[condor]

thehighwayman : - Improved FE in AT cars.The Jazz is one example where the AT is already more fuel efficient than the MT

Can you provide details of this ?

[Holyghost]

Originally Posted by JediKnight

Realistically what is the quality of an AT can one get under 8L in India where most of the market is concentrated. When people say that modern AT as good as a MT they are invariably thinking of high end auto boxes. You are not going to get a Prosche PDK in your Maruti. Most likely an awkward AMT. With stricter safety norms coming into place soon in India (good thing), basic cost of the car is going to go even higher. I am not talking about the cost of an ABS or an airbag. But the structural reinforcements that have to be done to the car which cost money. This implies to meet the price point manufacturers will have use a very basic AT in the volume segment. Many wrongly assume that India will go the US way. It may not. Both markets are fundamentally very different. Also the growing B-town/rural market is ignored. This is the market which makes the Bolero the bestselling SUV in the country. I don't thing that these guys care too much about an AT.
.

You have summarised my thought in a better way. It is the lack of good AT in our volume market. The other point I was trying to say was the reasons people say for not buying an AT; mostly a denial of the real facts. The only real issue that prevails in our market is the affordability and maintenance cost, and it will be like that atleast untill the next cheaper AT technology is invented (AMT is a good start, but long way to go). I feel it will be electric cars that will be popular by then.

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by condor

Can you provide details of this ?

Here are some links, most of than 2 years old
http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/...ck-shifts.html
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/08/18/g...better-fuel-e/
http://ecomodder.com/forum/showthrea...cvt-27432.html
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...c_transmission

Excepting the dual clutch system, most automatic gearboxes are less efficient than the manual box. BUT with electronic control and 7 or more gears, an AT with electronics is generally smarter than a human driver hence gear changes are made at more appropriate time, there by reducing fuel consumption. This is most evident in a stop and go traffic, where a human driver will desist from constantly changing gears (to remain at the optimum RPM), while the AT does so effortlessly.

I had read an article that barring a few racing drivers in their prime, an AT not only accelerates faster in a sports car, but returns much better FE. That is why the modern trend is to move away from MT in high end high power cars

Here is a link to Jagual "F Type" specifications. The manual version is slower than Auto version
http://www.jaguarusa.com/all-models/...ons/index.html

some more
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/...w/45969132.cms

[condor]

Aroy : Excepting the dual clutch system, most automatic gearboxes are less efficient than the manual box. BUT with electronic control and 7 or more gears, an AT with electronics is generally smarter than a human driver hence gear changes are made at more appropriate time, there by reducing fuel consumption.

So is the comparison between a 5-speed manual and a 7-speed auto, and in some cases, dual clutch ?

[Aroy]

Originally Posted by condor

So is the comparison between a 5-speed manual and a 7-speed auto, and in some cases, dual clutch ?

Yes, and in the end AT gives much better FE for an average driver.

[StarrySky]

My friend and I went on a road-trip together (~850km) in comparable MT and AT cars. He was driving his Skoda Octavia 1.6TDI sedan (6-speed MT) and I was driving my Skoda Octavia 1.6TDI estate (7-speed DSG). At the end of the trip, the FE calculated by tankful-tankful method was 23.8 for his car and 21.7 for mine.

Other factors:
- I used AC for only 50% of the time and he used it always during the trip
- As per techical specifications, my car is about 60kg heavier than his

I guess AT still has some way to go before catching up with MT on the FE front, even with an advanced DSG and 7 forward gears.

[Thad E Ginathom]

People who want to have "fun" with a manual gear change are the last ones that should be talking about fuel efficiency.

Of course, there are many drivers on the road trying, not for maximum acceleration between one signal and the next, but really to use gears skilfully, to be, as nearly as possible, in the "right" gear all the time. The definition of "right," in that context is that which gives proper control over the vehicle in the current moment and allowing for contingencies. It will seldom include heavy revving (or breaking) and will probably enhance fuel efficiency.

I could almost say that good driving is boring!

So hey, let the auto gearbox take the boredom

[shankar.balan]

As I get older (and lazier) I feel the need for an auto transmission.
I drive AutoTransmissions regularly abroad.
The next car I buy in India, I think, will be an AT for sure.
But the trouble is that I love the Yeti and unfortunately it is not yet available in AT.
If I change my Yeti I will probably consider another similar car, but with an AT.

[pgsagar]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

People who want to have "fun" with a manual gear change are the last ones that should be talking about fuel efficiency.

Of course, there are many drivers on the road trying, not for maximum acceleration between one signal and the next, but really to use gears skilfully, to be, as nearly as possible, in the "right" gear all the time. The definition of "right," in that context is that which gives proper control over the vehicle in the current moment and allowing for contingencies. It will seldom include heavy revving (or breaking) and will probably enhance fuel efficiency.

