[vb-saan]

Originally Posted by anandpadhye

This is sad decision by VW, IMO.
1.4 TSi should go in Vento/Rapid.
1.8 TSi should go in the Jetta.

AFAIK, the Jetta is not with 1.8 TSi in other markets as well. The standard petrol engine for Jetta/Golf is the 1.4 TSI (122bhp or 160bhp). With a performance which can almost match the 1.8 TSi, and better FE, why should it be considered as a sad decision? IIRC, 1.8 TSI is the entry level petrol engine for the likes of Passat, CC, Superb etc.

Originally Posted by anandpadhye

In any case, the brighter side is - outdated petrol engines will be out soon. The 1.2 L petrols in Fabia/Polo are ridiculous.

Yes, in most of the markets, Polo and Fabia gets the 1.2 TSI. Infact, they even have the Yeti, Golf and Jetta with the 1.2 TSI engine.

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by anandpadhye

This is sad decision by VW, IMO.

1.4 TSi should go in Vento/Rapid.
1.8 TSi should go in the Jetta.

If they launch 1.4 TSi in Jetta, Fiat should capitalize on this and sell Linea T-jet aggressively. Only problem will be - the T-jet engine is no a direct injection one and does not have VVT as well.

In any case, the brighter side is - outdated petrol engines will be out soon. The 1.2 L petrols in Fabia/Polo are ridiculous.

^^ This is what the typical indian buyer will think.

I don't understand why people are so worried about cubic capacity. So what if it will have 1.4L engine and not a 1.8L.

Can anyone tell me why a Skoda Superb costing upwards of 20lakhs which comes with a puny 1.8L engine outsells the Accord, Camry and Teana which have larger 2.4L - 2.7L engines?

Going by this logic Skoda must have made a really sad decision to plonk in a 1.8L engine in such a large car.

Sorry for the sarcasm but I find VW's decision to plonk in a 1.4L engine in the Jetta a brilliant move. How many Laura TSI does Skoda sell compared to the TDI? I'm sure the ratio is 80:20 in favour of diesel if not more.

Imagine getting a Jetta with 1.4L TSI engine priced similar to Altis and Civic with better performance than both and better FE than both.

So would you go for a Laura 1.8TSI with more power but poor FE or a similarly priced Jetta with slightly lesser BHP but better FE as well a newer product.

[v.anand]

Laura engine too is TSI and capable of good FE, better than the likes of Civic and Altis with 95 RON fuel. There shouldn't be much difference in the real world between 1.4 and 1.8 TSI in our stop start conditions with big difference in power.

Problem is not 1.4 vs 1.8 VW engines. Its the state of tune. It must have been the super charged version with similar power. Bad move IMO.

[shivasuma]

Somehow I have a feeling VW is going to shoot themselves in the foot with the pricing. A diesel comfortline costs 20L OTR in Bangalore. They need to price it at <16L to get some decent sales, considering that the govt is going to increase petrol prices again. Plus, will VW dealerships come down from the pedestal that they think they are standing on? We will get to know pretty soon. All, I can say to VW is, you make good cars, but your pricing is atrocious.

[S2!!!]

Originally Posted by Chethan B G

0-100 in 9.8secs and 200Kmph top speed is underpowered? I think an official review on Team-BHP once the car is launched, can answer this question...

If VW price the Jetta on par with Laura, IMO people will have a choice. Jetta definitely has higher build quality WRT Laura?

Yes with you when you say let's wait for the reviews. The 0-100 figures you mentioned are from international websites right?? If yes then the story will be quite different with the Indian state of tuning for the motor. Atleast a second would be added to that timing IMO.

When you say Jetta on par with a Laura, spec vs spec it is not possible as Skodas are supposed to be placed below the VWs at all times (mentioned by a VW representative), so Laura will have a price advantage here. And the build quality in the Laura is slightly better than the new Jetta IMO, but that difference is negligible to the general buyer.

Only time will tell the fate of the 1.4 TSi Jetta.

[Chethan B G]

Originally Posted by S2!!!

When you say Jetta on par with a Laura, spec vs spec it is not possible as Skodas are supposed to be placed below the VWs at all times (mentioned by a VW representative), so Laura will have a price advantage here. And the build quality in the Laura is slightly better than the new Jetta IMO, but that difference is negligible to the general buyer.

Only time will tell the fate of the 1.4 TSi Jetta.

Just wait until 1.4 Tsi Jetta is launched - IMO, Skoda will also launch a 1.4 Tsi version of Laura. Similar thing happened after Polo was launched with 1.2 TDI - New Fabia was launched with the TDI engine (Earlier TDI-PD was discarded). Along with the engine, Fabia lost a lot more features and compromised on build quality too.

