[Turbokick]

Originally Posted by StarrySky

You have every right to post your comment on Fiat cars, but a member had posted his own personal experience with his car over a 2-year period and he doesn't find any of the alleged issues with the car - what right do you have to call him ignorant? By that logic is a happy VW Polo TDI owner ignornat too since he/she has bought a 3-cylinder car as opposed to 4-cylinder cars offered by the competition?

Alleged issues with the car? Did I say anything like that anywhere in my post?
My only point was competition has something better offer which he is 'ignoring'(in terms of engine mind you) and it is as simple as that.
That was unnecessary from his part to quote that point and ofcourse my obvious reaction to it.

Originally Posted by anachronix

I am sorry to interrupt your discussion mate, its been a norm here and its usually the folks who havent really driven or owned a Fiat have the problem with Peformance/A.S.S/Niggles of the Fiats while the owners are actually happy with their own products

I see the same in discussion over the past couple of pages!

When a motor company's sales fall from 2500 units per month to 500 units per month in 2 years with two excellent cars in their arsenal then there is something seriously wrong about the approach or concept.

I am just figuring out what might have gone against the cars.

Its not about 'how happy the existing Fiat owners are' , its about 'what it takes for non Fiat owners accept and own the Fiat cars'

[teknophobia]

Originally Posted by anachronix

I am sorry to interrupt your discussion mate, its been a norm here and its usually the folks who havent really driven or owned a Fiat have the problem with Peformance/A.S.S/Niggles of the Fiats while the owners are actually happy with their own products

I see the same in discussion over the past couple of pages!

There's nothing new about this. People who've never owned a diesel complain about the high maintenace costs of diesels, people who've never owned a Tata/Fiat complain about the terrible A*S*S, people who treat their cars like s*** complain about reliability and so on and so forth, everyone has an opinion. It's just something you have to live with.

[sanjaymugur]

what-ever it is FIAT owners are at BLISS, an IGNORANT non-FIAT guy thinks FIAT owners are at BLISS because FIAT owner is ignorant & a smart FIAT owner knows that the other FIAT owner is at BLISS because his FIAT has put him in BLISS because of its capabilities & charm...

loved the print AD in Deccan Herald about the new 2012 FIAT's.. "YOU DIVE DEEP TO FIND PASSION".. naysayers will come & say FIAT ship has sunk to bottom of ocean already...BLISS or IGNORANT you tell

[CareFreeKid]

Originally Posted by rameshnanda

More models, more options, more customization can be possible only if the manufacturer sells well. That said, currently I believe Fiat is working more towards the brand building than anything else.

Seems logical. I am really unaware of the business model these guys run on.

Originally Posted by rameshnanda

We are again getting back to Interiors . I agree with you that VW interiors are better than Fiat. But, also I must say that Linea's interior is better than than of some Japanese manufacturers.

Though Vento and Rapid have edge over the outright performance, Linea is all different beast on the highway. I am saying this because I own one and I have taken her till 170 with ease.

Maruti sells for its resale, after sales and wide dealer network, apart from being able to keep prices at bay due to huge volumes. Apart from these, each Suzuki model gets beaten by one or the other manufacturer in engineering and technology.

Highway composure of both Linea and Punto is exceedingly well; a class ahead I'd say. I test drove the old models last year for almost an hour each on the highway, and that's when I fell in love with them for their handling.

Though I should mention, the gear shift in Punto was quite sluggish and rubbery, when compared to others it competes against. So although you feel secure and in command on the highway, the little extra/long clutch pedal movement, and the sloppy gearshifts take the make the 'wow' experience a normal one.

Originally Posted by rameshnanda

The problem is we always search for issues in Fiat to blame Fiat. Every car has its own issues and no manufacturer is perfect as well.

Agreed. But each market has its own dynamics. While Europeans would consider a higher end engine, Indians often look at its frugality. Like wise, as you pointed, although there's a fan base that Fiat targets all over the world, be it with Alfa Romeo or whichever Fiat brand, it needs to pay a little extra attention in markets like ours. India is unlike others. A brand that works a little extra, a little harder, towards customer appeasement is a brand that the people recognize and respond to. Case in point VW (with their extensive marketing, advertising with a recorded voice device in newspapers, the introduction of Polo Cup very early etc.).