I could almost say that good driving is boring!

So hey, let the auto gearbox take the boredom

An excellent post in a long while on teambhp. Isn't it paradoxical? I mean the MT fans often say MT returns better FE. And fun, too. I once remember reading about Fiesta D which achieved 30+ KPL during some kind of frugality test. But how did they achieve it? Turn off the aircon, pussyfoot the go pedal and shift early. Is that fun?

[humbleroadster]

Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom

People who want to have "fun" with a manual gear change are the last ones that should be talking about fuel efficiency

+1 for that sir!
I have been with the polo gt TSI for the last 6 months. It's just great. And I'm very happy with it.

Till very recent times, i had the ford fusion 1.6 duratec petrol (read MT), that I drove for the last 8 years. That was "fun" right there. It wasn't a fast machine. Completely different cars, both of them. But it was what brought a smile to my face! The response that the fusion gave me was something different. I'm no where near to being an expert, and I'm not able to articulate my thoughts properly here.

Staying in Goa, I drive in negligible conditions of what is referred to as bumper to bumper traffic. So I don't think I'm in the right place to comment on convenience, but then if VW would've come out with an MT for the tsi, i wonder if I would have opted for that! Although I do make good use of the tiptronic. That's one thing I love playing around with!

[Thad E Ginathom]

Sounds to me like you are getting close to the ideal auto-box experience: the best of both worlds!

[akrish01]

Originally Posted by JediKnight

Your conclusion that AT is safer for the general masses is specious.
A bad ignorant driver will be unsafe with an MT and even more so with an AT.
He will be even more ignorant about the car since the transmission in abstracted
to him.

I know a guy driving an AMT hitting guys behind him on ramp since
he thought an AT wont roll back. We have ATs like the one in the Toyota
fortuner which start coasting as soon as the driver lifts his/her foot from
the acceleartor. Hence providing no engine braking. You drive an AT fortuner
down a slope for a long time and you have serious chance of brake fade/failure
due to over heating. In the new AMTs introduced by tata/maruti you press
the accelerator down hard, nothing happens for a few seconds till the AMT wakes.
This can be very dangerous in certain situations

Aren't first & second gears provided in an AT for such situations? U can shift to second gears while descending on hilly terrain

[outdoorlover]

Originally Posted by Holyghost

Even I used to whine and cry about AT cars not having the human connect, not fit for a driving enthusiast and almost all the reasons mentioned in this thread.
But the real underlying fact and which I never liked to admit was
1. I was concerned about fuel efficiency
2. Concerned about maintenance
3. Didn't have a long term experience driving good ATs nor could I afford a good AT.

1 and 2 still stays, but point 3 changed after I drove AT cars for few months when I was out of country. Until then I was driving a 2.2 vtt Safari. Once I was back and started driving my Safari again, i realised what an AT is.
I was in denial until then. So now I drive a Cruze AT and looking forward to buy an SUV with a 'good AT' with 4x4.

I see a lot of people who is living in such denial around me. 99% will change their perception once they have a long term experience with AT cars. Just driving a friends or relatives AT car occasionally will not help. The rest 1% are the true enthusiasts who have frequent access to a race track and skilled to shift gears as fast as a modern AT. But even those 1% enthusiasts who can afford a good AT would still be driving that for city use.

I think your post pretty much summarises the majority who are in a denial over what an AT truly is. I had been driving ATs (cars +. SUV) abroad fit the past 10+ years and going back to MTs after returning to India for good in 2013 world have been going back to the stone ages. I never have had any issue on my ATs ever.

For people who choose to be in denial mode, I am reminded of a saying "you don't know what you don't know".

[hajaar]

I can live with the perception of lower FE and driving pleasure, if it means more driving comfort. I wouldn't change my decision to buy an AT CRV simply because it is a lot more pleasant to drive in the city then my MT Civic.

[vasudeva]

Originally Posted by shankar.balan

As I get older (and lazier) I feel the need for an auto transmission.
I drive AutoTransmissions regularly abroad.
The next car I buy in India, I think, will be an AT for sure.

Dear Mr. Balan

I have always liked your sober and decent posts. You said older (and lazier). I would say (I am 48+ so I should know) AT becomes even more sensible (not that it was less considering our congested and unpredictable road/driving conditions)as you get more sedate on the road, your priorities change, income increases, and leg muscles are not the same as of a 25-30 year old.

Drive in stop and go traffic of Indian roads on a manual and AT and see the difference. That for me (and less fatigue) is the main reason I bought one AT in 2007 and another one yesterday. I bought an AT in 2007 when my monthly driving was 1800/pm. It is now 800-900/pm for 2 cars and so FE is even less of a factor now. Now both the cars in our ownership are AT and I plan now to keep it that way.