[mayankk]

Originally Posted by scopriobharath

Well, I am supporting the claim process using goons when i am a defaulter. This applies to me also if i am a defaulter.
ICICI is also to be blamed, but 75% of the blame is also on the applicant. If one cannot pay the emi why take / apply for a loan. Take a lesser amount or dont take a loan at all or do something else, but why cheat the bank ?

If i am the son of an affluent father, say with my 50,000 per month income, i can fund a bmw. My complete salary could go to the emi. If i am earning 50,000 per month, and i have a family to run, i cannot spend more than 5,000 for emi. Bank will not know what i do or how i will run. Bank just needs the emi. How you pay is immeterial to the bank.



I will still support the banks only. Indian judiciary system is so slow that it would be ages and by the time the vehicle is recovered, it would have vintage value. Kasab's case is pending with the judiciary, forget some common man's case of not paying emi for a 2 wheeler.

Imagine you are a politician. You have deposited some white money in Cheat Fund (Chit Fund) offering you 40% interest. You notice that after 3 months, the company is closed. You have lot of influence and connections. Will you wait for the Police and indian judiciary to do thier job, or would you use goons to track down the owner and beat him to hell.
When people catch a pickpocket who has robbed you, would you expect that he is taken to a police station and the court punishes him with a fine of 100/- or would you expect he is beaten black and blue.
Now just replace the "you" with bank. Answers will be evident. Not paying the money due to the bank is a form of glorified robbery / cheating only IMHO

So what are you saying?
that
a) its alright for banks to break the very law that defines their recourse.
b) treat genuine cases of default with the same violence as the chronic defaulters, whose sole purpose of the loan was to default on it, and who SHOULD havebeen, and could easily have been tapped out beforehand by the bank itself?

wow.

[adilj]

I think there is CIBIL for maintaing the credit reports for each and every person. If you default u are reported to CIBIL and your credit score decreases. Inspite of the fact that the person has a low credit rating and you give him a loan for a particular amount that is not right on the banks part.

My friend got a CC from CITI bank when he was a student and his limit was 90K. So when he defaulted on the payments they started calling and harassing him for the repayment. Agreed that he should not have taken the card in the first place but the BANK was wrong in issuing the card to him.

So the laws for lending money should be made more stringent. If that is done, than number of defaulters will be less and so resorting to GOONDA GIRI for recovering the loans will stop. This is all a circle who started it? THE BANK?INSTITUTION that gave the money.

Till the laws become more stringent I think this way of collecting money should be tolerated... And if you do not like the method than please do not default on the loan or never take a loan in the first place...

[Sarvodaya]

Originally Posted by scopriobharath

Well, I am supporting the claim process using goons when i am a defaulter. This applies to me also if i am a defaulter.
ICICI is also to be blamed, but 75% of the blame is also on the applicant. If one cannot pay the emi why take / apply for a loan. Take a lesser amount or dont take a loan at all or do something else, but why cheat the bank ?
IMHO

Sir, your ARGUMENT is baseless. Imagine a Scenario (My Case). I have taken a Loan, paying EMI regularly. One bad day, my Wife met with Accident. Broke her Leg. Was in home for three Months. Her Company terminated her job saying that they cannot give leave for three months. it took her almost 10 months to recover, another four months to get a new job. Now eight months EMI was not paid (Genuine Case with Proper Medical Records, Termination Letter, Bank Statements). Gave a written request to Bank explaining the facts. But the Bank refused to honor my request and that the entire Loan has to be paid in one shot. A few goons come regularly to my home every now then.

In my Case, I am willing to clear my dues to the Bank. I am aware of the fact that since I have taken the Loan, I have to pay. But circumstances made me to default. Now I am financially better, I am willing to repay in EMI, but not in a position to pay the entire loan in one single payment

So as per your view, if a person is in hospital / at home, goons can come, bash up and threaten with dire consequences? Banks should decide whether the person is deliberately defaulting or not and give an opportunity to genuine case to clear the dues.