What I am coming to is, Fiat could have worked a little harder on the changes in 2012 variants. I have not driven the new models, but from what little I read, I did not feel much has changed - same engine options and a little spruced up interiors, modification to GC and a few new colors thrown in. Correct me if I am wrong. But these all seem superficial.

If Punto has excellent ride and handling, with a amply powered engine (1.4), give it a slick gearshift and less tiresome clutch pedal travel. Fine tune the gear ratios. If it is an 'eternal beauty' on the outside, give it interiors to match. Remove the uneven panel gaps. A better in dash audio unit would also be a welcome addition to the package.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by Turbokick

When a motor company's sales fall from 2500 units per month to 500 units per month in 2 years with two excellent cars in their arsenal then there is something seriously wrong about the approach or concept.

I am just figuring out what might have gone against the cars.

Its not about 'how happy the existing Fiat owners are' , its about 'what it takes for non Fiat owners accept and own the Fiat cars'

There could be many factors to it and I am 99.99% sure its not the 0-100 figures, power to weight ratio compared to other cars!

... and It matters how happy Fiat owners are and I dont think they accept a market dud and keep a happy face. I have owned a Fiat Linea for an year and I have never had any problem with the Performance/A.S.S or niggles.

[Turbokick]

Originally Posted by anachronix

There could be many factors to it and I am 99.99% sure its not the 0-100 figures, power to weight ratio compared to other cars!

... and It matters how happy Fiat owners are and I dont think they accept a market dud and keep a happy face. I have owned a Fiat Linea for an year and I have never had any problem with the Performance/A.S.S or niggles.

If Linea comes with a 110+ bhp diesel engine then FIAT might atleast see a 501th costumer in me. With the kind of suspension it has, it surely deserves one.
'The car with best dynamics is gifted with the least powerful engine in its class'
The fundamental goes wrong here only, no matter how hard you try to convince that Linea MJD is a Beast !
There are many cars in the market which started as duds but ended up being a decent or good performers. (Eg : Fabia,Logan,Superb etc)

Statisfaction of existing owners matter and I never denied that.

[anachronix]

Originally Posted by Turbokick

If Linea comes with a 110+ bhp diesel engine then FIAT might atleast see a 501th costumer in me. With the kind of suspension it has, it surely deserves one.
'The car with best dynamics is gifted with the least powerful engine in its class'
The fundamental goes wrong here only, no matter how hard you try to convince that Linea MJD is a Beast !

The Linea MJD is not as fundamentally wrong as you are trying to make it look. Its got good torque which is practically good enough for daily commute and can put most C Segment sedans with good torque figures on paper to shame on the road.

But I do agree that the Linea deserves or can handle lot more powerful powertrains and I would always be happy to buy one for myself too!

[prateekswarup]

Originally Posted by CareFreeKid

Seems logical. I am really unaware of the business model these guys run on.




Maruti sells for its resale, after sales and wide dealer network, apart from being able to keep prices at bay due to huge volumes. Apart from these, each Suzuki model gets beaten by one or the other manufacturer in engineering and technology.


Agreed. But each market has its own dynamics. While Europeans would consider a higher end engine, Indians often look at its frugality. Like wise, as you pointed, although there's a fan base that Fiat targets all over the world, be it with Alfa Romeo or whichever Fiat brand, it needs to pay a little extra attention in markets like ours. India is unlike others. A brand that works a little extra, a little harder, towards customer appeasement is a brand that the people recognize and respond to. Case in point VW (with their extensive marketing, advertising with a recorded voice device in newspapers, the introduction of Polo Cup very early etc.).

What I am coming to is, Fiat could have worked a little harder on the changes in 2012 variants. I have not driven the new models, but from what little I read, I did not feel much has changed - same engine options and a little spruced up interiors, modification to GC and a few new colors thrown in. Correct me if I am wrong. But these all seem superficial.

