[noopster]

Originally Posted by pgsagar

I'm not sure what you mean here by economic decision? You mean AT is cheaper than MT? I thought it is other way around. Would you mind shedding some light for the benefit of all? In any case, AT is not cheaper than MT in India at least. So, not sure what prevented Porsche from launching MT in India and pricing it a little lower.

I didn't mean it quite that way. MTs have lower demand in premium segment and the cost of offering that option may not be viable to cater to the small percentage of buyers, is what I meant. Of course this is all perception-driven; I doubt any carmaker has done any solid research on it.

What exactly is your argument? That ATs have merit only because some premium carmakers- none of whose cars most of us here would be able to afford in our lifetimes- offer them as mandatory? I'd rather rely on my own experience.

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by noopster

What exactly is your argument? That ATs have merit only because some premium carmakers- none of whose cars most of us here would be able to afford in our lifetimes- offer them as mandatory? I'd rather rely on my own experience.

This is my take. At the lower end a lac or two make a lot of difference with respect to affordability. But at 20+ lacs, people would rather spend that extra couple and get an AT. At the lower end people predominantly go for MT because a lac is a fortune.

[IshaanIan]

To all those arguing that because people like to buy automatic in premium cars, it is better in every sense, please also realize that popular cars like the Jaguar F-Type, came only with an 8 speed automatic transmission at launch. After seeing that there does remain a small demand from purists, Jag have launched it with a Manual transmission as well. Such cars that have a clear and very pure purpose (light, nimble, rear-wheel drive, covertible etc.) do still come with Manual boxes. Another example would be the Subaru BRZ; light, nimble, low centre of gravity offered by a boxer engine, rear-wheel drive, and stick shift. The BMW M5, the quintessential big sporty fast saloon, can be had with a Manual box. Subaru WRX/STi comes with a manual box only, SRT viper, the bargain supercar, only available with manual. The Cayman, Miata, the list goes on and on like someone naively claimed that everyone advocating the fun qualities of a Manual box have never driven automatic, I believe it is the other way around. I have driven tons of automatics ranging from dual-clutch boxes in skodas to supercars, cvt trannys in Micras to audis and the occassionaly torque converter and I believe that those who cannot or simply will not see the fun of a Manual, simply haven't driven a car hard enough to sap the benefits of rev-matching and controlling the shifting of a car's weight around a complex bend. Sure you can argue that you draw the most immense pleasure when cruising with next to nothing going on with the car and I never said I would not recommend an Automatic to such a person. However, that still does not negate the benefits of a Manual when pushing your car to the limits

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

I never said I would not recommend an Automatic to such a person. However, that still does not negate the benefits of a Manual when pushing your car to the limits

Most people buy manuals not because they love changing gears manually or because they want to "push it to the limits". For the majority, it is an economic decision. The same people would have bought an automatic had it been cheaper (or even same price) than manual.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Most people buy manuals not because they love changing gears manually or because they want to "push it to the limits". For the majority, it is an economic decision. The same people would have bought an automatic had it been cheaper (or even same price) than manual.

Point being? Not everyone drives a car hard? Uhh...Okay..that still means that the benefits of a Manual are negated?

[itwasntme]

Sick and tired of changing gears in my Cruze during my 65 km to-and-fro Bangalore commute. Hoping to change within 12 months to a automatic sedan or SUV.

Its going to be either a good old fashioned torque converter automatic or a DSG. No CVT for me as I don't like the 'rubber-band' effect. Although never driven one, have awful memories of our Kolkata Ambassadors' worn clutches :-).

Call it OCD but in my mind, increase in engine speed should be directly accompanied by rise in speed also :-)

Eyeing the 2016 Superb and Passat!

[civic-sense]

Originally Posted by IshaanIan

Point being? Not everyone drives a car hard? Uhh...Okay..that still means that the benefits of a Manual are negated?

The question is not about which is better. But about why people don't buy automatics. If automatics were cheaper, people would have bought them in droves no matter what.

[IshaanIan]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

The question is not about which is better. But about why people don't buy automatics. If automatics were cheaper, people would have bought them in droves no matter what.

if you read my post carefully you will understand what it is directed to. Never said automatics are not more practical nor did I state either was better.

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by civic-sense

Most people buy manuals not because they love changing gears manually or because they want to "push it to the limits". For the majority, it is an economic decision. The same people would have bought an automatic had it been cheaper (or even same price) than manual.

Is this your opinion or is it the result of a market study? The results of the poll on this thread suggests performance to be more important than pricing.

[SchumiFan]

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

Is this your opinion or is it the result of a market study? The results of the poll on this thread suggests performance to be more important than pricing.

Wasn't directed at me but still giving my opinion.

Considering that the AT's cost almost a lakh more than their MT counterparts for the same variant, it makes sense to think most people will go for the MT and the 90K-1L savings in their pocket

Also most cars sold in the country are below the 10L margin making the difference in the amount between AT and MT a lot more visible.