[scopriobharath]

Originally Posted by mayankk

So what are you saying?
that
a) its alright for banks to break the very law that defines their recourse.
b) treat genuine cases of default with the same violence as the chronic defaulters, whose sole purpose of the loan was to default on it, and who SHOULD havebeen, and could easily have been tapped out beforehand by the bank itself?

wow.

a) its alright for banks to break the very law that defines their recourse.
Imagine you are a banker. Well, I do not say that it is good on the bank's part to use force. What other options do the bank have. Indian Judiciary and Police are so efficient that it would take 10 years for this case to be closed. Assume a bank put a case on soemone who has taken a pulsar loan and not paid 30,000. At the end of 10 years, when a judgement is passed, what value will a 2010 pulsar have or what value will 30,000/- have. Even if the judiciary asks the defaulter to pay up or surrender the vehicle, What benefit does the bank have ?

b) treat genuine cases of default with the same violence as the chronic defaulters
Defaulter is a defaulter, be it whoever. Do not take a loan if you cannot repay the same. If a thief ransoms you and with the money he funds his food / uses the money for Mafia / buys a merc :-: do you really care ? All you care is that your wallet is lighter. The same way, why should the bank care on why you defaulted. Take my example. I can get an innova's loan sanctioned today, but as i have to run my family with my salary, i cannot pay off the emi. This is the reason i am not buying an innova as of now.You must pay the emi come what may or be prepared to fore-go the security on the loan. This attidue is that of a Gentleman.

[Yeldo]

Originally Posted by hvs

For God's sake, think before going hyper critical of Supreme Court.
Just Imagine, if due to certain exigency (not financial distress) like you being away and not in access to your banker for some period, Or, there is a genuine dispute between you and the bank for overcharging inerest/levies or hidden charges, and you want them to sit & sort out the differences. your wife, kids, old parents are travelling by car, whose EMI remains unpaid due to you being away, and the recovery agent waylays them and physically throws them out of the vehicle and takes it away without even bothering to drop them at a safe place......
Then, imagine a situation where your car has been taken away by the recovery agents... you go to the bank to repay the instalments due alongwith (steep) recovery charges, but the bank refuses saying that now you have to repay the entire remaining loan amount of xxx lacs in one go within 7 to 15 days as your loan agreement has been cancelled, else youe vehicle will be sold off, irrespective of the fact that you took a loan of e.g. Rs.5 lacs for a Rs.8 lac car for 5 yrs and only 2 lacs principle was due when you defaulted in 2/3 EMIs...
Even if you somehow pay the entire balance amount & get the car back, be ready to face the horror because, most often than not, you'll find the accessories missing and the vehicle in damaged condition...courtesy recovery agents & then yard managers.


Please try to see the things in right legal perspective. Supreme Court has taken laid down the right law and saved the citizens of India from unscrupulous ways of these money mongers. And also try to read the full text of the judgments you all are criticizing.

Sir, you may very well know, no financier, including the bank you represent, initiate a recovery process suddenly and out of the blue. They try to call, then send notices, warn you, and then move into drastic steps.

And the issue of "sitting & sorting" it out, you may be knowing very well that:
a) many managers have no authority to do it;
b) if they are so authorized and do it, it would reflect poorly on their performance targets;
c) most companies (though not all) have different channels for marketing loans, doing appraisal/ verification, to collect the EMI's and to recover NPAs, thus rendering it impossible to entertain such requests.

On "exigencies", how do my other debtors treat me? If I am away, or in the hospital, does the government owned utility excuse my power/ water/ phone bill? Or the Income Tax department offer me a deferred tax payment? Then why should my creditors be asked to forget and forgive, or wait endlessly?

On "overcharging interest/levies or hidden charges", since most of the payments are done against cheques or similar methods, it is highly improbable that one doesn't know what one is ought to pay. Whatever in the contract I signed is binding, unless it is ab initio void as per law. And may I ask, how many of these "forceful recoveries" are over such disputes? Aren't they mostly over simple non- payment of EMI's?

If I owe only 2 lacs, and my vehicle is worth 8 lacs, I am entitled to the balance amount from the financier after whatever money is due to him. Whether I get it is another matter. Finance companies are greedy when it comes to such things. But remember, it happens only if I default on my EMI. It doesn't occur overnight. If I can't find enough money, I can always sell off the car before the bank gets me by the throat, am I right?

Just think, why would I throw away my 8lac car which I paid 3L form my loan for just 2L? Repay the loan, or sell it while I still can, and everyone is happy! So as a responsible family man, I should protect my family and set example to my kids by keeping my promise, and not subjecting them to the shame of being the child, spouse, or parent of a delinquent who cannot even afford the EMI of the car in which I drive them around?

