. The vapor separator is mounted on the firewall pretty close to the air filter box.

The 3 way connector I am discussing is beside the electric fuel pump itself. Could you please check and confirm if this device is the vapor separator for the later NEs with electric fuel pump?
Thanks again

Vapour Separator was never supplied in cars with mechanical pumps. It was only there in cars equipped with the electric pump. The one you are referring to which is mounted on the firewall is not the vapour separaor - it is the charcoal canister for emission norms fitted in models after 1996.

The 3 way connector besides the pump should be the vapour separator. Again attaching the picture.

[ilangop]

Originally Posted by KkVaidya

Vapour Separator was never supplied in cars with mechanical pumps. It was only there in cars equipped with the electric pump. The one you are referring to which is mounted on the firewall is not the vapour separaor - it is the charcoal canister for emission norms fitted in models after 1996.

The 3 way connector besides the pump should be the vapour separator. Again attaching the picture.

Hi KK, Thanks for the attached picture. But my dad's previous car which was a 1991 118NE (not sure about the year) it had the mechanical pump & a vapor separator. Might be that the Mikuni carbs had the vapor separator with the mechanical pump while the Hitachi ones didn't have. I know a charcoal canister and that is not what I am talking about. The stuff I had been talking about is located underbody, close to the electric fuel pump.
@ Behram Sir, why don't you please jump in and clarify this doubt.
@ Rahul, Do you have any underbody pic of the underbody fuel plumbing of your viceroy?
Thanks guys.

[Scarlet_Rider]

Ilango: Please check page 28 of this thread for some under body pictures of the Viceroy. I need to check if I can find some more pictures but the ones posted were the best of the lot. As mentioned in my previous post, most of the info is on pages 27 to 29 of this thread. But as you mentioned, Mr. Dhabhar can put all your doubts to rest.

Regards and Keep Revving,

Rahul Waghmare.

[ilangop]

Originally Posted by Scarlet_Rider

Ilango: Please check page 28 of this thread for some under body pictures of the Viceroy. I need to check if I can find some more pictures but the ones posted were the best of the lot. As mentioned in my previous post, most of the info is on pages 27 to 29 of this thread. But as you mentioned, Mr. Dhabhar can put all your doubts to rest.

Regards and Keep Revving,

Rahul Waghmare.

OK dude, finally I found the pages. They were actually the 6 - 9 th pages. Thanks for directing me there, but still I don't see the 3 port device which is seen as a OE fitment. :(

[Potenza]

This thread is like a treasure for me. I clearly remember the day in March 1995 when my father bought his first 118 NE after various iterations of Ambassadors and Premier Padminis. This brings back old and very fond memories of the car on which i learnt how to drive, and absolutely loved the roar of its mechanical fan and the slick gearbox. We sold the car after barely two years and i remember feeling bad that we were going in for a Maruti Zen which was only 50 bhp against the 52 of the 118. Felt like a downgrade till i actually drove the Zen!

Mechanical and reliability issues aside my father and I still love this car and i am already thinking of buying one for myself and getting it restored. I guess thats the power of this forum.

I am also glad to see Dhabar here! I remember him drawing the entire suspension geometry of the Premier Padmini during an Auto Passion session at work; and I was shocked to see him do it free hand without referring to any document even for a minute. Its been years since i met him since Ive moved on but its great to catch up with him here.

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Dear Ilango - i'll call you, let's catch up in office tomorrow. I'll clarify everything to you with circuit diagram. You know I have done it! .

Dear Potenza - where did you attend my session? Please PM me, we'll catch up.

Dear all - let me clarify once again in totality. 118NE was introduced in the market in January 1987. These cars were fitted with Hitachi carburettor without fuel return line. These cars had a huge percolation issue, they used to stall in summer, particularly when climbing gradients. I tested and found the permanent solution to this issue on my test car MGQ8174.

The interim solution adapted was to use a vapor separator which was imported from Pierburg Germany and fitted on the air cleaner mounting bracket. It did not work because it can separate vapor from liquid fuel provided both are made available inside it, but in the 118NE's case, it was 100% vapor so what will it separate? Then Hitachi carburettor got replaced, Mikuni came in. Mikuni had its own fuel return system so the vapor separator was not required, so it was removed.