[noopster]

Originally Posted by SchumiFan

Considering that the AT's cost almost a lakh more than their MT counterparts for the same variant, it makes sense to think most people will go for the MT and the 90K-1L savings in their pocket

Fair point. When I was buying the Vento, it was a straight choice between diesel MT and petrol AT since a diesel AT wasn't available. Price-wise there was little difference so it was easier. If I were to make the same choice today, I would be comparing a petrol AT with a diesel AT with a significant price difference, maybe around a lakh or even more.
This is the same reason presumably why Hyundai and Maruti insist on not equipping their highest variants with an AT. They don't want to go beyond a certain price point and hence compromise on essential safety features in the AT versions.

[Lalvaz]

Originally Posted by noopster

Fair point. When I was buying the Vento, it was a straight choice between diesel MT and petrol AT since a diesel AT wasn't available. Price-wise there was little difference so it was easier. If I were to make the same choice today, I would be comparing a petrol AT with a diesel AT with a significant price difference, maybe around a lakh or even more.
This is the same reason presumably why Hyundai and Maruti insist on not equipping their highest variants with an AT. They don't want to go beyond a certain price point and hence compromise on essential safety features in the AT versions.

Err, I disagree with your last statement. Maruti thinks that these safety features are not required in India. Did you forget the infamous interview by the gentleman at the helm of Maruti Suzuki who said that ABS and Airbags and other safety features are not required in the Indian market, and he basically questioned the effectiveness of these safety features too.

But we digress from the point of this thread.

While I do understand that price plays an important role in the decision to purchase a particular variant, but the poll results of this thread seems to suggest that its not the major factor. Performance of MT vehicles seem to be better and more enjoyable than AT. I tend to agree with the poll results too. Of course there's no denying the convenience of AT.

[SchumiFan]

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

he basically questioned the effectiveness of these safety features too.

Could you highlight where did he mention the supposed sentence?

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

While I do understand that price plays an important role in the decision to purchase a particular variant, but the poll results of this thread seems to suggest that its not the major factor. Performance of MT vehicles seem to be better and more enjoyable than AT. I tend to agree with the poll results too. Of course there's no denying the convenience of AT.

Around 53% of people are ready to move to AT if they are offered in the models they are looking to buy. Considering that the poll was started in 2011 and a slew of cars has been launched since, it could mean a change in results of the poll itself. With Tata getting in AMT models in Diesel as well and Maruti giving them in entry level cars.

Performance of cars in India is mostly anaemic, mainly in the petrol models and it just doesn't work to fit a 4-speed gearbox in it and find it not sluggish.
The likes of GT TSi have shown that low engine displacement and automatics can be just as or more fun than an MT.

Hopefully there will be more Turbo petrols in the future offered with ATs.

[ashua]

Originally Posted by Lalvaz

While I do understand that price plays an important role in the decision to purchase a particular variant, but the poll results of this thread seems to suggest that its not the major factor. Performance of MT vehicles seem to be better and more enjoyable than AT. I tend to agree with the poll results too. Of course there's no denying the convenience of AT.

The poll is only open to us 'auto enthusiasts' so gives you a somewhat biased view.

I don't claim to be able to speak for all of the non BHPians, but do feel that cost is the biggest factor followed by concerns of low mileage.
The cost difference is coming down with tech like AMT and as people are starting to value the convenience they offer over the cost, we are seeing the demand and supply of AT variants increasing (especially in the cities).

It is just a matter of time before AT becomes widespread and we see a flip situation with MT variants becoming an exception.

[JediKnight]

Originally Posted by akrish01

Aren't first & second gears provided in an AT for such situations? U can shift to second gears while descending on hilly terrain

When you have a long fast downhill section you cannot keep driving in low ratios. Have you driven from Shimla to Chandigargh, you are on slope for nearly 100km with most people doing 40-60kmph.

Let me quote bhpian Benipal0006 from another thread on his experience with AT fortuner to explain what i am talking about - "I have read your ownership review and I must say its really informative ahmed! Coming back to the issue I have lodged a complaint with Toyota and have been given a number as well but even they have forgotten about it I think lol! Also I wanted to know have you experienced any juddering from the brakes after a session of spirited driving? I have covered around 25000 kms on brutus since I usually use him for cross country trips and had a scary experience on my recent trip to mcleodganj where some quick bursts to make up time saw heavy use of brakes and then they started juddering! I have been running brutus on stock tyres but have installed plati chrome 6 spoke alloys which provide greater cooling to the pads for sure but the dealer says the brake pads have worn out and shall have to be changed at the 30 km service! I mean I have a trusted crv which has done around 80000 kms and its brake pads need no change at such an interval! I guess its more to do with the absolute lack of engine braking in the fortuner which can get a bit scary as I experienced on my drive to Manali recently!"

Originally Posted by ashua

The poll is only open to us 'auto enthusiasts' so gives you a somewhat biased view...

It is just a matter of time before AT becomes widespread and we see a flip situation with MT variants becoming an exception.

Most members of this esteemed group are city folks. Who more likely to be more baised towards AT than against it. If the poll was open to the masses , it would be even more skewed towards the MT. I don't see any threat to the MT position in the volume market for at-least a decade.