So, why don't you buy an Automatic?

Thad E Ginathom · 10th June 2015, 01:17

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan

Honestly, I am one of those who believes in manual transmissions. I don't know about everyone else, but all I can say to you after reading your snide comment, is that if you have never driven on a twisty road, rev-matched down from 3rd to 2nd and used a manual transmission and throttle inputs to dictate weight transfer to allow you to carve a corner in the swiftest most smoothest manner possible while at the same time being able to experience some high g forces, then I'm sorry but you may never get the point. It really does allow you to dance on the limits of traction unlike any automatic car can. Supercars with advanced electronic systems and automated dampers aside.

I do see the convenience in automatics and that doesn't lead me to demand everyone to hire a chauffeur. I am not against you amassing a garage filled with automatics for that matter. Instead of sitting at your computer coming up with smart-ass comments, the more relevant question would be to ask how many of us here, have actually driven a car quick enough to appreciate MT? I am not talking about taking your car to the O.R.R. to test its top speed after buying it, I am talking about track experience and training that allows you to test your car's limits especially when it comes to attacking corners or any other deviations the path takes on an XYZ axis. If you are a true enthusiast and you can't appreciate the joy of a manual transmission under certain circumstances merely because you haven't been able to experience it or perhaps was just too blind towards it, then I pity you.

You talk about some rather extreme driving, even track driving, "in certain circumstances" but also as if you are talking about every-day driving, in whatever sort of car.

On a technical point, I don't agree at all that a powerful car makes one appreciate manual transmission. The less powerful, the more you need to work the gears: the more powerful, then the less you do.

SchumiFan · 10th June 2015, 08:35

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

You talk about some rather extreme driving, even track driving, "in certain circumstances" but also as if you are talking about every-day driving, in whatever sort of car.

On a technical point, I don't agree at all that a powerful car makes one appreciate manual transmission. The less powerful, the more you need to work the gears: the more powerful, then the less you do.

I think for all the control a manual offers, the new gearboxes with Tiptronic feature do the same. The ability to select the required gear without the need for the clutch.

civic-sense · 10th June 2015, 10:06

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Originally Posted by IshaanIan

I completely agree with you. As I said, I have no qualms against those who choose to own an automatic. I would not mind an automatic either if I could afford loads of cars and spare a couple for dedicated city use. Not at all calling the invention of the automatic transmission useless because I can perfectly understand its advantages nor am I arguing that automatics are not well suited to the vast majority of the population. However, I said, if being an enthusiast, one cannot also appreciate a manual, then it is simply sad. I had quoted someone whose post served no other purpose than to belittle the comments others had made about the level of control a manual gearbox offers. This I found to be really ridiculous and highly ignorant. It is like me quoting all the AT fans and telling them to go one step ahead for convenience and ease of use by hiring a chauffeur. Sorry if I am the only one who was offended by alpha1's comment.

It ain't no religion to get offended. That comment, at the worst is a joke. I see it as an attempt to expose the hollowness of the "more control" argument. It is worth wondering what level of control is important to us. For example, the steering systems that provide the most feedback are the manual steerings. Then comes the hydraulic ones. But the industry is increasingly trashing both the manual and hydraulic steerings in favour of EPS, which is cheaper and more practical.

Similarly, automatic transmissions make better sense in Indian conditions, and as far as "better control" is concerned, in our conditions, you would hardly miss anything.

honeybee · 10th June 2015, 11:58

Maybe this is asking for too much, but can there be a system where a fully manual transmission could be turned into an AMT sort? I mean I could use the clutch with My Left Foot all the while as I would, but when the going got a little tougher, I could use a button on the gear shifter to have the clutch automatically operated while I just shift the lever. I could rest my left foot in stop and go traffic, but still be able to use it on open roads.

I remember back when I had bought my first car, a used M800 5 speed MPFI, the Spectra Motors workshop at Malad offered a fitment of a clutchless transmission - it used something similar to what the AMT uses, but I don't think it removed the clutch pedal.

Regarding control, some of us like to have more control over when to upshift or downshift, while some of us would find it too much and let the car decide this matter. Just two different breeds, that's all. No need to offend or take offence.

Looking at the poll options it looks the majority simply like the MT!

Thad E Ginathom · 10th June 2015, 13:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by honeybee

Maybe this is asking for too much, but can there be a system where a fully manual transmission could be turned into an AMT sort? I mean I could use the clutch with My Left Foot all the while as I would, but when the going got a little tougher, I could use a button on the gear shifter to have the clutch automatically operated while I just shift the lever. I could rest my left foot in stop and go traffic, but still be able to use it on open roads.