Regarding the missing accessories, you are definitely right. The recovery agents have no right whatsoever to tamper with them. But as you might very well know, even vehicles taken into custody by the police for some reason or other tends to be vandalised even when kept in the station yard. It is a cultural problem. People steal from even vehicles involved in accidents while passengers are taken to hospital.

On "unscrupulous ways", isn't willful default on the money I owe to somebody else equally unscrupulous? And "money mongers" only ask for the money I borrowed from them, and the interest I agreed, right?

The court of course, said nothing wrong. But see:"...appeals are disposed of in light of the observations made hereinabove." What purpose other than bringing about chaos? What did the petitioner gain? Is this a landmark judgement by any yardstick? The court rightfully asked the banks to keep away from taking law into their own hands, and utilize the legally settled way to recourse. But what is the media reporting, and what are we discussing on this thread? It sounds more like "banks cannot seize vehicles for recovering defaulted loans", or something very similar. You get what I try to say?

[scopriobharath]

Originally Posted by Sarvodaya

Sir, your ARGUMENT is baseless. Imagine a Scenario (My Case). I have taken a Loan, paying EMI regularly. One bad day, my Wife met with Accident. Broke her Leg. Was in home for three Months. Her Company terminated her job saying that they cannot give leave for three months. it took her almost 10 months to recover, another four months to get a new job. Now eight months EMI was not paid (Genuine Case with Proper Medical Records, Termination Letter, Bank Statements). Gave a written request to Bank explaining the facts. But the Bank refused to honor my request and that the entire Loan has to be paid in one shot. A few goons come regularly to my home every now then.

In my Case, I am willing to clear my dues to the Bank. I am aware of the fact that since I have taken the Loan, I have to pay. But circumstances made me to default. Now I am financially better, I am willing to repay in EMI, but not in a position to pay the entire loan in one single payment

So as per your view, if a person is in hospital / at home, goons can come, bash up and threaten with dire consequences? Banks should decide whether the person is deliberately defaulting or not and give an opportunity to genuine case to clear the dues.

Firstly I am so sorry to hear about the incident that happened to your wife. I hope she is doing good now.

The consideration that you have mentioned exists in US. If you are a defaulter, there is a clause which can prevent you from getting a bad credit rating. If they start considering defaulters in india, almost everyone will start applying for waive off by giving some excuse or the other. This is the reason banks dont tolerate defaulters. (Geniune cases like yours exempted).

Imagine the corollary of this issue. If your company could not pay you salary for 6 months for any reason, be it the CEO mismanged the funds / company did not do well / new business was not acquired etc - do you care ? all you care is salary was not credited.

In india the average joe looks to cheat and make a fast buck. In such a country, banks have to be rigid to collect money. But because of that so called cheaters, we honest citizens have to bear the brunt. This is similar to Petrol/diesel scenario. A two wheeler rider is subsidizing the diesel for a Merc/BMW/Audi

[scopriobharath]

Originally Posted by Yeldo

The court rightfully asked the banks to keep away from taking law into their own hands, and utilize the legally settled way to recourse. But what is the media reporting, and what are we discussing on this thread? It sounds more like "banks cannot seize vehicles for recovering defaulted loans", or something very similar. You get what I try to say?

With the turnaround time that court offers, the bank would go bankrupt. If indian judiciary was as efficient and fast as the judiciary in the far west, People would jolly-well go to the judiciary only. If the judiciary was fast and just, banks will take this route. As judiciary is slow, banks take law into their own hands.

[hvs]

Originally Posted by scopriobharath

With the turnaround time that court offers, the bank would go bankrupt. If indian judiciary was as efficient and fast as the judiciary in the far west, People would jolly-well go to the judiciary only. If the judiciary was fast and just, banks will take this route. As judiciary is slow, banks take law into their own hands.

Just tell me why only private banks indulge in such practices...
And do they lead the market...NO.
Its still the nationalized banks who go by the book, not only while recovering but also while lending...
Tell me how many have gone bankrupt..

[mayankk]

So,tomorrow if my car gets broken into,I should get a batsuit and take to the streets?
Cos I know that the judiciary is slow and i want order ,what,yesterday ?

I don't know whether what is being professed is funny,or scary.