+1

For a brand that has been in India for around 13+ years (give or take a few more), I do not understand how they always seem to miss the mass consumer bandwagon. They must have had a good understanding of the Indian customer till now - what prevents them from becoming major players in the industry?

Their sales, even after the famed launch of Linea and GP, have been dismal in terms of volumes and overall market growth.

I fail to see how by making the best cars in terms of drive-ability, handling, performance, they are not able to sell more. The average Indian customer wants quick and affordable service first and good resale. Fiat, sadly, has not been able to capitalize on this. True, that there have been improvements, but for a company with that long history in the country, they should have worked on this after their Uno failure - which they have not.

So, should we understand that Fiat want to be a niche player and cater only to the enthusiast? Then why bring in 1.2 economy engines and trims?


What is the objectives of these FIAT Caffes? Are Indians going to book a GP / Linea on the showroom or on the A/S/S, reliability of the car as well as resale?

Even the youtube advert was a showcasing of passion. What about logic FIAT? The majority Indian consumer wants logic for purchase.

IMHO, what FIAT need is a definite brand strategy. Should we be a mass player or a niche performer? Based on that, they should roll out the necessary changes.

So, even if they are giving rain sensing wipers, increased GC, what about fundamentals of ownership - A/S/S, resale, quality of plastics? I wish FIAT would focus on these rather than some cosmetic changes.

However, no mistaking the fact that this thread has sparked a renewed interest for me to visit the nearest FIAT showroom. As far as the next purchase decision, I shall wait and see.

PS: This post is not intented to hurt any FIAT owners' sentiments

[Speed Pujari]

Originally Posted by Turbokick

Best in class engines ?
Which car are you considering?
Linea? 1.3 MJD is least powerful car in its class when compared to Vento or Verna or even the new Fiesta is relatively better. Give me one particular area where 1.3MJD actually outshines Vento's TDi or Verna's CRDi. Maybe the fueleconomy is slightly better but that doesn't make much of a difference.

A 9.5 lakhs 1248 CC Linea 1.3 MJD churns 209 NM@2000 rpm with 93 horses (with turbo lag indeed).

A ~12 lakhs 1598 CC Vento 1.6 CRD churns 250 NM @1500-2500 rpm with 105 horses. This has lesser feature than the Linea.

If rumors are to be believed a Linea 1.6 MJD is suppose to deliver 290 Nm @1500 rpm with 105 horses with wayyy more features than current linea (forget Vento's features).

(if they are so happy with india they can give a version with 300 Nm @1500 rpm with 120 horses).

So results are here if oranges are compared with oranges.

[sridharj]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

October 2011 - on road price for emotion was 6.62L Chennai. Now Dynamic is 7.18L. Thats 56k effective increase in on- road price, Chennai (Emotion -> Dynamic). Hope the discounts start soon enough.

@sridharj: Were you offered any discounts?


Previously - Emotion was 607,178 and on -road was 7,01,668. With discounts - it came down to 6.62L.

I believe his OTR is correct. Just that he was not offerred any discounts. Chennai is a lot more expensive than Trivandrum. (Swift ZDi was 7.06L trivandrum while 7.48L Chennai).

@crAzY dRiVeR - I have hereby attached the image of the quote I got. I personally feel Rs7.18 on road price of Dynamic is quite high. They should have kept the unchanged emotion price for the 2012 Dynamic model.

I think the discounts will follow if the numbers do not increase. So, I'm gonna wait till FEB to book my Punto.

I'm not able to enquire anything about discounts as the particular SA was not available in the showroom.

Regards,
Sridhar

[CrAzY dRiVeR]

Originally Posted by Speed Pujari

A 9.5 lakhs 1248 CC Linea 1.3 MJD churns 209 NM@2000 rpm with 93 horses (with turbo lag indeed).

A ~12 lakhs 1598 CC Vento 1.6 CRD churns 250 NM @1500-2500 rpm with 105 horses. This has lesser feature than the Linea.

So results are here if oranges are compared with oranges.

Sorry, but where did those prices come from?

Linea Emotion - 9,18,888.
Skoda Rapid Elegance- 9,19,000.
VW Vento Highline - 9,77,500.