This has been the trend world wide. Skoda products are always placed below VW. Both in price, features and quality. This has been their marketing strategy.

[vinj14]

Really sad that people think VW has lost its plot by bringing in the 1.4l TSI engine! People should really move past their CC amusement!

I do agree that the enthusiasts would still go for the laura TSI if its priced similarly. But VW would really have an ace up its sleeve if they are planning to launch DSG variant. I mean for those who drive predominantly in the city in miserable traffic conditions, the frugal 1.4l engine + DSG + TSI would really be the ideal choice. This would also be a lifeline for those petrol heads pressured into looking at diesel cars due the market conditions!

One thing is for sure, if priced well, this would certainly drown the civics, altis and fluences!! The car would be head and shoulders above its competition wrt refinement, FE, acceleration etc etc ( except maintenance cost of-course ! )

Would people really want the supercharged 1.4l 160hp engine? Yes im sure they would! But tell them can fill only speed 97 and they might change their minds!

[sandeep108]

Originally Posted by Chethan B G

0-100 in 9.8secs and 200Kmph top speed is underpowered? I think an official review on Team-BHP once the car is launched, can answer this question...

If the decrease in CC from 1.8 to 1.4 can get us about 2Kmpl more? Does that make sense?

If VW price the Jetta on par with Laura, IMO people will have a choice. Jetta definitely has higher build quality WRT Laura. Also, a common man may not require the additional power of a 1.8Tsi motor. On the other hand, if the Jetta is priced more than the Laura - it can spell disaster...

IMO, Petrol heads will always go with Tsi & Diesel Heads will always go with TDI. It will be interesting to know the advantages a Tsi engine has over TDI, due to the way peak torque spread. Other than the fuel cost, maintaining TDI and Tsi engines should be similar since both are Turbo charged... OR am I wrong?

I should clarify here that it also depends on the state of tune. For Indian conditions, and petrol quality, I doubt that these figures will hold true. And if I remember correctly, Civic already has more or less the same performance / FE figures without any turbo/DI.

As I said, people buying petrol will be the low mileage and/or performance drives, where 1 or 2 kmpl is not going to matter much. In such a situation given a choice between 160 bhp Laura, 145 (say) bhp new Civic, why would I choose a 122 (probably detuned to 115-120 for our conditions) bhp Jetta? As I said, torque would play some role, but the heavier weight of the Jetta will negate most of that and if I was a torque fan, I would anyway go for diesel. So I would still call it relatively underpowered.

Now if they tune it to 160-170 bhp, then yes, it would be in contention against the competition. But sadly that state of tune would require 97 RON, which is not easy to find.

IMO VW should probably put the 1.8 TSi in the Jetta and 1.4Tsi in the normal Laura and keep the 1.8 TSi VRS. Price the Jetta in Civic/Altus territory and 1.4 Laura a notch or two below. Then see how sales of both jump leaving the Japs in the dust.

[anandpadhye]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

^^ This is what the typical indian buyer will think.

Nationality/ethnicity of the buyers is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by v.anand

Laura engine too is TSI and capable of good FE, better than the likes of Civic and Altis with 95 RON fuel. There shouldn't be much difference in the real world between 1.4 and 1.8 TSI in our stop start conditions with big difference in power.

Problem is not 1.4 vs 1.8 VW engines. Its the state of tune. It must have been the super charged version with similar power. Bad move IMO.

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by sandeep108

As I said, people buying petrol will be the low mileage and/or performance drives, where 1 or 2 kmpl is not going to matter much. In such a situation given a choice between 160 bhp Laura, 145 (say) bhp new Civic, why would I choose a 122 (probably detuned to 115-120 for our conditions) bhp Jetta?

You said it.

[Vid6639]

Originally Posted by anandpadhye

Nationality/ethnicity of the buyers is irrelevant.

Don't worry I wasn't referring to you nor was I targeting any demography.

I'm just saying european countries don't complain when they have a Golf with 1.2TSI engine and 105bhp as well as a Passat with a 1.4L engine then why so much fuss over a Jetta with 1.4L engine that has 122bhp and 200Nm torque?

The power output is similar to Altis and Civic and has way more torque.

Putting some speculation to rest about the 170PS tune of engine, I got this from wikipedia and confirmed it from VW forums.

So minimum grade for the 170PS output engine is 95 RON with reduce power output.