[sdp1975]

Originally Posted by scopriobharath

I will still support the banks only. Indian judiciary system is so slow that it would be ages and by the time the vehicle is recovered, it would have vintage value. Kasab's case is pending with the judiciary, forget some common man's case of not paying emi for a 2 wheeler.

Imagine you are a politician. You have deposited some white money in Cheat Fund (Chit Fund) offering you 40% interest. You notice that after 3 months, the company is closed. You have lot of influence and connections. Will you wait for the Police and indian judiciary to do thier job, or would you use goons to track down the owner and beat him to hell.
When people catch a pickpocket who has robbed you, would you expect that he is taken to a police station and the court punishes him with a fine of 100/- or would you expect he is beaten black and blue.
Now just replace the "you" with bank. Answers will be evident. Not paying the money due to the bank is a form of glorified robbery / cheating only IMHO

So there's no need of the administrative/police and the legal/judicial system in India according to you ? And generally speaking folks should go about doing whatever they think is right ( banks included )?

[hvs]

Originally Posted by Sarvodaya

Sir, your ARGUMENT is baseless. Imagine a Scenario (My Case). I have taken a Loan, paying EMI regularly. One bad day, my Wife met with Accident. Broke her Leg. Was in home for three Months. Her Company terminated her job saying that they cannot give leave for three months. it took her almost 10 months to recover, another four months to get a new job. Now eight months EMI was not paid (Genuine Case with Proper Medical Records, Termination Letter, Bank Statements). Gave a written request to Bank explaining the facts. But the Bank refused to honor my request and that the entire Loan has to be paid in one shot. A few goons come regularly to my home every now then.

In my Case, I am willing to clear my dues to the Bank. I am aware of the fact that since I have taken the Loan, I have to pay. But circumstances made me to default. Now I am financially better, I am willing to repay in EMI, but not in a position to pay the entire loan in one single payment

So as per your view, if a person is in hospital / at home, goons can come, bash up and threaten with dire consequences? Banks should decide whether the person is deliberately defaulting or not and give an opportunity to genuine case to clear the dues.

I wonder why bank is not ready to reschedule & regularize your loan.
You should approach Consumer Forum of your District with the plea that you are ready & willing to deposit the EMIs due but the bank isn't budging.
I'm sure, once the Consumer Forum summons are received by the bank, they'll come to senses. If they try anything silly, you have got the Supreme Court rulings with you & don't think twice to lodge an FIR with police. But don't ever resort to such arm-twisting to avoid your liability thereafter, thereby showing respect to the law & propriety, being a responsible citizen

[raul]

I don't see whats the problem here. Vehicle loans is a highly profitable business and like all businesses there is a risk. Its the banks job to manage the risk and business lawfully.

The supreme court is not asking them to not seek repossession, only do it by lawful means. What's wrong with that? Slow courts cannot be an excuse to resort to illegal methods, that will be a justification for everyone doing their own thing.

My ancestral home has been forcefully occupied by 'party workers' in a communist ruled state and the process is ongoing in courts for the last 15 years, there are thousands of examples where the loss is more than just financial because of our court system. If there is a problem in the process fix that. Why should banks only get a free pass to sidestep the law?

There must have been some cases of the court seeing high handedness on the banks part that the court feels the need to pass this order and rein them in to operate within the bounds of the law. On the contrary in our system and slow courts process, often because of time, influence and resources its the companies rather than individual that prevail and benefit.

[Yeldo]

Originally Posted by Sarvodaya

Her Company terminated her job saying that they cannot give leave for three months. it took her almost 10 months to recover, another four months to get a new job.

A few goons come regularly to my home every now then.

In my Case, I am willing to clear my dues to the Bank. I am aware of the fact that since I have taken the Loan, I have to pay. But circumstances made me to default. Now I am financially better, I am willing to repay in EMI, but not in a position to pay the entire loan in one single payment

So as per your view, if a person is in hospital / at home, goons can come, bash up and threaten with dire consequences?

Very sorry to learn about your misfortune, and happy to hear she has recovered.

You should have taken the issue of the goons to the police. It is highly unethical and against all established laws for a creditor to harass a debtor in such a way. If the state you live in has a Money Lending Act, there should be provisions in it, unless the Act exempts Banks of Financial Institutions from its purview. Even if your bank is exempt, there is always the police who should act on such things.