Originally Posted by sridharj

@crAzY dRiVeR - I have hereby attached the image of the quote I got. I personally feel Rs7.18 on road price of Dynamic is quite high. They should have kept the unchanged emotion price for the 2012 Dynamic model.

I think the discounts will follow if the numbers do not increase. So, I'm gonna wait till FEB to book my Punto.

I'm not able to enquire anything about discounts as the particular SA was not available in the showroom.

Regards,
Sridhar

Thanks Sridhar.

For 90HP - what are the two variants? There was only one variant earlier - IFRC.

And previous OTR price for Emotion 90 HP in Chennai was 7.6L. Now its an attrocious 8.3L? What additional features has it got?

EDIT:

Ex-showroom price of Punto 90 HP emotion is now more than i20 CRDi Asta by almost 10k - 20k! Punto emotion 1.4 is 15k more than i20 Asta (O) with 6 airbags + sunroof

[CareFreeKid]

Originally Posted by sanjaymugur

what-ever it is FIAT owners are at BLISS, an IGNORANT non-FIAT guy thinks FIAT owners are at BLISS because FIAT owner is ignorant & a smart FIAT owner knows that the other FIAT owner is at BLISS because his FIAT has put him in BLISS because of its capabilities & charm...

loved the print AD in Deccan Herald about the new 2012 FIAT's.. "YOU DIVE DEEP TO FIND PASSION".. naysayers will come & say FIAT ship has sunk to bottom of ocean already...BLISS or IGNORANT you tell

@sanjaymugur, I liked your take on 'Ignorance is Bliss'! Quite apt for the situation people find themselves while purchasing Fiat automobiles.

Now, I own a i20 and I'm still unable to say for sure whether I am in state of BLISS by not purchasing GP or not. I am not against Fiat in any which way, but now, after Fiat having spent 14 long years in India and dangling with couple of good/not-so-good models too, it seems a little hard to digest that only poor marketing or brand penetration is to blame. Few things are wrong in their world-class products, and unless that changes, being in a state of BLISS or IGNORANCE doesn't really matter

[StarrySky]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

For 90HP - what are the two variants? There was only one variant earlier - IFRC.

I think it's just the prices for premium and non-premium colours.

And previous OTR price for Emotion 90 HP in Chennai was 7.6L. Now its an attrocious 8.3L? What additional features has it got

Again, is the previous OTR price including discounts? But yes, the 90HP MJD was about 35K more expensive than the 75HP Emo.Pack earlier (ex-showroom). Now the difference seems to be closer to 45K without any additional features.

It was rumoured in this thread earlier than the Linea T-Jet and Punto MJD 90HP will get upgrades in March. Hopefully at that time, they will get more features without any further price increase.

[GSM]

Originally Posted by CrAzY dRiVeR

For 90HP - what are the two variants? There was only one variant earlier - IFRC.

And previous OTR price for Emotion 90 HP in Chennai was 7.6L. Now its an attrocious 8.3L? What additional features has it got?

EDIT: Ex-showroom price of Punto 90 HP emotion is now more than i20 CRDi Asta by almost 10k - 20k!

90HP, Printed OTR in November was 8.05 / 8.10 Lakhs. It was never 7.60 Lakhs. [Both at VST Mtr Road and VST Anna Nagar]. 7.60 Lakhs must have been after all the discounts that were running in November / December. [When I enquired in November beginning, they had quoted 7.45 after all discounts at VST, Mt. Road]

The two prices are not for two variants. It is for Premium Colour. IIRC, FT Azure and Tuscan Vine (or whatever) were charged a premium of around 5K.

Cheers!

[Makesh]

Originally Posted by rameshnanda

Toward the end of December 2011, I heard that all Diesel Puntos are sold out through out the country and one have to wait for 2012 models for the Diesel Punto. Now, your post has surprised me a lot. We will have to carefully assess the car to make sure that they are not selling TD pieces.

They are not TD cars, as Area sales manager for Fiat gave the offers and not the SE.

There are also four Linea's all MJD with another dealer but yet to get a discount on them.