List of Volkswagen Group petrol engines - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

90 to 103 kW variants — 95 RON ultra-low sulphur unleaded petrol (ULSP)
110 to 125 kW variants — 98 RON 'Super Unleaded' ultra-low sulphur unleaded petrol (ULSP) - 95 RON may be used, but will result in lower power output

[anandpadhye]

Originally Posted by Vid6639

Don't worry I wasn't referring to you nor was I targeting any demography.

I'm just saying european countries don't complain when they have a Golf with 1.2TSI engine and 105bhp as well as a Passat with a 1.4L engine then why so much fuss over a Jetta with 1.4L engine that has 122bhp and 200Nm torque?

Europeans won't complain about 1.2 TSi engines because they are good engines. We don't complain about the 1.1/1.2/1.3L K series Maruti engines because they are good engines. The 1.2L Fabia/Polo engines sold here are crap. The 1.6L petrol in vento (and until some time ago in Jetta) here in India is nothing to write about. So VW should first start offering decent engines in Fabia/Polo/Vento.

Regarding 1.4L Jetta/Passat, sure, they are free to sell them, for whatever reason they find fit. The fuss is here in India, they may sell this as the only petrol engine on offer in Jetta while in europe they offer multiple engine options.

BTW, I use regular petrol in my TSi and have had to fill in remote places in MP, MH, KN, TN...it works without any issue, so Indian petrol quality is a non-issue - from my experience.

[vinj14]

Originally Posted by anandpadhye

BTW, I use regular petrol in my TSi and have had to fill in remote places in MP, MH, KN, TN...it works without any issue, so Indian petrol quality is a non-issue - from my experience.

The dip in perfomance and FE will be seen overtime by using below par fuel. The knowledgeable skoda engineers (not mechanics!) will reluctantly agree that using inferior quality fuel (below 95 RON) WILL cause a loss in low-end torque, acceleration and FE over time.

The manual says minimum 95 RON for a reason.

[anandpadhye]

Originally Posted by vinj14

The knowledgeable skoda engineers

Knowledgeable skoda engineers???
Where did you find them?
I have been looking for last 2 years...


But yes, I would use good petrol whenever I can. What can I do when I am on interior roads?

BTW, if I use good petrol consistently for a a few months (after a few "not so good" fills), will the low end torque and FE slowly return to normal?

And what is the reason behind the gradual degradation of torque/FE when using regular unleaded? GDI? Turbo? VVT? Compression ratio? Fuel does not go into turbo, so may be that can be left out. Compression ratio is not very very high, right? I need to look up the manual. There are other VVT engines around...so may be it's GDI?

Bigger question is - how does engine capacity relate to the fuel quality (with all other things being equal)? Why would 1.4L TSi be OK but 1.8TSi may not be OK with regular unleaded?

[avira_tk]

I think CC will matter to any buyer in this segment, no one wants a car that has an engine size found in high end hatches when they are buying 2 segments higher. The 1.4TSI will be alright in Europe where annual tax based on engine size is a deciding factor.

The 1.4 will have to be priced signifcantly lower, large european petrols are depreciation disasters, and people need a more convincing reason than "engine is technically advanced" to buy this. The usual Petrol to Diesel economics can be ignored here, in the Jetta category a diesel premium will always be recovered, the petrol only means higher running costs and marked down resale(if any).

Unlike the Superb which has a 4.5L difference between petrol and diesel which makes petrol a good choice, VW will not have that much playroom with pricing in this segment.

[vinj14]

Originally Posted by anandpadhye

Knowledgeable skoda engineers???
Where did you find them?
I have been looking for last 2 years...


But yes, I would use good petrol whenever I can. What can I do when I am on interior roads?

BTW, if I use good petrol consistently for a a few months (after a few "not so good" fills), will the low end torque and FE slowly return to normal?

And what is the reason behind the gradual degradation of torque/FE when using regular unleaded? GDI? Turbo? VVT? Compression ratio? Fuel does not go into turbo, so may be that can be left out. Compression ratio is not very very high, right? I need to look up the manual. There are other VVT engines around...so may be it's GDI?

Bigger question is - how does engine capacity relate to the fuel quality (with all other things being equal)? Why would 1.4L TSi be OK but 1.8TSi may not be OK with regular unleaded?

Haha yes! They are a rare breed!
This thread taught me quite a bit
http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/techni...an-petrol.html

I just told you what i heard from a trusted skoda engineer. Wish i knew more to clarify your doubts. But im guessing that even the 1.4l 122HP engine will require 95 RON fuel. But you'll be doing much less harm to it by using normal petrol when compared to a 1.4l 160HP engine!

To simply stay clear of all this confusion i've also jumped on the diesel bandwagon!!