I don't know about your case, but most car loans have no provisions for restructuring your debt or accepting deferred EMIs. Read your contract. If it says nothing, you will hardly get any leeway from the financier or the courts. The problem is the prejudice (not without reason, I admit) that such leniency wouldn't benefit honest people, but would be exploited by unscrupulous elements.

Finally, how inconsiderate it was for your spouse's company to terminate her for being involved in an accident? If they did that to her, who worked for them, and made profits for them, what leniency can you expect from a Shylock?

GTO, thanks for your first post, and the link, I think this thread has now become a discussion on Unethical Lending & Irresponsible Borrowing!

[samyakmodi]

I think this rule should be changed.

if a vehicle's EMI hasn't been paid for a month, the vehicle should be confiscated, and the borrowers details should be circulated amongst all the banks.
after the second month's default they should start closing all the accounts the borrower has in any bank.

if this is not done, then basically all the goondas and mawalis (the usual roadside politician in making) around would start taking up loans on cars which they do not need and will end up not paying for it without the threat of the car being confiscated.

this would just lead to higher rate of interests for all + extreme strict guidelines for giving a loan.
mind you - it's not the politicians and goondas who need a loan to buy a car. it's the common man who would end up paying for this kind of a stupid rule.

and in no way i am supporting the banks to use goons to recover money. there are other ways too.
1. keep a spare key with the bank. so if the vehicle's payment is not made - simply send someone to drive it off.
2. request the owner - if he doesn't listen - then involve the police. but police can not be involved each time (considering they would be busy catching the murderers and all and not petty thieves, and also for all we know they would be involved with these scams too) so the supreme court should allow some particular security agencies which can help in retrieving the vehicle if the defaulter is using muscle to stop the confiscation.

[samyakmodi]

Originally Posted by Sarvodaya

Sir, your ARGUMENT is baseless. Imagine a Scenario (My Case). I have taken a Loan, paying EMI regularly. One bad day, my Wife met with Accident. Broke her Leg. Was in home for three Months. Her Company terminated her job saying that they cannot give leave for three months. it took her almost 10 months to recover, another four months to get a new job. Now eight months EMI was not paid (Genuine Case with Proper Medical Records, Termination Letter, Bank Statements). Gave a written request to Bank explaining the facts. But the Bank refused to honor my request and that the entire Loan has to be paid in one shot. A few goons come regularly to my home every now then.

In my Case, I am willing to clear my dues to the Bank. I am aware of the fact that since I have taken the Loan, I have to pay. But circumstances made me to default. Now I am financially better, I am willing to repay in EMI, but not in a position to pay the entire loan in one single payment

So as per your view, if a person is in hospital / at home, goons can come, bash up and threaten with dire consequences? Banks should decide whether the person is deliberately defaulting or not and give an opportunity to genuine case to clear the dues.

did the bank not give you any soft call OR notice OR anything??
if they did not - then it's wrong on their part to send goons straight away.

but if they did, and still you didn't pay, then you yourself should have taken the vehicle to the bank, spoken to some senior manager there, and request them to defer the payment and as a a collateral deposit your vehicle to them.

please do accept my sincere apologies everyone who feels i am being too harsh here - with all due respect why take things that you can not afford in the first place?
you can't afford it at one shot - that's the reason you take up a loan. then you can't afford to pay the emi - that's when the bank needs to take a tough stand. on what grounds are you protesting?

i read somewhere in this thread about some guy getting a credit limit of 90k something. well i do agree that the bank should have been careful in giving the limit to the guy. but isn't it our duty too to be careful while spending money and to know what we can afford and what we can't?
if we don't understand this small thing - then either we shouldn't take up loans OR if we do then be prepared to be harrowed everytime.

forget banks. what will you do if someone borrows X amount from you, promising to return it to you in installments and then after a few months stop paying? would you be as nice to them after repeated reminders? what will you do if they stop responding to your calls? would you not go and visit them? what will you do if they threaten you? would you not take some muscle along with you to put them straight??

we all are ready to do it all, but not ready to accept if the same is done to us OR our family members. and please don't give me a guilt trip of family's safety and all. one should think about all this BEFORE spending the money OR taking the loan.

i might be going a bit too off topic here - but i'll say it again - if you can't afford it, don't think of buying it. buy it only when you are sure you can afford it.