I was told, years, if not decades, ago, that London buses have such a system: the gear selector is a small knob by the steering wheel. I don't have any more information.

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I remember back when I had bought my first car, a used M800 5 speed MPFI, the Spectra Motors workshop at Malad offered a fitment of a clutchless transmission - it used something similar to what the AMT uses, but I don't think it removed the clutch pedal.

I mentioned that I have tended to use AT as a clutchless manual. It has its limits, though: even though you have selected a gear, the gear box will not allow either over-reving or stalling.

I've driven auto cars that are supposed to learn your driving style, but only hire cars, so not long enough to really get the experience. I've not driven any of the latest generation, OTG (wait, that's USB for phones.... what is the abbreviation?

), paddle shifts, etc.
If Mr Macho-Brrm-Brrm-Man (he made a whole career of it) Clarkson can say that auto can be just as fast and just as exciting, I, for one, am not arguing with that. And hey, isn't that how F1-racing-car drivers do it?

Quote:

Regarding control, some of us like to have more control over when to upshift or downshift, while some of us would find it too much and let the car decide this matter. Just two different breeds, that's all. No need to offend or take offence.

There is an extent to which that is just ego. One suspects that those who write about auto boxes as if they should be banned are probably in that camp. On the other hand, who is to draw the line between ego and pleasure? Not me!

Whatever type of car one drives, especially if one happens to live, and need to drive in, the more physically challenging environments, one develops the skills and techniques to control that car --- and the pleasure and satisfaction of having done so.

narayans80 · 10th June 2015, 15:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by honeybee

Maybe this is asking for too much, but can there be a system where a fully manual transmission could be turned into an AMT sort? I mean I could use the clutch with My Left Foot all the while as I would, but when the going got a little tougher, I could use a button on the gear shifter to have the clutch automatically operated while I just shift the lever. I could rest my left foot in stop and go traffic, but still be able to use it on open roads.

Did you happened to read this ECM in Swift posted a few days back?

Speed Pujari · 10th June 2015, 15:35

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Originally Posted by VeluM

An A/T would definitely have made life easier, but sometimes one doesn't want that. It isn't so much the control but the involvement that draws some drivers to M/Ts over A/Ts, in my opinion.

This is rightly said. Since I drive a turbo petrol so theoretically I fall into enthusiast segment

. While I was purchasing my car I had enough budget to afford an AT, but that sense of enthusiasm and control made me buy the MT. Plus I did not have much experience of driving a 'good' AT back in those days.
Come today, I have a 99.9% inclination towards an AT. Not only because I have developed a weak knee quad but also since by time MT has become frustrating for me. Once your car starts getting older, the feel of wear and tear is disturbing. This is especially felt while changing gears and pressing clutch pedals.

The only issue is, there is no convincing and reliable AT available in market even today. Under 15 Lakhs its either the DSG(vento, rapid), or the 1.2 petrols, or the boats i.e. its either a compromise (read demotion from current car) or face reliability issues.
I also upped my budget to get a used 4x2 fortuner AT, but 25 lakhs for a used car would have put me into 'I am an idiot' category.

JediKnight · 10th June 2015, 17:56

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Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

But the world has moved on. It is over ten years since I watched Clarkson reporting that he could not beat the auto (I think it was an Audi; maybe early DSG; memory fails) acceleration with manual gear change; it gave better figures every time.

Maybe a robot will drive way better than any any human being. By your criterion why not remove the driver as well and move to driver-less cars. When you call yourself an enthusiast you do certain things just for pleasure. That is what distinguishes you from the "commuter". There is nothing wrong in being a commuter. An enthusiast is not just looking for the most optimal way to go from point A to point B. For that we will have a bubble soon from Google.

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Originally Posted by civic-sense

.. honestly, in a country like ours, we don't have the resources (money, road, traffic etc) for people like us to be extreme-enthusiasts every minute we spend at the wheel. People who drive automatics are enthusiasts enough.

In our country we rarely have true enthusiast. We have plenty of pseudo enthusiasts."Enthusiastic buyers" is the correct term for them. Believe me the average Joe who gets an AT is just looking for the convience it offers and nothing else.

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Originally Posted by Santoshbhat

It will need a few years for word of mouth recommendations to spread in our social circles with more and more people discovering the ease of driving AT cars. I see AT cars dominating our personal car market in a few years, with MT cars depending on the taxi business. MT cars vanished from the 30L + segment long back. Its only a matter of time before it happens across the board.