The final solution is as follows: 1. Fuel filter location changed from RHS of the engine compartment to RHS underfloor above the rear axle. Premier Padmini ignition coil mounting bracket was used to mount the fuel filter, center distance in both applications is 72mm, mounting angle was 15 degrees. 2. Electronic fuel pump with free delivery specification of 960cc per minute mounted RHS underfloor above the rear axle @ 15 degrees inclination to aid vapor passing through it. 3. Tee connector having inlet, outlet and return lines with 1.6mm diameter orifice located immediately after the electronic fuel pump with return line to tank. This is the part that Ilango is talking about. If this tee connector is removed, the car will not work. 4. Blanking plate introduced to block the mechanical fuel pump orifice on the cylinder block. 5. Cross pipe behind the engine and delivery pipe on the engine removed. 6. Main pipe entering the engine compartment routed to the Mikuni carburettor directly. The carburettor return circuit performs the operation of the vapor separator. 7. Exhaust system relocated from RHS to LHS to facilitate mounting of the filter and pump underfloor. That's why later model 118NE cars have two cuts in the rear sill panel, RHS used for diesel and LHS used for petrol. The part number of this sill panel was PAB300700.

Important - if you want your 118NE to not have percolation issue, you must use the above information in conjunction with whether you have Hitachi or Mikuni. For Hitachi, you can use two tee connectors or one tee connector and one vapor separator, both will do the same job. What is important is that essentially you need electronic fuel pump and two fuel return lines, you must do it properly.

Hope this clarifies.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[KkVaidya]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

That's why later model 118NE cars have two cuts in the rear sill panel, RHS used for diesel and LHS used for petrol. The part number of this sill panel was PAB300700.

Important - if you want your 118NE to not have percolation issue, you must use the above information in conjunction with whether you have Hitachi or Mikuni. For Hitachi, you can use two tee connectors or one tee connector and one vapor separator, both will do the same job. What is important is that essentially you need electronic fuel pump and two fuel return lines, you must do it properly.

Dear Behrambhai,
Thanks again for sharing such wonderful information. And it is under your guidance that my GJ010025 is free from 'vapour lock'.

Coming to Ilango's confusion, What is the difference between the Tee connector & vapour separator? I guess both are the same.

Also regarding the the two cuts on the rear sill panel, why is it that my '89 model also has cuts on both the sides when the rectification was implemented later on by you?

One last question: Why did PAL replace the Hitachi carburetor with Mikuni? Was the Hitachi imported that time?

[DHABHAR.BEHRAM]

Originally Posted by KkVaidya

Dear Behrambhai, Thanks again for sharing such wonderful information. And it is under your guidance that my GJ010025 is free from 'vapour lock'. Coming to Ilango's confusion, What is the difference between the Tee connector & vapour separator? I guess both are the same. Also regarding the the two cuts on the rear sill panel, why is it that my '89 model also has cuts on both the sides when the rectification was implemented later on by you? One last question: Why did PAL replace the Hitachi carburetor with Mikuni? Was the Hitachi imported that time?

Dear kkVaidyaji - thanks for appreciating my efforts to ensure that GJ010025 is completely free from the "vapor lock" problem, I feel nice! Both the tee connector and the vapor separator perform the same operation, the minor differences are that the vapor separator has around 20cc of fuel volume built into it so depending on its mounting position, if it is above the carburettor, it can act as a sort of dashpot in limiting condition. This is not possible in 118NE. Also, vapor separator has a ball valve which opens at a very small differential pressure, unlike the orifice which is open. So in limiting condition, this can be used as a pressure regulating device. This is also not required in 118NE. The phenomenon is too severe to be cured by such small increments. I don't know why your car has two cuts in the rear sill panel. PAL replaced the Hitachi carburettor with Mikuni carburettor because Hitachi was imported from Nissan Japan and it was very costly. At that time, UCAL fuel systems (previously Carburettors India Ltd) started manufacturing Mikuni in India for Maruti. Base instrument was same, only calibration and adaptation components were different. Inlet manifold for Hitachi and Mikuni are different due to different mounting dimensions. This is a normal development process.

Best regards,

Behram Dhabhar

[ilangop]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Tee connector having inlet, outlet and return lines with 1.6mm diameter orifice located immediately after the electronic fuel pump with return line to tank. This is the part that Ilango is talking about. If this tee connector is removed, the car will not work.

Originally Posted by KkVaidya

Coming to Ilango's confusion, What is the difference between the Tee connector & vapour separator? I guess both are the same.

Sir, thanks a lot for the clarification. I have attached a picture to ensure if I understood the principle right. Please correct me if wrong.

[KkVaidya]

Originally Posted by DHABHAR.BEHRAM

Dear kkVaidyaji - thanks for appreciating my efforts to ensure that GJ010025 is completely free from the "vapor lock" problem, I feel nice!

Dear Behrambhai,
I called you a few days back but unfortunately we could not talk. I just got the steering bushes changed & wheel alignment done. But I feel the steering has got harder although more precise. My friend who did the job says it will loosen up upon use. Is that true?
And what is the best way to replace the steering box oil. It is very hard to reach - all i can do is refill the oil with a long-neck funnel but how do I remove the old oil?