You look like an AT evangelist. It is sad that you cannot buy a so called "premium" vehicle with MT. But things seem to be changing. Audi q3 Mt does decent numbers. There is news of Audi A4/A6/Jag ftype with MT. There is a certain Porche availble now with a MT.

Santoshbhat · 10th June 2015, 21:38

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Originally Posted by JediKnight

You look like an AT evangelist. It is sad that you cannot buy a so called "premium" vehicle with MT. But things seem to be changing. Audi q3 Mt does decent numbers. There is news of Audi A4/A6/Jag ftype with MT. There is a certain Porche availble now with a MT.

I wonder what I am doing driving nearly 2000 kms a month in my modified Laura TSI/VRS with a sweet 6 speed manual if I come across as an AT evangelist

I just made a prediction as to how our market would evolve. As a buyer I would love to have to option of buying AT or MT version of any car. Because of market preferences we hardly have the MT option in the premium segment. Once the lower segments start embracing ATs, we may well see the same phenomenon repeating here also, is what I meant to say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediKnight

In our country we rarely have true enthusiast. We have plenty of pseudo enthusiasts."Enthusiastic buyers" is the correct term for them. Believe me the average Joe who gets an AT is just looking for the convience it offers and nothing else.

The average Joe who buys an MT is also buying the car for convenience of having a car. 99% of car buyers anywhere in the world buy a car because they need it. How many can afford hobbies like collecting super cars? Most road cars serve the purpose of transportation. Its just that some of us derive pleasure in driving and maintaining them. If an AT car can deliver that pleasure to them, why not!

varunanb · 10th June 2015, 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediKnight

In our country we rarely have true enthusiast. We have plenty of pseudo enthusiasts."Enthusiastic buyers" is the correct term for them. Believe me the average Joe who gets an AT is just looking for the convience it offers and nothing else.

I did not buy an A/T only for the convenience but for the unique experience of using a Paddle Shifter, which at that time was used in F1 and in expensive cars. I do know the auto box in my car is not designed to handle great acceleration or speeds. But still the satisfaction I get in getting the best out of the current setup. This makes me an enthusiast too.

Just driving insane speed is not being enthusiast. In a country where the road infrastructure allows a max speed of 80 or 100 Km/hr speeds above a certain threshold is just being foolish. You do not know when a cow, dog or a two legged dog strays into your path. Even during that situation all I have to do is just press brake. In case of a M/T i have to press the brake, then clutch, if I do the opposite or do not engage clutch, the vehicle might go out of control, damage itself and the passengers. Auto box is also safer in such situations.

In fact an Auto box has made me a better and a mature driver on road. I do know the capabilities of my machine and plan any maneuver in advance, no last minute downshifts or sudden lane changes. Im more relaxed when in wheel, able to feel and enjoy the steering, planned gear shifts and most importantly the in car conversations has improved without worrying to change gear.

Also, there were few comments about a M/T will give you control of vehicle. Try taking a sharp right turn while changing gears. Atleast for me I lose control doing this maneuver.

The modern generation Auto boxes gives convenience and also the desired performance. One just have to be open and willing to adopt.

I do take my fathers Figo out sometimes and enjoy driving a stick. But I prefer the auto box in my Civic. This is just my opinion.

Thad E Ginathom · 10th June 2015, 22:54

I'm just reminding myslef that the thread title is So, why don't you buy an Automatic?

Which means that any answer, if it is that person's answer, whether we agree with it or not, can only be the right answer. It's why they didn't buy one!

pgsagar · 10th June 2015, 23:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

...... is that if you have never driven on a twisty road, rev-matched down from 3rd to 2nd and used a manual transmission and throttle inputs to dictate weight transfer to allow you to carve a corner in the swiftest most smoothest manner possible while at the same time being able to experience some high g forces.....

Wow! That sounds fun but is there really such a road in India where you get to do that? I doubt. Even if there is and you do, you are more than certain to get into serious trouble, what with all the nasty surprises our roads throw up. And not to speak of you being labelled a rash driver and getting dirty looks in the least, to hearing some unpalatable comments from other road users. So we need to bottle up that enthusiast in us and be part of the crawling crowd, chugging along at 30-40 kph average speed.

If you meant all this for track then I agree with you but then you have got to be a real serious enthusiast to take time away for track and also spare a lot of amount for it. Very few of us have this. So we make do with whatever pleasure we get driving to and back from work. And from the weekend trips.

honeybee · 11th June 2015, 05:20

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